Dry Startup noise

[Mark_888]

Why are you going to switch?

For one thing, I live in a fairly warm climate that can get very hot in the summer. Also, after having done a lot of research on the matter, I think there is considerable evidence that the 5W-20 recommendation is primarily based on CAFE objectives that the automakers must meet, and not necessarily based on engine longevity. This is a controversial subject, and not everyone agrees on the matter.

The Hyundai Genesis Sedan owners manual does allow for either 5W-20 or 5W-30 (despite specifying 5W-20 on the oil filler cap), so I thought I would try the later. I would not use a 0W-30 because that is typically a thicker oil designed for certain German engines.

However, I am running Mobil 1 5W-20 right now, and I think a full synthetic would be a big improvement over a conventional 5W-20, so I can't say for sure how much difference a 5W-30 would make, if any.

 

[Mark_888]

mark, STP will increase the film level on the lifters. The car would need to sit for a while to see if it makes a difference. My bike makes an awful racket if I use a 5w40 oil when I first start it up. If I use a 20w40, it is just fine. I only offered an inexpensive suggestion. If it makes a difference, then he would know that it is a "dry" condition. If it makes no difference, it is probably the fuel injectors priming. The 5 in 5w20 is the likely culprit if it is not the fuel injectors. STP will allow for a better film to be left behind.

I just don't like the idea of putting additives into the crankcase, especially on a new car, or even on a car still under warranty. If he has do it every oil change (or maybe even more often), then it does not seem inexpensive to me. I would not put in a viscosity higher then 5W-30 into the Genesis sedan, because of what is specified in the owners manual, especially if it were a full synthetic.

 

[ImInPA]

Mark, He is changing the oil anyway. STP is a basic additive. It is only a suggestion. If it fixes the issue he can simply change the oil and use a heavier grade.

 

[Gimli]

The Hyundai Genesis Sedan owners manual does allow for either 5W-20 or 5W-30 (despite specifying 5W-20 on the oil filler cap), so I thought I would try the later.

The owners manual mentions 5w-20, 5w-30 and 10w-30 as being acceptable. The caveat is that 10w-30 should not be used where themperatures dip under 0 degree farenheit.

I would not use a 0W-30 because that is typically a thicker oil designed for certain German engines.

0w-30 would actually be lighter (thinner), not thicker, at room temperature. At operating temperatures, it would be the exact same viscuosity as 5w-30 or 10w-30.

 

[ImInPA]

0w-30 would actually be lighter (thinner), not thicker, at room temperature. At operating temperatures, it would be the exact same viscuosity as 5w-30 or 10w-30.

This is correct. it is the first number which indicates the viscosity when cold. If the noises being reported here are lifter/valve related, these lighter weight oils are likely the culprits. The are not very good at leaving a film behind when the engine is not running. A 10w oil would definitely be better at leaving a coat of oil behind on the metal parts than a 0w or 5w oil would be.

 

[brihvac]

I just saw 5qt bottles of Pennzoil Platinum at Walmart for $20

The guys over at Bob the Oil Guy forums seem to prefer the Pennzoil Platinum over the Mobil 1. They say that they have had valvetrain noise with the Mobil 1 and the Pennzoil straightend it out.

 

[ImInPA]

They are both very good oils. If you truly suspect that it is a valve train noise, a heavier viscosity will likely silence it. To test this, an additive like STP can help. Also, a few ounces of Marvel Mystery Oil in your gas tank will lube the upper cylinder should it be a sticky valve. The lambda v6 is a pretty bullet proof motor. It is so unlikely you have a real problem.

I know I confused you with another user who had the same noise you are hearing, but, have you gone to your service department? Perhaps you could leave it overnight so they can hear it first thing in the morning.

 

[Mark_888]

I just saw 5qt bottles of Pennzoil Platinum at Walmart for $20

The guys over at Bob the Oil Guy forums seem to prefer the Pennzoil Platinum over the Mobil 1. They say that they have had valvetrain noise with the Mobil 1 and the Pennzoil straightend it out.

One or two guys who hate Mobil 1.

 

[brihvac]

They are both very good oils. If you truly suspect that it is a valve train noise, a heavier viscosity will likely silence it. To test this, an additive like STP can help. Also, a few ounces of Marvel Mystery Oil in your gas tank will lube the upper cylinder should it be a sticky valve. The lambda v6 is a pretty bullet proof motor. It is so unlikely you have a real problem.

I know I confused you with another user who had the same noise you are hearing, but, have you gone to your service department? Perhaps you could leave it overnight so they can hear it first thing in the morning.

Its at the dealer right now

 

[Mark_888]

0w-30 would actually be lighter (thinner), not thicker, at room temperature. At operating temperatures, it would be the exact same viscuosity as 5w-30 or 10w-30.

In theory that is correct, but in practice it is not. A company can label their oil any viscosity they want to and none are exactly the viscosity stated. Further there are no conventional oils that are 0W-30 because a conventional oil cannot perform over that range--a synthetic is necessary. So often times the difference between a 0W-30 and 5W-30 is the amount of PAO/ester base stock (as oppossed Group III hydrocracked base stock).

