Possible discussion regarding the 2015 RSPEC

[dareaction]

The 2015 Genesis 5.0 V8 is 4,541 lbs, but the 2015 3.8 V6 is only 4,138 lbs. So a 3.3 TT might not need quite that much HP.

Well even the CTS V-sport is over 100 lbs greater than the CTS 3.6 V6. Also isn't there talk of AWD? That would put the theoretical Genesis AWD 3.3 TT R-spec at 4400+ lbs and ~470 hp to achieve the same power to weight ratio of the CTS V-Sport.

 

[Mark_888]

Well even the CTS V-sport is over 100 lbs greater than the CTS 3.6 V6. Also isn't there talk of AWD? That would put the theoretical Genesis AWD 3.3 TT R-spec at 4400+ lbs and ~470 hp to achieve the same power to weight ratio of the CTS V-Sport.

I have no personal knowledge of what will actually happen or if it will happen. But if they put AWD on a V6 TT, I assume that they would put AWD on a V8. Either way, the V6 has about a 400 lb weight advantage over the V8, and it is all on the front end of the car.

 

[dareaction]

I have no personal knowledge of what will actually happen or if it will happen. But if they put AWD on a V6 TT, I assume that they would put AWD on a V8. Either way, the V6 has about a 400 lb weight advantage over the V8, and it is all on the front end of the car.

N/A engine would have a 400 lb advantage yes but a 3.3 TT which would use a stiffer heavier block along with the weight of the turbos, plumbing, and intercoolers would add back weight.

 

[Mark_888]

N/A engine would have a 400 lb advantage yes but a 3.3 TT which would use a stiffer heavier block along with the weight of the turbos, plumbing, and intercoolers would add back weight.

I don't think the block would need to be any bigger, because remember that the 3.8 Lambda is a bored out 3.3 Lambda and the existing 3.3 block might be stiff enough, so it would only be slightly heavier than the 3.8, and not a different design. Some extra weight for the TT components, but not a large amount.

But as I said, someone else other than me started this rumor, and I have no idea whatsoever if there is any validity to it, nor do I care since I would never be in the market for an R-Spec (V6 TT or V8).

 

[dareaction]

I don't think the block would need to be any bigger, because remember that the 3.8 Lambda is a bored out 3.3 Lambda and the existing 3.3 block might be stiff enough, so it would only be slightly heavier than the 3.8, and not a different design. Some extra weight for the TT components, but not a large amount.

But as I said, someone else other than me started this rumor, and I have no idea whatsoever if there is any validity to it, nor do I care since I would never be in the market for an R-Spec (V6 TT or V8).

I'm not sure what the engine will be either. I just know that if they're serious about this R-Spec whether it's RWD, AWD, V8 or TT V6 it has got to have the horse power especially enough to compensate for the weight. The acceleration standard for these mid-level sport sedans (CTS V-Sport, S6, E550 w/AMG sport package, 550i w/M-Sport package, XF Supercharged) is between 4.5 and 4.2 sec with the S6 hitting times as low as 3.7 sec according to CarandDrivers test against the E63 AMG, M5 and S6.

I love the idea of a sport Genesis but it has got to be placed at the forefront of the class if they want it to be taken seriously. No half ass sport trim. The last R-Spec was a good place to begin but it has got to be a significant improvement just like new Genesis is compared to last generation.

 

[italiabrain]

I'm not sure what the engine will be either. I just know that if they're serious about this R-Spec whether it's RWD, AWD, V8 or TT V6 it has got to have the horse power especially enough to compensate for the weight. The acceleration standard for these mid-level sport sedans (CTS V-Sport, S6, E550 w/AMG sport package, 550i w/M-Sport package, XF Supercharged) is between 4.5 and 4.2 sec with the S6 hitting times as low as 3.7 sec according to CarandDrivers test against the E63 AMG, M5 and S6.

I love the idea of a sport Genesis but it has got to be placed at the forefront of the class if they want it to be taken seriously. No half ass sport trim. The last R-Spec was a good place to begin but it has got to be a significant improvement just like new Genesis is compared to last generation.

I agree with most of what you said, except that I would sub in the A6 3.0 for the S6 as the A6 is already in the high 4's in 0-60.

The '15 5.0 Can't hold a candle to the A6 3.0"T" until it's at freeway speeds, and it's not just a grip issue. Everything else in this class has gobs of torque available thousands of RPM lower than the 5.0 (and get better gas mileage while doing almost a full second faster 0-60). The engine is simply not competitive for the segment they want it to compete in. I don't think the peak power has to move up as much if they're doing forced induction. I think 450hp/425tq would be fine on a 4.6TT and that would require pretty minimal boost pressure. If they're adamant about making the power with displacement then they're going to have to go in the 480+ peak hp range just to try to close the gap with the E550.

