Is the third generation Hyundai Genesis Sedan going to shrink?

[Sal Collaziano]

Is the third generation Hyundai Genesis going to get smaller? I'm putting my money on "yes". Why? Because I am 100% convinced that "Genesis" will become a brand within a generation or two. Either a brand or a sub brand. And a premium luxury brand needs a full-size flagship - and that's NOT the Genesis Sedan. It's the Equus. In my opinion either the Genesis is going to shrink or the Equus is going away - and I have a very difficult time believing the Equus is going anywhere.

As it stands the Genesis is a very large midsize car that gets compared to the Chrysler 300 (full size) - and NEVER the Chrysler 200 (midsize). If you look closely at specifications, the Genesis and Equus are about the same size. It makes little sense having two cars that serve the same purpose. Yes, the Equus does ride of a softer suspension - but that's about the only difference. Technology-wise, the Genesis isn't missing anything. Not all cars in a lineup are supposed to share to same technology as the top dog - which is generally the showcase for the brand's most impressive capabilities.

How is Hyundai going to separate these two vehicles? My bet is the third generation Genesis will lose a small amount of girth in width and length. Not enough to be ALL THAT noticeable to first and second generation owners who are looking to upgrade - but enough to make the Equus stand out as the fullsize car (which will also have a long wheel base (LWB) option).

"Genesis" is going to do pretty much what every luxury brand does. Read more...

 

[Mark_888]

Hyundai has revealed that it is looking at creating a smaller version of the Genesis sedan to compete with BMW 3 series, so I am not so sure the current Genesis will shrink. THe BMW 3 is just too small for many people.

I actually think it is more likely that the Equus goes away in the USA, or maybe the Equus goes even more upscale. I don't think Equus is making any money for Hyundai in the USA, but since it was designed for Korean market, they may keep it just for that reason.

 

[Sal Collaziano]

I'm not sure your feeling as to why the Genesis Sedan won't shrink - because cars sized like the BMW 3-Series are too small - because they certainly sell a hell of a lot. In fact, the 3-Series is the best selling car at BMW.

Indeed, Hyundai is going to make a new Genesis to square off with the 3-Series - but why would they make it larger - which also means heavier and offers worse handling dynamics?

Cars that compete with the 3-Series are all about the same size. Mercedes-Benz C-Class, Audi A4, Cadillac ATS, Lexus IS, etcetera...

Hyundai has revealed that it is looking at creating a smaller version of the Genesis sedan to compete with BMW 3 series, so I am not so sure the current Genesis will shrink. THe BMW 3 is just too small for many people.

I actually think it is more likely that the Equus goes away in the USA, or maybe the Equus goes even more upscale. I don't think Equus is making any money for Hyundai in the USA, but since it was designed for Korean market, they may keep it just for that reason.

 

[GenesisCaptain]

I am in the other camp. I think that the Genesis will likely stay the same-- slightly larger than the other mid-size luxury models (A6, 5 Series, E Class). And, I think that the Equus will get a little bigger to hang with the full-size luxury models (A8, 7 Series, and S Class).

At a glance, many of the stats on the Equus look similar to the 2nd gen Genesis, but the Equus feels much larger. At the same time, the Equus also feels (and is) smaller than the long-body über sedans. The Genesis would have to get almost a foot longer to compare against the big sedans.

The Genesis also has a weight problem. That sucker is porky for its size. It is a couple hundred pounds heavier than its mid-sized competitors, and it is within 100 lbs. of the much larger mega sedans. So, the Genesis needs to drop at least 100 lbs. (maybe more). That could cause it to shrink some, but I hope it doesn't.

I think that one of the reasons that the Equus sales are struggling is that the car has a horrible (in my humble opinion) suspension-- almost to the point that it is unsafe. The body feels like it is disconnected from the wheels. If you brake in a corner, the car will transition across the suspension travel and feel like the body is shifting laterally out of the lane. It is kind of terrifying. If you do an emergency double lane change in an Equus, it is very difficult to maintain control. And it has body roll on curvy roads that make people sick. When it gets its refresh, it should be radically better.

 

[Mark_888]

I'm not sure your feeling as to why the Genesis Sedan won't shrink - because cars sized like the BMW 3-Series are too small - because they certainly sell a hell of a lot. In fact, the 3-Series is the best selling car at BMW.

Indeed, Hyundai is going to make a new Genesis to square off with the 3-Series - but why would they make it larger - which also means heavier and offers worse handling dynamics?

Cars that compete with the 3-Series are all about the same size. Mercedes-Benz C-Class, Audi A4, Cadillac ATS, Lexus IS, etcetera...