Industry standard measures at two points:
Kinematic Viscosity @ 40°C, cSt (ASTM D-445)
Kinematic Viscosity @ 100°C, cSt (ASTM D-445)

Here are various oils and their viscosity ratings at 40°C and 100°C:

Kinematic Viscosity @ 40°C, cSt (ASTM D-445):
Amsoil 0W-30: 56.6
Mobil 1 0W-30: 63.1
Castrol Syntec 0W-30: 66.8
Castrol Edge 0W-30: 72.0

Mobil 1 EP 5W-30: 61
Castrol Syntec 5W-30: 58.2

Kinematic Viscosity @ 100°C, cSt (ASTM D-445)
Amsoil 0W-30: 10.3
Mobil 1 0W-30: 11.0
Castrol Syntec 0W-30: 12.1
Castrol Edge 0W-30: 12.2

Mobil 1 EP 5W-30: 11.0
Castrol Syntec 5W-30: 9.7

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[Gimli]

In theory that is correct, but in practice it is not. A company can label their oil any viscosity they want to and none are exactly the viscosity stated.

Hahaha, you're funny. The methods to grade oil are standard throughout the industry and are quite stringent. Every oil manufacturer has to use the SAE test methodology if they want to be able to use the API symbols, which are a requirement for a great majority of car manufacturers.

Here's just one example of those SAE standards that every oil manufacturer has to meet and be tested against:

http://www.sae.org/technical/standards/J183_200603

Here's a summary description of the actual ranges of value accepted for each rating:

http://www.synlube.com/viscosit.htm#SAE J300 Viscosity Classification (Current)

 

[Mark_888]

Hahaha, you're funny. The methods to grade oil are standard throughout the industry and are quite stringent. Every oil manufacturer has to use the SAE test methodology if they want to be able to use the API symbols, which are a requirement for a great majority of car manufacturers.

Here's just one example of those SAE standards that every oil manufacturer has to meet and be tested against:

http://www.sae.org/technical/standards/J183_200603

Here's a summary description of the actual ranges of value accepted for each rating:
http://www.synlube.com/viscosit.htm#SAE J300 Viscosity Classification (Current)

Yes, exactly as I explained. Examine the link you provided:
http://www.synlube.com/viscosit.htm#SAE J300 Viscosity Classification (Current)

As one can see, the ranges are very wide, and for multi-viscosity oil only a "minimum" viscosity is required, so two oils with the same rating could have very different viscosities.

Note that the Minimum Kinematic viscosity for 0W and 5W are the same. The Low Temp. Cranking, and Low Temp. Pumping can easily be met by almost any full synthetic that is rated 0W or 5W. So it is really up to the manufacturer as whether to call their oil a 0W or a 5W weight and still be in compliance with the published standards. Thank you for providing definitive evidence to support my point.

As I said, there is sometimes a wide range between oils of the same rated viscosity. Further, it is hard to compare a full synthetic with substantial PAO/Ester stock against a conventional oil of the same "labeled" viscosity because the later will suffer viscosity breakdown over time (so it will either have to start out higher than the synthetic or it will end up less than the synthetic).

 

[Mark_888]

From the same link as posted above, here is an interesting discussion of the difference between 5W-20 and 5W-30:
http://www.synlube.com/viscosit.htm#SAE J300 Viscosity Classification (Current)

Thinner motor oils such as 5W-20 or even 0W-20 are becoming more popular these days and are even specified by some OEM's (FORD & HONDA) on new 2001 cars.

Although these oils are promoted as "energy conserving" they generally trade a gain of less than 0.1 MPG in Corporate Average Fuel Economy (CAFE) for shorter useful engine life.

FORD which has previously designed cars to have 10 year or 150,000 miles life has reduced the mileage life expectation to "beyond 100,000 miles" on vehicles that are operated on SAE 5W-20 Motor Oil.

HONDA only claims "useful life" as 7-years or 70,000 miles in EPA certifications for their CIVIC which uses SAE 5W-20 Motor Oil, while the previous model that utilized SAE 5W-30 Motor Oil was certified for 10 year or 100,000 mile durability.

Since both HONDA and FORD Warranty their NEW cars for ONLY 3-years or 36,000-miles the reduction in engine life expectancy is not a factor.

By contrast Mercedes-Benz recommends use of ONLY Synthetic Motor Oil that is at least SAE 5W-40! This is a recent increase in recommended viscosity from SAE 5W-30. Apparently customer research indicated that engine longevity is more important to typical MB customer than fuel economy.

 

[Gimli]

So it is really up to the manufacturer as whether to call their oil a 0W or a 5W weight and still be in compliance with the published standards. Thank you for providing definitive evidence to support my point.

You mean your point that:

I would not use a 0W-30 because that is typically a thicker oil designed for certain German engines.

...which you just yourself said means nothing?

Or this one?

By contrast Mercedes-Benz recommends use of ONLY Synthetic Motor Oil that is at least SAE 5W-40! This is a recent increase in recommended viscosity from SAE 5W-30. Apparently customer research indicated that engine longevity is more important to typical MB customer than fuel economy.

Which also disproves that last quote?

