Which of the following do you consider as luxury brands?

[bob12345]

Which of these non-Lexus, Mercedes, BMW, and Audi brands do you consider as luxury brands (equivalent to those 4 brands) or merely as sub luxury brands?
I found many people consider these brands have ambiguous standings as luxury brands.

all in random orders

1. Acura by Honda
2. Buick by GM
3. Cadillac by GM
4. Infiniti by Nissan
5. Lincoln by Ford
6. Genesis by Hyundai
7. Volvo by ... um by Geely Holding of China

 

[Mark_888]

Which of these non-Lexus, Mercedes, BMW, and Audi brands do you consider as luxury brands (equivalent to those 4 brands) or merely as sub luxury brands?
I found many people consider these brands have ambiguous standings as luxury brands.

all in random orders

1. Acura by Honda
2. Buick by GM
3. Cadillac by GM
4. Infiniti by Nissan
5. Lincoln by Ford
6. Genesis by Hyundai
7. Volvo by ... um by Geely Holding of China

You could say the same about MB and BMW in Germany. Many people drive stripped down versions of those cars in Germany, and they are not necessarily considered to be "luxury" brands in their homeland. It really just depends on the model and options.

BTW. Lexus is owned by Toyota, and some of their cars are very similar except for extra features and soundproofing.

 

[AustinTX]

You could say the same about MB and BMW in Germany. Many people drive stripped down versions of those cars in Germany, and they are not necessarily considered to be "luxury" brands in their homeland. It really just depends on the model and options.

BMW, Audi and Mercedes-Benz are definitely considered luxury brands in Germany - even their entry level vehicles. Otherwise people wouldn't be paying thousands more for an Audi A3 - BMW 1-series or Mercedes-Benz A-class over same segment cars made by Ford, Opel (GM Europe), Renault, Peugeot, KIA, Hyundai, etc. I lived in Germany and surrounding countries (UK, Netherlands, Belgium, France) for almost 30 years, and these three brands are undoubtedly luxury or premium brands in Europe that people aspire to own. No one aspires to drive a KIA or Hyundai in Europe ...

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My opinion, and I'm open to debate on some of these:

Super luxury:

Rolls Royce
Bentley
(Ferrari)
(Lamborghini )

Tier 1 luxury

Audi
BMW
Jaguar
Lexus
Maserati
Mercedes-Benz
Porsche
Range Rover
Tesla

Tier 2 luxury

Volvo
Cadillac
Lincoln
Acura
Infiniti

Tier 3 luxury

Buick
Genesis
Chrysler

 

[Mark_888]

BMW, Audi and Mercedes-Benz are definitely considered luxury brands in Germany - even their entry level vehicles. Otherwise people wouldn't be paying thousands more for an Audi A3 - BMW 1-series or Mercedes-Benz A-class over same segment cars made by Ford, Opel (GM Europe), Renault, Peugeot, KIA, Hyundai, etc. I lived in Germany and surrounding countries (UK, Netherlands, Belgium, France) for almost 30 years, and these three brands are undoubtedly luxury or premium brands in Europe that people aspire to own. No one aspires to drive a KIA or Hyundai in Europe

In Germany, people aspire to buy German cars, partly out of loyalty to their own country (just like most countries and their indigenous car companies). I am not talking about the rest of Europe with regard to German cars, where it is treated more like a luxury item, similar to the US.

In Germany, there are many average citizens who buy (relatively) stripped-down MB C class cars, which are not that expensive in Germany. Ford, Opel (GM Europe), KIA, Hyundai are more economy cars in most cases, so they wouldn't be compared to a MB or BMW, or even a Lexus (Toyota), or Acura (Honda). If you were to look at the engine offerings of MB and BMW in Germany, you would usually see one or more engine options on each car that are smaller than those offered in the US. Most of the German cars marketed in the US start out with higher trim levels than those available in Germany. But obviously, an S Class or 7 Series is going to be a luxury car in any market.

In Germany for 2016, Audi, MB, and BMW had about a 9%, 9%, and 8% market share respectively, but had only about 1.2%, 2.1% and 1.9% market share in USA. VW had a 20% market share in Germany for 2016.

Renault and Peugeot are French, which is whole 'nother story in Germany (or anywhere else where quality is appreciated), so I would not expect hardly any sales of those in Germany.

Regarding your "Tiers," it is a reasonable try, but any such endeavor is doomed due to the wide variation (in price and luxury) of the various models in each line. As I said before, the MB C Class and S Class are not in the same league when it comes to price or luxury.

IMO, calling a Chrysler a luxury car of any kind is not something I could agree with.

I believe that Acura and Infiniti (and eventually Genesis) are on par with Lexus, except maybe for the Lexus LS, which doesn't sell much anymore (only 5514 units sold in USA for 2016). The market is rapidly moving to toward SUV's and CUV's, even in the Luxury markets.