My impression was that Hyundai was likely to make a smaller version of the Genesis sedan, in addition to the current one, not to replace it. I guess they could also shrink the current Genesis a little bit also, but I have no insight as to whether they will or not. But if they do come up with another smaller sedan, I personally don't think they need to shrink the current one. Dropping the Equus makes more sense to me (at least for the US market).

 

[ksoze]

When does a smaller Genesis turn into a loaded Sonata?

 

[TheKingInYellow]

My dealer insisted that the Genesis 'brand' is happening, but the next vehicle will be a Genesis SUV/CUV to compete with the Lexus RX, MB ML and BMW X3/5.

 

[Mark_888]

My dealer insisted that the Genesis 'brand' is happening, but the next vehicle will be a Genesis SUV/CUV to compete with the Lexus RX, MB ML and BMW X3/5.

No question that that a luxury SUV/CUV is being discussed at Hyundai. They are gauging customer demand for such a vehicle on the Hyundai Listens website.

There has also been talk of a BMW 3 series sedan competitor, but no idea when that might actually happen.

 

[Sal Collaziano]

At a glance, many of the stats on the Equus look similar to the 2nd gen Genesis, but the Equus feels much larger. At the same time, the Equus also feels (and is) smaller than the long-body über sedans. The Genesis would have to get almost a foot longer to compare against the big sedans.

The Equus feels bigger BECAUSE of that soft suspension. The Equus will likely stay soft to be the alternative to the Lexus LS in America. The one that Cadillac and Lincoln don't build anymore. However, the Lincoln Continental is coming...

The Genesis and Equus are both the exact same width. Sitting in the 2015 Genesis is actually nicer than sitting in the Equus. I don't know what they could do to make the Equus a nicer place to stay than the Genesis but they'd better think of something. Either that, or make the Genesis BIGGER and have IT for the company flagship. But I don't see that happening...

My impression was that Hyundai was likely to make a smaller version of the Genesis sedan, in addition to the current one, not to replace it. I guess they could also shrink the current Genesis a little bit also, but I have no insight as to whether they will or not. But if they do come up with another smaller sedan, I personally don't think they need to shrink the current one. Dropping the Equus makes more sense to me (at least for the US market).

The new entry-level, smaller Genesis sedan will be a LOT smaller than the current one. So they'll have no issue being side by side in a showroom the same way other brands have their small car and midsize car...

If Hyundai drops the Equus then they're going to need to make the Genesis bigger. But why would they drop the Equus? The Genesis "brand" needs a full size, a midsize and a small car in it's lineup. They might as well keep the ones that are currently building brand equity...

When does a smaller Genesis turn into a loaded Sonata?

The "small" Genesis sedan (future model) will be smaller than the Sonata. It'll be sized closer to the Elantra. The Genesis is essentially supposed to be the same size as a Sonata - midsize. The Genesis, however, should have better materials (leather, alcantara), better technology, rear wheel drive, more power, etcetera...

My dealer insisted that the Genesis 'brand' is happening, but the next vehicle will be a Genesis SUV/CUV to compete with the Lexus RX, MB ML and BMW X3/5.

Yes, this is the most likely scenario - but that 3-Series sized Genesis is coming in addition to the current Genesis Sedan...

 

[amartz]

Is the third generation Hyundai Genesis going to get smaller?

You mean, like back to the first gen size? And maybe loose a few pounds gained from gen 1 to gen 2?

When does a smaller Genesis turn into a loaded Sonata?

I was looking at loaded Sonatas when I changed my mind and bought my Genesis.

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[GenesisCaptain]

The Equus feels bigger BECAUSE of that soft suspension. The Equus will likely stay soft to be the alternative to the Lexus LS in America.

The back seat in the Equus is substantially larger than the Genesis rear seat. And I think the Equus trunk interior and deck size are both a lot bigger on the Equus. I need to sit in the Equus again, but I think that the arrangement of the side windows and windshield relative to the dash make that space larger for the Equus as well.

 

[Sal Collaziano]

The back seat in the Equus is substantially larger than the Genesis rear seat. And I think the Equus trunk interior and deck size are both a lot bigger on the Equus. I need to sit in the Equus again, but I think that the arrangement of the side windows and windshield relative to the dash make that space larger for the Equus as well.

The Equus has almost 4 inches of additional legroom and about 1 inch of additional shoulder room in the back seat. Everything else is pretty much the same. So it IS a little bit bigger - but not enough to justify it.

Right now the Genesis is a "tweener". If it grows a little bit, it'll be a proper fullsize car. If it shrinks a little bit, it'll be a proper midsize car. I just don't see Hyundai axing a model to make it work. As a "brand" Genesis needs a fullsize, midsize and small entry level luxury car. As it stands, it already has two and the other one is coming - but the two current sedans are extremely similar in size...