It's not easy to disprove what you say when you keep changing your story, which is why I keep my rebuttals to what I actually quote.

As one can see, the ranges are very wide, and for multi-viscosity oil only a "minimum" viscosity is required, so two oils with the same rating could have very different viscosities.

Wrong. The ranges are not that wide and they also do not overlap, so all oils within a specific rating will have similar viscuosity. Also the requirements of W (i.e. winter) oils (which have two ratings, one at 40* and one at 100*), are cumulative, not exclusive.

Note that the Minimum Kinematic viscosity for 0W and 5W are the same.

Yet the pumping specs are not the same, which indicates that an oil that is graded for lower temps will be thinner than one rated for a warmer temp.

The Low Temp. Cranking, and Low Temp. Pumping can easily be met by almost any full synthetic that is rated 0W or 5W. So it is really up to the manufacturer as whether to call their oil a 0W or a 5W weight and still be in compliance with the published standards.

Please provide a source for those statements. As they are, it's just baseless assumptions and extrapolation.

Thank you for providing definitive evidence to support my point.

I did not provide your baseless statements extrapolated from the actual information I've posted sources for. How about you post a source for your affirmations before claiming the point?

As I said, there is sometimes a wide range between oils of the same rated viscosity.

Just because you keep saying it doesn't make it true. I have provided actual, verifiable information, with sources, that prove you're wrong. How about you put up by providing the same level of information or just shut up? Repeating the same wrong information serves nobody.

 

[Mark_888]

I am going to skip responding to the above discussion, because I don't think there are any points raised that require a response beyond what I have already posted.

But let's go back to the original question about 0W-30. There are substantial differences between 0W-30 oils, particularly between Castrol and Mobil 1, as can be seen by the respective certifications:

Castrol SYNTEC 0W-30 European Formula:
Mercedes Benz 229.1, 229.3, 229.5
VW 502.00, 505.00, 503.01
BMW LL-01
ILSAC GF-3 (does not meet GF-4 energy conserving spec)
ACEA A3, B3, B4

Mobil 1 0W-30 Advanced Fuel Economy:
GM 6094M, GM 4718M (Corvette spec)
Ford WSS-M2C929-A
Chrysler MS-6395
ILSAC GF-4 energy conserving
ACEA A1/B1

The Mobil 1 0W-30 does not meet the MB, BMW, and VW specs listed above because it is a "thinner" oil than the Castrol European formula.

At the same time, the Mobil 1 0W-30 meets many of the American and Japanese car specs where a 5W-20 or 5W-30 would normally be used.

So, using Mobil 1 0W-30 would be acceptable in the Genesis, but IMO using Castrol Syntec European Formula 0W-30 would not be a good idea.

But previously, Mobil 1 did make a 0W-30 European formula oil (which I saw on some retailer shelves as recently as a few months ago) with similar specs to the Castrol Syntec 0W-30 (and maybe Mobil 1 still markets it in the EU), so make sure you are not using that one in the Genesis.

 

[Silver Streak]

Whats all the fuss about? Use the oil that Hyundaii recommends. You have a 10 year warranty which is probably longer than any of you will have the car.

 

[Mark_888]

Whats all the fuss about? Use the oil that Hyundaii recommends. You have a 10 year warranty which is probably longer than any of you will have the car.

I agree. They recommend 5W-20 or 5W-30 (10W-30 only if it is the only oil avialable where you live, which would not include the US or Canada).

 

[brihvac]

Got the car back today from the dealer. They re-balanced the tires (no more shake) and replaced the messed up drivers door rubber molding.

I dropped it off the day before so there would be a cold start this morning. They told me that when they started it in the morning the service manager and the tech were present and neither one heard any noise. Yea right!
You cant miss the noise. Well I have awhile on the warranty so if something happens they will have to fix it.

Im going on a couple hundred mile trip tomorrow, so by Sunday it should have almost 1000 miles. Sunday im going to change the oil to 5w/20 synthetic with a OEM filter.
We'll see what happens.

 

[ImInPA]

The Mobil 1 0W-30 does not meet the MB, BMW, and VW specs listed above because it is a "thinner" oil than the Castrol European formula.

At the same time, the Mobil 1 0W-30 meets many of the American and Japanese car specs where a 5W-20 or 5W-30 would normally be used.

Actually, the "thickness" of the oil has nothing at all to do with the why Mobil 1 0w30 does not meet the MB, BMW, or VW spec. It has to do with the additive package. The European specs for those vehicles require specific additives to be included in the oil. Additive packages are probably the most significant difference between oils rated at the same viscosity. Ash content tends to be significantly lower in european formulated oils (probably due to their higher number of diesel powered vehicles and their pollution requirements.)

 

[Mark_888]

Actually, the "thickness" of the oil has nothing at all to do with the why Mobil 1 0w30 does not meet the MB, BMW, or VW spec. It has to do with the additive package. The European specs for those vehicles require specific additives to be included in the oil. Additive packages are probably the most significant difference between oils rated at the same viscosity. Ash content tends to be significantly lower in european formulated oils (probably due to their higher number of diesel powered vehicles and their pollution requirements.)

Your are right about the additives. But some additive packages do have viscosity enhancers.