Don't get me wrong, I like the Genesis and I may still buy one when I get a chance to drive a 5.0. I think the auto mags got it very wrong though... it's very much a budget luxury sedan -- the major cost-saving, corner-cutting came in not releasing a forced-induction engine on a new model when most of the people they want to compete with did so 2+ years ago as a refresh.

I would absolutely love to see a Genesis 4.6TT AWD that had the AWD tuned to be 80/20 by default and maybe even have launch control with a counter like Audi does on some models. Now that, I would pay $60 for.

 

[dreamerak]

I agree with most of what you said, except that I would sub in the A6 3.0 for the S6 as the A6 is already in the high 4's in 0-60.

The '15 5.0 Can't hold a candle to the A6 3.0"T" until it's at freeway speeds, and it's not just a grip issue. Everything else in this class has gobs of torque available thousands of RPM lower than the 5.0 (and get better gas mileage while doing almost a full second faster 0-60). The engine is simply not competitive for the segment they want it to compete in. I don't think the peak power has to move up as much if they're doing forced induction. I think 450hp/425tq would be fine on a 4.6TT and that would require pretty minimal boost pressure. If they're adamant about making the power with displacement then they're going to have to go in the 480+ peak hp range just to try to close the gap with the E550.

Don't get me wrong, I like the Genesis and I may still buy one when I get a chance to drive a 5.0. I think the auto mags got it very wrong though... it's very much a budget luxury sedan -- the major cost-saving, corner-cutting came in not releasing a forced-induction engine on a new model when most of the people they want to compete with did so 2+ years ago as a refresh.

I would absolutely love to see a Genesis 4.6TT AWD that had the AWD tuned to be 80/20 by default and maybe even have launch control with a counter like Audi does on some models. Now that, I would pay $60 for.

The A6 is a smaller car than the Genesis, the Audi A7 however is very close in size to the 15 Genesis and does a 0-60 in 5.4, all for a bit over 81k when load up to 5.0 ultimate levels.

http://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/2012-audi-a7-30t-quattro-test-review

 

[dareaction]

I agree with most of what you said, except that I would sub in the A6 3.0 for the S6 as the A6 is already in the high 4's in 0-60.

The '15 5.0 Can't hold a candle to the A6 3.0"T" until it's at freeway speeds, and it's not just a grip issue. Everything else in this class has gobs of torque available thousands of RPM lower than the 5.0 (and get better gas mileage while doing almost a full second faster 0-60). The engine is simply not competitive for the segment they want it to compete in. I don't think the peak power has to move up as much if they're doing forced induction. I think 450hp/425tq would be fine on a 4.6TT and that would require pretty minimal boost pressure. If they're adamant about making the power with displacement then they're going to have to go in the 480+ peak hp range just to try to close the gap with the E550.

Don't get me wrong, I like the Genesis and I may still buy one when I get a chance to drive a 5.0. I think the auto mags got it very wrong though... it's very much a budget luxury sedan -- the major cost-saving, corner-cutting came in not releasing a forced-induction engine on a new model when most of the people they want to compete with did so 2+ years ago as a refresh.

I would absolutely love to see a Genesis 4.6TT AWD that had the AWD tuned to be 80/20 by default and maybe even have launch control with a counter like Audi does on some models. Now that, I would pay $60 for.

It is unfortunate that even the 5.0 can't out accelerate the A6 3.0T but power and price wise the 5-Series, E-Class, XF, etc line up accordingly.

The Lambda V6 and the Tau V8 are great engines but the competition has gone force induction which as a result gives them much better power curves and acceleration. Hyundai needs to strap some turbos to these engines to compensate for the weight.

 

[italiabrain]

The A6 is a smaller car than the Genesis, the Audi A7 however is very close in size to the 15 Genesis and does a 0-60 in 5.4, all for a bit over 81k when load up to 5.0 ultimate levels.

http://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/2012-audi-a7-30t-quattro-test-review

The A7 is closer in size, but it's a "4-door coupe". All of those cars are more expensive than their standard sedan siblings. The CLS is more than the E as well. When configuring the car I come out at $73k to include all the Ultimate options, but that can't be done without bundling other expensive options that the Genesis doesn't have (e.g. having to get nightvision to get HUD). All that being said MotorTrend rates the A7 at 4.7 seconds anyway and it's their number I was using for the Genesis (5.2) so it's only fair to use their number for the A7 if we're going to compare them. The '15 Genesis V8 is much closer in 0-60 to the 6-cylinder Lexus GS 350 (5.4) than it is to the E550 (I can't find it again, but I think it was 4.3).

