2015 Genesis compares to …

[ncee]

I see and read a lot where they are comparing the New Genesis to Audi's, Mercedes Benz, Lexus and such. Why don't they compare the car to other cars in its price range as well?

I for one, will be taking it for a test drive, as I didn't like the new Avalon and it's in the same price range - on the higher end of Avalons ($33,000 to $43,000),
and it seems to me to be a car these folks would consider before buying the Avalon. Now I feel comfortable saying the Toyota will have better resale value, but is that a real issue at this point?

Hey, I could be all wet behind the ears, but I think it's a battle on some levels that the Genesis will win, but hell, what do I know.

Skip

 

[GenesisCaptain]

The very first auto magazine review of the 2009 Genesis I read was in Car & Driver. Hyundai introduced the car as a BMW 7 Series, Lexus LS, etc. competitor. So, C&D did a comparison review of the Genesis versus the BMW 7, Lexus LS, and Toyota Avalon. Their conclusion was that the Genesis failed to compete against either of the full-size luxury cars, but it was a no-brainer superior car to the Avalon.

Hyundai probably wants to position the car as a mid-sized, luxury segment contender (BMW 5, Audi x6, MB E, Cadillac XTS, etc.). So, Hyundai would probably not compare or market the Genesis against the Avalon, even though many Avalon buyers might shop for the Genesis. It would diminish the brand strategy.

 

[Midnightsun]

I see and read a lot where they are comparing the New Genesis to Audi's, Mercedes Benz, Lexus and such. Why don't they compare the car to other cars in its price range as well?

I for one, will be taking it for a test drive, as I didn't like the new Avalon and it's in the same price range - on the higher end of Avalons ($33,000 to $43,000),
and it seems to me to be a car these folks would consider before buying the Avalon. Now I feel comfortable saying the Toyota will have better resale value, but is that a real issue at this point?

Hey, I could be all wet behind the ears, but I think it's a battle on some levels that the Genesis will win, but hell, what do I know.

Skip

The previous edition Genesis was comparable to the Avalon however the Newer edition is comparable to higher end vehicles which does not include the Avalon. Basically the newer Genesis is a step above.

 

[ncee]

The test drive could be interesting then.

While it maybe a step above, it will be interesting to see if it is:

- Quieter
- Smoother
- More Comfortable

Or is it like the new Avalon, in that, they made it more sporty, leaving folks looking for a Quiet, Smooth, Comfortable car having to look elsewhere.

 

[YEH]

The very first auto magazine review of the 2009 Genesis I read was in Car & Driver. Hyundai introduced the car as a BMW 7 Series, Lexus LS, etc. competitor. So, C&D did a comparison review of the Genesis versus the BMW 7, Lexus LS, and Toyota Avalon. Their conclusion was that the Genesis failed to compete against either of the full-size luxury cars, but it was a no-brainer superior car to the Avalon.

Hyundai probably wants to position the car as a mid-sized, luxury segment contender (BMW 5, Audi x6, MB E, Cadillac XTS, etc.). So, Hyundai would probably not compare or market the Genesis against the Avalon, even though many Avalon buyers might shop for the Genesis. It would diminish the brand strategy.

The Genesis was always Hyundai's midsize competitor as they already had the Equus flagship.

What confused the auto rags was Hyundai stating that the Genesis had interior room like a 7 Series.

The previous edition Genesis was comparable to the Avalon however the Newer edition is comparable to higher end vehicles which does not include the Avalon. Basically the newer Genesis is a step above.

As much as I disliked certain aspects of the interior of the Genesis, it was in a totally diff. class from the Avalon from the start (esp. the 5.0).

The only real reason why it was sometimes compared to the Avalon was similarity in price range (well, the 3.8) - tho it has also been compared to the ES and GS.

Now that the 2G Genesis has been bumped up in price-range - will see the comparisons with the Avalon (much less the ES) stop.

These days, we are more apt to see comparisons of the Azera and the Cadenza with the ES, much less the Avalon.

 

[GenesisCaptain]

The Genesis was always Hyundai's midsize competitor as they already had the Equus flagship.

What confused the auto rags was Hyundai stating that the Genesis had interior room like a 7 Series.

I have seen you post these comments a couple times. But that is not what I remember from that time. First, I do not think that Hyundai had revealed its plans for the Equus in early 2008. The prior gen Equus was just a big FWD sedan. So, at the context of that time, the Genesis was their big luxury RWD sedan, and that is the way it was presented to the marketplace. To add to that, the interior space of the Genesis is no where close to a 7 Series. (Well, maybe an E32 7, but nothing since then.)