 

[TEF]

In the case of M-B and BMW, they have the distinction of one of the few mass-marketed vehicles that are not badge-engineered. With the exception of Volvo, the other cars listed are just duded-up versions of lower-end brands. For example, the majority of the Infiniti line is based on Nissan engines and chassis. The same goes for Acura, Buick and Lincoln that are all based on Honda, GM or Ford platforms and engines respectively. In defense of M-B and BMW, their respective lines might share chassis and engines, but at least your not going to find common parts from VW's inventory as is the case for Audi. In my mind, a high end car is one not sharing 80% of it parts with, say, a Chevy, as done by Buick and Cadillac. Oddly, Genesis shares very little with other Hyundai's and is probably closer to a luxury brand than the majority cars listed.

 

[Mark_888]

For example, the majority of the Infiniti line is based on Nissan engines and chassis

That is a complete red herring. Back when MB owned Chrysler, they were doing the same thing.

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In my mind, a high end car is one not sharing 80% of it parts with, say, a Chevy, as done by Buick and Cadillac.

In my mind, a luxury car should stand on its own in a blind evaluation (where no one knows the brand, manufacturer, etc) as having luxury car attributes in terms of materials, workmanship, ride, handling, engine refinement, etc. That's what made Lexus a luxury brand success, but it didn't hurt that Toyota was already at the top of heap (along with Honda) in terms of mainstream brands.

 

[TEF]

Well if you're content buying a Buick Regal that is nothing more than a Chevy Malibu that is altered at the front and rear, than knock yourself out. However, that hardly makes the Buick a high-end luxury car and the Chevy will likely cost thousands less. My point is that the entry level Lexus sedan (that is essentially a Toyota Avalon) is only a "high-end" luxury car because of its higher price. Your so called luxury-car attributes already exist in the form of the cheaper Toyota Avalon. I am not knocking the build quality of Honda or Toyota, but asserting that the Acura and Lexus are just highly optioned versions of a entry-level car and in Japan are actually sold as Honda and Toyotas.
As for your claim that M-B (when it owned Chrysler) "were doing the same thing", you are wrong. There was no instance when M-B marketed a Chrysler as an M-B (and sold it for more). However, M-B did use its older chassis technology and marketed as the Chrysler 300 sedan and Crossfire sports coupe. However, these cars were always prices lower than the M-B equivalent - the exact reverse of what Infiniti, Lexus and Acura. Infiniti is another example of badge engineering. The G35 and G37 sedans, for example, used the same chassis, drive lines and engines as the Nissan 350Z. The only changes involved spring rates and stretching the chassic for the sedans' longer wheeel base. I own a 350z and looking under the hood of even the newest Infiniti sedans it's easy to see that the majority of parts are identical. Therefore, per your standards: ride, handling, engine refinement are present in both the Nissan and Infiniti sedans, so does that make my Nissan a high-end luxury car?

 

[glennk]

Can't believe I'm going to defend Mark, but here I go. TEF, look at how Honda corporate and other manufacturers operate. Luxury line cars are equipped with new technologies for "testing". Once they've proven themselves, they percolate down into the lower line vehicles. Does that make Nissan look more luxurious? Yes, in my mind. Do they keep the best navigation systems to Infiniti? Yes. Although, I'm now seeing this change with the Armada and Maxima.

Do I think higher line brands should share the basics? Yes, as it reduces cost for everyone. The first steps to creating a unique product (Lincoln Continental) are beginning to appear.

 

[Mark_888]

My point is that the entry level Lexus sedan (that is essentially a Toyota Avalon) is only a "high-end" luxury car because of its higher price.

That is just not true. The ES has luxury type refinements like more sound-proofing, better interior materials etc. The price difference between Toyota Avalon and Lexus ES is not that much, but it does cost more to add those features to the ES line. Also, as explained many times, any time you buy a luxury brand, you are paying for better dealer experience. There is no free lunch.

 

[Seejay]

Unless I am mistaken, the ES350 (when I bought my first Toyota, it was an ES250) was until very recently a pregnant Camry. I believe the Avalon was a US Toyota only--the latest Lexus ES is more Avalon than Camry. The more reputable car builders will make a car to a price point as best they know how, and then build the same car at a higher price point the best they know how. Usually, the more expensive car is a nicer car, having fewer compromises. Car makers have been doing this for decades.

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Cadillac and Infiniti. Volvo may have entered the market, but they still lack refinement, and nearly all of their platforms are now FWD. FWD disqualifies. That's fine for a Corolla or a Civic, but not an Acura. Ford has made too many terrible (and wonderful) cars with the Lincoln nameplate to get my vote--the latest offering is FWD--still a pregnant Taurus. I did not vote for Genesis because the track record is just too short. My car still lacks refinement in certain key areas to hit the mark. I have no idea how Buick got on this list.

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[jsmit86]

Infiniti shares engines, but car platforms are different, and have been for years. Infiniti is RWD based, but Nissan is FWD The last shared car platform was the I35 and Maxima in 2003.
The QX80 and Armada SUVs are shared.

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One other observation... I have owned 2 Infinitis; an I30, and a G35. Both were great cars, but I'll take the Genesis as being better refined in most aspects. Granted, the Genny is newer, as my G35 was a 2003, but.. I have driven several of the newer G37s, and they were nice, but not dramatically different than my G35.