If the Genesis 5.0 gets judged as being directly in-between most competitors 6 and 8 cylinder offerings, and much closer to some 6-cylinder offerings, this whole bargain pricing thought evaporates quickly as the price differential shrinks to less than $5k and then you've got a huge gas mileage difference and the brand image / service differential remaining.

 

[italiabrain]

It is unfortunate that even the 5.0 can't out accelerate the A6 3.0T but power and price wise the 5-Series, E-Class, XF, etc line up accordingly.

The Lambda V6 and the Tau V8 are great engines but the competition has gone force induction which as a result gives them much better power curves and acceleration. Hyundai needs to strap some turbos to these engines to compensate for the weight.

I totally agree. Great engines, but for the serious luxury sedan market they're 2+ years behind without FI.

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[dreamerak]

It is unfortunate that even the 5.0 can't out accelerate the A6 3.0T but power and price wise the 5-Series, E-Class, XF, etc line up accordingly.

The Lambda V6 and the Tau V8 are great engines but the competition has gone force induction which as a result gives them much better power curves and acceleration. Hyundai needs to strap some turbos to these engines to compensate for the weight.

Car and Driver recorded a 5.1 0-60 for the Audi A6, Motor Trend a 5.2 for the 15 Genesis 5.0, these are real world numbers, yes the A6 gets better gas mileage but you can buy a lot of gas with the $16,000+ savings.

 

[tompass]

Any numbers on the 3.8 RWD and AWD?

 

[dareaction]

Car and Driver recorded a 5.1 0-60 for the Audi A6, Motor Trend a 5.2 for the 15 Genesis 5.0, these are real world numbers, yes the A6 gets better gas mileage but you can buy a lot of gas with the $16,000+ savings.

Honestly as far as class standards the average acceleration of the 6-cylinders of this class is around 5.5 sec. Wasn't the last Genesis 3.8 clocked at this time?

Average acceleration of the 8-cylinder class including cars like the twin turbo V6 CTS V-Sport is around 4.4-4.5 sec. Maybe even lower than that. I think Hyundai should be aiming for similar acceleration if/when they debut future engine/Powertrain options.

 

[italiabrain]

Car and Driver recorded a 5.1 0-60 for the Audi A6, Motor Trend a 5.2 for the 15 Genesis 5.0, these are real world numbers, yes the A6 gets better gas mileage but you can buy a lot of gas with the $16,000+ savings.

I don't get why you would cross the two sources when you can get both from one source. MT has the A6 at 4.7 and the Genesis at 5.2. There can be some significant differences in how 0-60's are run (rollout, brake torque, measuring equipment, etc.). MotorTrend seems to be on the aggressive side almost universally so you should really use their number for both or find someone else who has tested both cars using internally consistent methods. I'm not saying 4.7 is the "correct" number, just that it's safer to compare MT to MT or C&D to C&D. Even then, the A6 isn't on the fast end of the pack and it's a 6-cylinder.

The A6, 550i, and E550 are all in the 4's as assessed by the same mag that gave the 2015 Genesis the 5.2. The Genesis 5.0's primary target is arguably the E550, and it would require a full second drop in 0-60 to pass it.

On 0-60 the GS350 appears to be the closest luxury competitor, and that's not good company for the 5.0.

 

[dreamerak]

I don't get why you would cross the two sources when you can get both from one source. MT has the A6 at 4.7 and the Genesis at 5.2. There can be some significant differences in how 0-60's are run (rollout, brake torque, measuring equipment, etc.). MotorTrend seems to be on the aggressive side almost universally so you should really use their number for both or find someone else who has tested both cars using internally consistent methods. I'm not saying 4.7 is the "correct" number, just that it's safer to compare MT to MT or C&D to C&D. Even then, the A6 isn't on the fast end of the pack and it's a 6-cylinder.

The A6, 550i, and E550 are all in the 4's as assessed by the same mag that gave the 2015 Genesis the 5.2. The Genesis 5.0's primary target is arguably the E550, and it would require a full second drop in 0-60 to pass it.

On 0-60 the GS350 appears to be the closest luxury competitor, and that's not good company for the 5.0.