 

[BrazGenesis]

You mean, like back to the first gen size? And maybe loose a few pounds gained from gen 1 to gen 2?



I was looking at loaded Sonatas when I changed my mind and bought my Genesis.

But wouldn't that be an Azera?

 

[Sal Collaziano]

But wouldn't that be an Azera?

No, different cars. FWD vs RWD and AWD. Similar to the Lexus LS and ES. The Genesis would also have more features, power and more expensive materials (better leather, real wood, for example)...

 

[BrazGenesis]

No, different cars. FWD vs RWD and AWD. Similar to the Lexus LS and ES. The Genesis would also have more features, power and more expensive materials (better leather, real wood, for example)...

My point is different:

Except for the FWD of the Sonata and Azera Hyundai already has at least 3 cars eligible for their " Lexus line"

Sonata, Azera, Genesis.

It is a matter of defining the brand (Genesis?) and differences like we have
between Toyota and Lexus. (BTW - not all Lexus are RWD)
The work is 80% done.
It is hard to see a place to the Equus...but not impossible. Maybe later.

 

[amartz]

But wouldn't that be an Azera?

I did drive the Azera also. Basically a V6 fwd Sonata. Immediately went back to the Genesis. No comparison whatsoever.

 

[Mark_888]

My point is different:

Except for the FWD of the Sonata and Azera Hyundai already has at least 3 cars eligible for their " Lexus line"

Sonata, Azera, Genesis.

It is a matter of defining the brand (Genesis?) and differences like we have
between Toyota and Lexus. (BTW - not all Lexus are RWD)
The work is 80% done.
It is hard to see a place to the Equus...but not impossible. Maybe later.

There is no way that Sonata will be branded as anything other than a Hyundai.

 

[YEH]

Is the third generation Hyundai Genesis going to get smaller? I'm putting my money on "yes". Why? Because I am 100% convinced that "Genesis" will become a brand within a generation or two.

Doubtful (should be getting lighter for the next gen) as one of the big selling points for the Genesis is to offer more bang for the buck - one way being offering more interior/passenger space than the competition (even if Hyundai made the next gen Genesis a little smaller, thru packaging would keep the interior space - like what Honda did w/ the Accord).

Expect Hyundai to do the same w/ its new RWD compact sports sedan.

While maybe not being as large as the Infiniti G/Q50, it will probably be larger than the new C Class (one of the major reasons why the ATS and CTS have been struggling is due to the lack of interior room compared to the competition) - the LWB S Class (which is the only one offered in the US) is now 206.5".

Also, Kia will have the production version of the GT concept (slotting underneath the K900) which, due to its greater emphasis on handling, will be smaller than the Genesis (as the K900 already slots btwn the Genesis and Equus in size).

So size-wise:

Hyundai RK compact sedan < Kia GT/800? < Genesis < K900 < Equus

My point is different:

Except for the FWD of the Sonata and Azera Hyundai already has at least 3 cars eligible for their " Lexus line"

Sonata, Azera, Genesis.

It is a matter of defining the brand (Genesis?) and differences like we have
between Toyota and Lexus. (BTW - not all Lexus are RWD)
The work is 80% done.
It is hard to see a place to the Equus...but not impossible. Maybe later.

Sonata and Azera will stay where they are - competing against the Camrys and Avalons of the world.

Hyundai will soon have 4 luxury sedans - new RWD compact sports sedan, the Aslan (FWD - which would be the ES competitor), the Genesis and Equus.

The Aslan has been a sales dud for Hyundai in Korea as it is heavy (poor fuel economy) and dull-looks (both inside and out) - so not surprising at all that upper middle class housewives have looked elsewhere.

Doubtful that the Aslan would make it here in its current form, but then again, one of the bigger issues for the Azera (along w/ the lack of a hybrid version and not having a lower priced base model) is its lack of rear passenger room compared to the spacious Avalon.

As for the Equus vs. Genesis - the Equus rides softer since its on the old platform and was developed for the Korean market (so it has that old-style Buick/Cadillac ride).

The new Equus should have a much more planted feel as we have seen from the 1G to the 2G Genesis.

In terms of sizing - the diff. in length btwn the Genesis and Equus is comparable btwn the 5 Series and SWB 7 Series.

Genesis
196.5

Equus
203.1 - SWB
215 - LWB (limo)

5 Series
193.2

7 Series
199.8 - SWB
205.3 - LWB


The SWB Equus is already halfway btwn the size of the SWB and LWB 7 Series, so the new Equus might get an extra inch or so of rear passenger room - bringing it closer to the LWB German (as Hyundai likely won't offer 2 wheelbase lengths); the new S Class (only offered in LWB form in the States) is 206.5.