 

[Mark_888]

Unless I am mistaken, the ES350 (when I bought my first Toyota, it was an ES250) was until very recently a pregnant Camry.

Yes, the first Lexus ES was very similar to a Camry. So what? That was 20 years ago. It is now based the Avalon platform, but has quite a few differences in terms of refinement, which is what a luxury car is all about.

The Genesis has shared engines with other Hyundai's and Kia's for quite awhile, although the current ones are unique to the Genesis in terms of displacement (the 3.3 V6 Lambda is used in many other Hyundai and Kia applications).

Again, I personally don't think uniqueness has anything to do with luxury. It all comes down to the quality of the final product. If a non-luxury car uses some of the same or similar components, I don't think that affect the luxury car status, if a car is in fact a luxury car. But lets face it, Genesis is considered as an "entry-level" luxury brand.

 

[forzza1]

BMW, Audi and Mercedes-Benz are definitely considered luxury brands in Germany - even their entry level vehicles. Otherwise people wouldn't be paying thousands more for an Audi A3 - BMW 1-series or Mercedes-Benz A-class over same segment cars made by Ford, Opel (GM Europe), Renault, Peugeot, KIA, Hyundai, etc. I lived in Germany and surrounding countries (UK, Netherlands, Belgium, France) for almost 30 years, and these three brands are undoubtedly luxury or premium brands in Europe that people aspire to own. No one aspires to drive a KIA or Hyundai in Europe ...

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My opinion, and I'm open to debate on some of these:

Super luxury:

Rolls Royce
Bentley
(Ferrari)
(Lamborghini )

Tier 1 luxury

Audi
BMW
Jaguar
Lexus
Maserati
Mercedes-Benz
Porsche
Range Rover
Tesla

Tier 2 luxury

Volvo
Cadillac
Lincoln
Acura
Infiniti

Tier 3 luxury

Buick
Genesis
Chrysler

I believe it is far fetched to view Chrysler and Buick as Luxury brands. I also don't understand why Tesla is regarded as a luxury sedan. I was actually shocked how cheap the interior of this car was when I went for a test drive few weeks back. I believe at this point the price tag is what makes this car looks like a luxury car.

 

[TEF]

My original point was that there are few mass-marketed luxury cars (and I am not talking about Bentley and Rolls Royce here) that are not just derivative of cheaper products. Oddly, the Genesis is one of them as are most models from M-B and BMW. With some research one can see that companies like Honda, GM and Ford build their luxury cars and cheaper models on some common chassis. Moreover, these manufacturers also use the same engines and drivelines across both lines. If one's definition of a luxury car is a Honda Civic stuffed with more sound insulation and relabeled as the Acura ILX than you're standards are lower than mine. In fact, most of the brands on the original list are derivative of cheaper models from the same manufacture. More importantly for the added cost, one is not getting much more than high-end options and sound proofing - not unique engineering.

 

[AustinTX]

I believe it is far fetched to view Chrysler and Buick as Luxury brands. I also don't understand why Tesla is regarded as a luxury sedan. I was actually shocked how cheap the interior of this car was when I went for a test drive few weeks back. I believe at this point the price tag is what makes this car looks like a luxury car.

I had a 2013 Chrysler 300 C prior to my current 2016 Genesis Ultimate. The car was excellent - distinctive exterior, luxurious interior, tons of features and very good build quality. The fact that it's based on an older Mercedes-Benz platform didn't hurt either. The vehicle was also almost trouble free (something I can't say about my current car), and the dealer experience (buying as well as service) was good. After driving the Chrysler for three years and the Genesis for one, I can say with certainty that there is not much that separates these two cars. Many of my friends were surprised when they rode in my Chrysler as to how muahc car that was, which is similar to the reaction I get now when I show them my Hyundai. The Chrysler 300 is a clear near-luxury contender in my eyes.

As to Buick, I recommend that you visit your local Buick dealer and have a look at the 2017 Buick Lacrosse - it's a definite competitor to the Genesis and another vehicle that ranks as a near-luxury contender.

With regards to Tesla, they are beyond anyone when it comes to a car ownership experience. They have technology that most car companies can only dream about - so far no one has come close to match them on battery technology, they have an ever increasing network of free super chargers, the car makes its own service appointments, for service they pick up your can and drop off another Tesla, they have the highest customer loyalty of any car manufacturer in the world, over the air updates that add features to the car continuously, super-car beating acceleration, the best safety standards for any vehicle in the world, the most advanced autonomous driving capabilities ...

If I were willing to spend $80,000+ on a vehicle, I would own a Tesla. I know three Tesla owners that would never buy anything else again after having owned their Tesla and I know quite a few people who aspire to owning one. They are a real challenge to Mercedes-Benz, BMW, Audi and Lexus and are taking potential buyers from these brands (two of my three Tesla owning friends had a BMW before, one a Jaguar). The new model 3 will siphon off a lot of C-class, 3-series and Audi A4 buyers - in my direct circle of friends 4 people have put money down on the model 3 already, all with the disposable income to buy other luxury brand cars.

 

[lobsenza]

Cadillac does make very good RWD cars - the CTS, for instance.