OK, found the MT A6 test, 4.8 0-60, that is a 4 tenths of a second quicker, but if you look at Q mile times the Genesis has narrowed the gap to 3 tenths with a slightly higher trap seed than the A6, so it's catching up. Of course all this is dependent on track and weather conditions. At the end of the day 3 or 4 tenths isn't going to really matter unless your into street or drag racing IMHO.
An E550 is over 75K when optioned to Genesis 5.0 ultimate level, not a contender at that price point, add in Mercedes high service costs and the Genesis looks even more attractive. The 15 Genesis is a value proposition with very good build quality, my wife has a Mercedes and I have spent a fair amount of time looking over E , CLS , and S class at the dealership. I then went to a Hyundai dealer when I heard about the new Genesis and was very impressed with the build quality, the finish of some interior materials may be slightly less than MB or Audi but the over all car is very impressive. At the 50-55K price point I don't see anything that can even come close in this size catagory. Plus I was offered 2K off msrp..

 

[YEH]

There is a rumor of a 3.3 TT that was posted by someone on this forum not too long ago. That actually makes some sense to me, because the 2015 5.0 is just too front heavy to be a sports sedan.

That was me, but haven't heard much about it since a while ago.

Considering what it would potentially be up against this engine would need to at least match the power of the current 5.0 V8 with torque in the 400+ range to help make up for the hundreds of extra pounds. I know it's rather easy for an engine of this size to make that kind of power especially since the CTS V-Sport uses a Twin turbo 3.6 V6 with 420 hp and 430 lb-ft. Add that the CTS V-Sport is slightly less than 4000 lbs compared to 4500 for the Genesis, and scoots 60 in 4.4 sec as quoted by Motortrend. For the Genesis to compare with what ever engine and overcome the weight problem it would need at least 480 hp and I'm not sure Hyundai is serious about putting out forced induction V6s with that kind of power.

Based on the rumblings from a while ago, it seemed like the 3.3TT would most likely be a replacement for the 3.8 or maybe be an additional powertrain option.

If Hyundai were to do a proper performance line, probably would be looking at a TT Tau, tho may not happen until the 3G Genesis and probably a smaller displacement V8 (4.0-4.2L).

I agree with most of what you said, except that I would sub in the A6 3.0 for the S6 as the A6 is already in the high 4's in 0-60.

The '15 5.0 Can't hold a candle to the A6 3.0"T" until it's at freeway speeds, and it's not just a grip issue. Everything else in this class has gobs of torque available thousands of RPM lower than the 5.0 (and get better gas mileage while doing almost a full second faster 0-60). The engine is simply not competitive for the segment they want it to compete in. I don't think the peak power has to move up as much if they're doing forced induction. I think 450hp/425tq would be fine on a 4.6TT and that would require pretty minimal boost pressure. If they're adamant about making the power with displacement then they're going to have to go in the 480+ peak hp range just to try to close the gap with the E550.

Don't get me wrong, I like the Genesis and I may still buy one when I get a chance to drive a 5.0. I think the auto mags got it very wrong though... it's very much a budget luxury sedan -- the major cost-saving, corner-cutting came in not releasing a forced-induction engine on a new model when most of the people they want to compete with did so 2+ years ago as a refresh.

I would absolutely love to see a Genesis 4.6TT AWD that had the AWD tuned to be 80/20 by default and maybe even have launch control with a counter like Audi does on some models. Now that, I would pay $60 for.

In order to compete with the Germans, Hyundai needs not only FI, but increase lower-end torque in their powerplants, develop a transmission better able to handle more torque in lower gears and lose weight.

Don't think Hyundai has really been cost-cutting since most automakers don't do any significant upgrades to powerplants until the MCE (which is when we'll likely see the 3.3TT if the last rumblings were accurate) and Hyundai did upgrade both the 3.8 and 4.6 (to the 5.0) Tau within one generation which is unusual (in contrast to Lexus which has been using the same V8 in the LS for nearly a decade and is in sorely need of an upgrade.

Aside from the DI powerplants, Hyundai needs to step it up in terms of weight reduction.

 

[italiabrain]

In order to compete with the Germans, Hyundai needs not only FI, but increase lower-end torque in their powerplants, develop a transmission better able to handle more torque in lower gears and lose weight.

FI and low-end torque are practically interchangeable terms for mass-market production vehicles.

Don't think Hyundai has really been cost-cutting since most automakers don't do any significant upgrades to powerplants until the MCE (which is when we'll likely see the 3.3TT if the last rumblings were accurate) and Hyundai did upgrade both the 3.8 and 4.6 (to the 5.0) Tau within one generation which is unusual (in contrast to Lexus which has been using the same V8 in the LS for nearly a decade and is in sorely need of an upgrade.

Aside from the DI powerplants, Hyundai needs to step it up in terms of weight reduction.