C&D took Hyundai at its word regarding a big Euro competitor, and they did the review on that basis. I tried to find the C&D article, but I have not been successful. I usually toss my magazines after I read them.

 

[YEH]

I have seen you post these comments a couple times. But that is not what I remember from that time. First, I do not think that Hyundai had revealed its plans for the Equus in early 2008. The prior gen Equus was just a big FWD sedan. So, at the context of that time, the Genesis was their big luxury RWD sedan, and that is the way it was presented to the marketplace. To add to that, the interior space of the Genesis is no where close to a 7 Series. (Well, maybe an E32 7, but nothing since then.)

C&D took Hyundai at its word regarding a big Euro competitor, and they did the review on that basis. I tried to find the C&D article, but I have not been successful. I usually toss my magazines after I read them.

Even tho the 1G Equus/Centennial was FWD, it was still a flagship sedan with the Mitsubishi version (Proudia) being seen as a competitor to the Nissan Cima (Q45) and Toyota Celsior (LS400).

Also, the 2G Equus went into production in 2009 - so Hyundai had plans for it way before the Genesis was launched in the US.

And from Hyundai USA's press release upon the launch of the Genesis.

“While Genesis will compete for customers with cars like Chrysler 300 and Pontiac G8, our engineering benchmarks were Mercedes E-Class, BMW 5-Series, Infiniti M and Lexus GS,” said John Krafcik, vice president, product development and strategic planning, Hyundai Motor America. “Genesis provides a potent combination of performance, luxury and value. We think it has the opportunity to be an extremely disruptive force in the large sedan and near-luxury segments.”

http://www.hyundainews.com/us/en-us...ts-a-rival-to-the-worlds-premier-sport-sedans

There's a reason why Krafcik stated that Hyundai benchmarked the E Class and 5 Series and not the S Class and 7 Series.

And in the press release - there is a chart of the Genesis vs. Rivals and that includes the M and GS (along w/ the G8 and 300).

Again, C&D most likely got confused as to the comparisons regarding interior room.

The use of high tensile steel in critical areas in the unibody provides Genesis with 12-14 percent higher dynamic torsional rigidity and a lower body structure weight than the BMW 5-Series and Mercedes-Benz E-Class – despite having a substantially larger cabin than either of those benchmarks. Hyundai Genesis has more interior volume than Mercedes Benz E-Class and BMW 7-Series.

 

[GenesisCaptain]

C&D most likely got confused as to the comparisons regarding interior room.

I wonder if the confusion was intentional... Those quotes were August 2008. Hyundai ran Genesis commercials early 2008 and began their industry campaigns before that. The initial auto magazine responses were hitting at least six months before those quotes.

Mathematically, I am sure that the Genesis has more interior volume than a BMW 7-Series. An advertiser wouldn't lie. (It definitely feels bigger than a MB E, so I will not contest that.) However, anyone who sat inside a 7 and a Genesis would know that statement is a gross misrepresentation. I have never trusted published interior dimensions in cars (headroom/legroom/shoulderroom/rearhiproom), because the numbers simply have not aligned with observational reality (like something somewhat repeatable car-to-car, like knee-to-rear seat distance when the front seat is adjusted for my driving position). My trunk volume was officially published as 14 cubic feet; however, I could fit 18 cubic feet in the trunk with room to spare.

I guess I will have to settle with my memory of the Genesis introduction in early 2008 seems a little revisionist compared to Hyundai's later positions and quotes.

 

[YEH]

^ Got to be careful w/ articles (even in well-established publications like C&D) as they sometimes repeat something that isn't accurate (such as the 2G Genesis being tuned by Lotus engineers; Hyundai consulted Lotus but it was Hyundai engineers who did the actual tuning) or depending on the particular writer (there was an earlier preview of the 2G Genesis on C&D which was a bit snarky and listed the ES, etc. as the competition), but the writer who did the 1st Drive had a totally diff. tone.

In this C&D piece based on the Genesis concept (March 2007) - they referred to the 5 and E and not the 7 and S.