 

[Sal Collaziano]

My point is different:

Except for the FWD of the Sonata and Azera Hyundai already has at least 3 cars eligible for their " Lexus line"

Sonata, Azera, Genesis.

It is a matter of defining the brand (Genesis?) and differences like we have
between Toyota and Lexus. (BTW - not all Lexus are RWD)
The work is 80% done.
It is hard to see a place to the Equus...but not impossible. Maybe later.

As mentioned in one of the quotes below - the Sonata will never be in the Genesis brand. It's purely a Hyundai. It looks really nice inside and out - and offers a lot of features. But read reviews. The only engine available is a four cylinder that many owners complain is very loud and embarrassing. It's also front wheel drive only. It's not a luxury car - just a pretty luxurious Camry competitor.

I did drive the Azera also. Basically a V6 fwd Sonata. Immediately went back to the Genesis. No comparison whatsoever.

Yes, really no comparison. But it's a hell of a nice car...

There is no way that Sonata will be branded as anything other than a Hyundai.

Agreed. It's a luxurious car - but not a luxury car...

As for the quote below... A lot of people disagree with me on the resizing of the Genesis sedan, so I'll pass on the idea myself. No sense in debating about it any further.

The ATS and CTS are too small inside because while GM has figured out how to build a very nice interior - they don't know how to utilize space very well.

Doubtful (should be getting lighter for the next gen) as one of the big selling points for the Genesis is to offer more bang for the buck - one way being offering more interior/passenger space than the competition (even if Hyundai made the next gen Genesis a little smaller, thru packaging would keep the interior space - like what Honda did w/ the Accord).

Expect Hyundai to do the same w/ its new RWD compact sports sedan.

While maybe not being as large as the Infiniti G/Q50, it will probably be larger than the new C Class (one of the major reasons why the ATS and CTS have been struggling is due to the lack of interior room compared to the competition) - the LWB S Class (which is the only one offered in the US) is now 206.5".

Also, Kia will have the production version of the GT concept (slotting underneath the K900) which, due to its greater emphasis on handling, will be smaller than the Genesis (as the K900 already slots btwn the Genesis and Equus in size).

So size-wise:

Hyundai RK compact sedan < Kia GT/800? < Genesis < K900 < Equus

Sonata and Azera will stay where they are - competing against the Camrys and Avalons of the world.

Hyundai will soon have 4 luxury sedans - new RWD compact sports sedan, the Aslan (FWD - which would be the ES competitor), the Genesis and Equus.

The Aslan has been a sales dud for Hyundai in Korea as it is heavy (poor fuel economy) and dull-looks (both inside and out) - so not surprising at all that upper middle class housewives have looked elsewhere.

Doubtful that the Aslan would make it here in its current form, but then again, one of the bigger issues for the Azera (along w/ the lack of a hybrid version and not having a lower priced base model) is its lack of rear passenger room compared to the spacious Avalon.

As for the Equus vs. Genesis - the Equus rides softer since its on the old platform and was developed for the Korean market (so it has that old-style Buick/Cadillac ride).

The new Equus should have a much more planted feel as we have seen from the 1G to the 2G Genesis.

In terms of sizing - the diff. in length btwn the Genesis and Equus is comparable btwn the 5 Series and SWB 7 Series.

Genesis
196.5

Equus
203.1 - SWB
215 - LWB (limo)

5 Series
193.2

7 Series
199.8 - SWB
205.3 - LWB

The SWB Equus is already halfway btwn the size of the SWB and LWB 7 Series, so the new Equus might get an extra inch or so of rear passenger room - bringing it closer to the LWB German (as Hyundai likely won't offer 2 wheelbase lengths); the new S Class (only offered in LWB form in the States) is 206.5.

 

[BrazGenesis]

There is no way that Sonata will be branded as anything other than a Hyundai.

Agree as it is NOW.
But look at Corolla and lexus IS...

Lots of commonalities.
But they are not twins, of course.

Similar situations in the whole VW / Audi lineups.

The point is: Hyundai has to find its way towards Toyota/Lexus Nissan/Infiniti Honda/Acura VW/Audi.

Mercedes and BMW are the exceptions. And their entry cars are not that attractive.

Engineering, design, advertising, procurement, etc etc - all kinds of economies of scale are demanded.

Currently, a TV Ad for an Equus is a waste of money.

The name of the game in the future will be: economies of scale AND commonality!

Just my two cents.