While it's true that most of those changes to DI were for a refresh on the Germans, there's nothing particularly special about that. Again, using the E550 as the benchmark they swapped the engine without a major refresh of the rest of the car and since then they've undergone another refresh for the '14 model since going FI with part of the E line on '12 models. The way I see it Hyundai would have released an FI engine with the 1G refresh if they were totally serious about competing, since that's when all the Germans were doing it. To not release one at launch on the 2G isn't even keeping up with "fast follower". Now if they release an RSpec with one in the next couple months that's moot...

 

[italiabrain]

OK, found the MT A6 test, 4.8 0-60, that is a 4 tenths of a second quicker, but if you look at Q mile times the Genesis has narrowed the gap to 3 tenths with a slightly higher trap seed than the A6, so it's catching up. Of course all this is dependent on track and weather conditions. At the end of the day 3 or 4 tenths isn't going to really matter unless your into street or drag racing IMHO.
An E550 is over 75K when optioned to Genesis 5.0 ultimate level, not a contender at that price point, add in Mercedes high service costs and the Genesis looks even more attractive. The 15 Genesis is a value proposition with very good build quality, my wife has a Mercedes and I have spent a fair amount of time looking over E , CLS , and S class at the dealership. I then went to a Hyundai dealer when I heard about the new Genesis and was very impressed with the build quality, the finish of some interior materials may be slightly less than MB or Audi but the over all car is very impressive. At the 50-55K price point I don't see anything that can even come close in this size catagory. Plus I was offered 2K off msrp..

IIRC The A6 dropped a 10th after a tune on more recent models of the 3.0"T". I get that you're not going to feel a slight change in 0-60, but half a second is significant. The shape of the torque curve and resulting responsiveness without a downshift is also worlds different on an FI engine.

Presuming you really can't feel or don't care about half a second or more, then there's no reason to pay for the V8 over the V6 in the first place.

The price argument can go on ad infinitum, but lets just say not everything in that argument (resale, loaner car, service dept, etc.) cut against the Mercedes. Regardless of the optioned-out pricing Hyundai very clearly wants to compete with cars like the E class. They also stated they wanted to push forward on their own instead of their previous model which they acknowledged was "fast follower".

If you don't like the E550 logic, try this... The Genesis 5.0 added 0.4 to its time as compared to the 2014 model while increasing $8k in "loaded" price. While doing so it also gets the worst gas mileage in its class as far as I'm aware. If price is your primary point then compare the Genesis 5.0 to the GS350, the performance gap is well within what you said you'd notice. The price differential there shrinks very quickly.

 

[dreamerak]

IIRC The A6 dropped a 10th after a tune on more recent models of the 3.0"T". I get that you're not going to feel a slight change in 0-60, but half a second is significant. The shape of the torque curve and resulting responsiveness without a downshift is also worlds different on an FI engine.

Presuming you really can't feel or don't care about half a second or more, then there's no reason to pay for the V8 over the V6 in the first place.

The price argument can go on ad infinitum, but lets just say not everything in that argument (resale, loaner car, service dept, etc.) cut against the Mercedes. Regardless of the optioned-out pricing Hyundai very clearly wants to compete with cars like the E class. They also stated they wanted to push forward on their own instead of their previous model which they acknowledged was "fast follower".

If you don't like the E550 logic, try this... The Genesis 5.0 added 0.4 to its time as compared to the 2014 model while increasing $8k in "loaded" price. While doing so it also gets the worst gas mileage in its class as far as I'm aware. If price is your primary point then compare the Genesis 5.0 to the GS350, the performance gap is well within what you said you'd notice. The price differential there shrinks very quickly.

The Lexus GS is a significantly smaller, lighter car, anyway Q-mile times are a much better indicator of overall acceleration than 0-60. 3 tenths between the A6 and 5.0 in Q-mile, not half a second . If straight line performance is your primary goal why not the new Impala SS? Yeah the old Genesis was a few tenths quicker to 60, but the ride-handling of the 15 is far superior to the old car according to everything read. The new Genesis is about so much more than just straight line acceleration. Would I like a faster R spec ? Sure I would, but if it is a few tenths of a second behind a Audi S7 I don't think it's a big deal.

 

[tompass]

Not much of a price differential between a 2014 GS 350 AWD and '15 Genesis 3.8 Htrac. Really wanted the 5.0 AWD but when it was determined that it was not going to be available in US market, I had to seriously consider other 6 cylinder options of which the GS 350 stood out at that price point. I think the Genesis will do well and is likely a big step forward for Hyundai.