To date, equating driving excitement with Hyundai has been about as ridiculous an idea as expecting to find foie gras on the McDonald's Value Menu, but Hyundai truly believes the Genesis can change that—and with big targets like the BMW 5-series and the Mercedes-Benz E-class in its sights, Hyundai had better get it right.

http://www.caranddriver.com/news/hyundai-genesis-concept-auto-shows

And again refers to the 5 and E when talking about the Genesis while it was under late testing.

Too bad, because the interior should pass muster. Hyundai has promised it will pack the Genesis full of high-brow goodies—enough to compete with the likes of the aforementioned 5-series as well as the Mercedes-Benz E-class.

http://www.caranddriver.com/spy-shots/2009-hyundai-genesis-spied


And in the articles re the launch of the Genesis continually refers to the 5, E, M and GS.

 

[Mark_888]

Nobody cares. Each buyer makes up their own mind what cars to shop and which ones to buy.

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[italiabrain]

Nobody cares. Each buyer makes up their own mind what cars to shop and which ones to buy.

The entire advertising industry is a testament to this not being true.

The publicly perceived competition directly impacts the "cachet" of the vehicle.

 

[Mark_888]

The entire advertising industry is a testament to this not being true.

The publicly perceived competition directly impacts the "cachet" of the vehicle.

The purpose of the advertising industry is to convince companies that to spend money on advertising, so I would not take their word for it (conflict of interest).

Publically perceived competition? That may apply to brands, but not so much specific models. Lexus sells a boatload of ES models because of the cachet associated with the LS model. MB sells a lot C class (a really crappy car) because of cachet of E and S class. I don't think the Genesis has cachet just because a Hyundai marketing exec claims it is aimed at E class, or S class buyers (or whatever they claim).

Even if publically perceived perception did apply to specific models, my point is that the consumer makes the decision (as you said yourself, "publically perceived") and not the wishful thinking of marketing people. In the case of the Genesis, the competitive cars shopped by eventual buyers is extremely diverse and most of what marketing people claim is pure BS.

 

[YEH]

^ The LS400 wouldn't have been the runaway success that it was if the auto pubs hadn't given it very good reviews and hadn't compared it to the likes of the S Class and 7 Series.

If the LS400 had instead been compared to the E Class and 5 Series (or the top Cadillacs and Lincolns of the time), it likely wouldn't have been nearly as successful.

It certainly is impt. to Hyundai and to many buyers whether they know it or not.

While the 1G Genesis sedan has at times been compared to the likes of the GS, it really hasn't been included in the midsize comparison tests w/ the E Class, 5 Series, A6, XF, GS and M.

The 2G Genesis will likely be included in most of these comparison tests and it will make a diff. in how the Genesis is perceived by many potential buyers.

The success of the ES has more to do w/ the fact that it is cheap for the size of sedan you get, but yes, the cachet of the LS has rubbed off a bit on the ES (and RX) despite being FWD models that share platforms with Toyotas.

Otoh, the cachet of the LS hasn't rubbed off on the GS, esp. nowadays.

 

[PMCErnie]

The purpose of the advertising industry is to convince companies that to spend money on advertising, so I would not take their word for it (conflict of interest).

Publically perceived competition? That may apply to brands, but not so much specific models. Lexus sells a boatload of ES models because of the cachet associated with the LS model. MB sells a lot C class (a really crappy car) because of cachet of E and S class. I don't think the Genesis has cachet just because a Hyundai marketing exec claims it is aimed at E class, or S class buyers (or whatever they claim).

Even if publically perceived perception did apply to specific models, my point is that the consumer makes the decision (as you said yourself, "publically perceived") and not the wishful thinking of marketing people. In the case of the Genesis, the competitive cars shopped by eventual buyers is extremely diverse and most of what marketing people claim is pure BS.

Putting hip boots on.

 

[CanukV6]

Unfortunately (or Fortunately - depending how you look at it) a great many Mercedes and BMW's are purchased because of their badge, not because they are necessarily better cars. When I was looking for a new car in late 2008 my budget steered me towards 3-Series BMW's, C-Class Mercedes and Audi A4's. all with maybe a premium package and not much else. The ad's for the new Genesis intrigued me and once I got to see and drive the car, there was frankly no contest. The 2009 Genny may not have been quite as refined as the Germans in the ride/handling department, but in every other respect, it trumped them all. Advertising definitely got me into the Hyundai showroom, and led me to a car I really wanted to buy.

 

[sandy]

The purpose of the advertising industry is to convince companies that to spend money on advertising, so I would not take their word for it (conflict of interest).

Publically perceived competition? That may apply to brands, but not so much specific models. Lexus sells a boatload of ES models because of the cachet associated with the LS model. MB sells a lot C class (a really crappy car) because of cachet of E and S class. I don't think the Genesis has cachet just because a Hyundai marketing exec claims it is aimed at E class, or S class buyers (or whatever they claim).

Even if publically perceived perception did apply to specific models, my point is that the consumer makes the decision (as you said yourself, "publically perceived") and not the wishful thinking of marketing people. In the case of the Genesis, the competitive cars shopped by eventual buyers is extremely diverse and most of what marketing people claim is pure BS.

Wow!! I never realized the real purpose of the ad industry. What a mis-allocation of capital.....all those stupid companies spending over $150 billion a year in a futile attempt to position products and influence consumers. Thanks for the insight.

 

[Mark_888]

Wow!! I never realized the real purpose of the ad industry. What a mis-allocation of capital.....all those stupid companies spending over $150 billion a year in a futile attempt to position products and influence consumers. Thanks for the insight.

You are very welcome.

But seriously, I did not say what you claim I said. Advertising is not worthless, and I never said it was. Spending money on car advertising to make people aware of the features, prices, warranty, buyers assurance, or whatever, is very useful and I never suggested anything different.

What I said is that many times marketing "people" make claims about things they really don't know much about, such as what cars the Genesis competes with even before it goes on sale. It competes with whatever cars shoppers decide it competes with, not with what they decide it competes with. So-called "positioning" is highly dubious IMO. Obviously, a car company may want to decide whether their car is supposed to be a sport sedan (firm suspension) or a luxo-cruiser (complaint suspension), but trying to argue about whether it competes with specific cars such as Avalon, Lexus ES, Lexus GS, or Lexus LS is useless, because some people will cross shop all of the cars against the Genesis. Some people will consider a Loaded Genesis to get something similar to Lexus LS for a lot less money, and some people will get a Base Genesis that has a lot more features, etc than a similarly priced Avalon.

Anyone reading the discussions on this forum about what other cars buyers have shopped along with the Genesis would understand what I am saying. Having read almost every post on this forum since January 2009, I am surprised myself at the diversity of cars others considered before buying a Genesis, or are considering switching to for their next car.

On top of all that, is what the engineers were benchmarking against when they designed the car, which is a totally different story from market positioning. Relatively few Genesis owners would spend the money on the cars the Genesis engineers benchmarked against.

 

[Mark_888]

Advertising definitely got me into the Hyundai showroom, and led me to a car I really wanted to buy.

I have nothing against advertising, and that is not what I was talking about. I was referring to claims from marketing people (during interviews, etc) that they know exactly what cars they are competing against. If you read this thread, there are arguments about whether Genesis competes against 7 series or 5 series, S class or E class, etc. These kinds of claims (which are not advertising even when made by marketing people) are dubious to say the least.

 

[PMCErnie]

Most companies worth their salt conduct focus groups with current and potential customers. At these events they routinely determine from the attendees who their competitors are and how to keep people buying their product. I have participated in such focus groups for many products, including automobiles. As a matter of fact, it's a great way to earn some pocket money while also having some fun. Unfortunately, when I moved to Virginia 10 years ago I lost my focus group contact and have not reestablished a similar contact on my new home turf.

 

[Mark_888]

Most companies worth their salt conduct focus groups with current and potential customers. At these events they routinely determine from the attendees who their competitors are and how to keep people buying their product. I have participated in such focus groups for many products, including automobiles. As a matter of fact, it's a great way to earn some pocket money while also having some fun. Unfortunately, when I moved to Virginia 10 years ago I lost my focus group contact and have not reestablished a similar contact on my new home turf.

I belong to Hyundai Think Tank and have completed several online surveys on this subject. The problem is, having read this forum for almost 5.5 years, the range of cars that Genesis sedan competes with is very large, and cannot be narrowed down to saying exactly what cars it competes with. But my main point was that even if one could figure that out, it is determined by the buyers (and revealed in focus groups, surveys, etc), and usually predictions ahead of time by marketing people are extremely dubious. The marketing people are going to claim they know ahead of time what the competition is, but it is rarely as narrow as they claim. So arguments about whether Genesis competes against 7 series or 5 series are ridiculous. Additionally, that has nothing to so what what the egnineers benchmarked against when designing the car.