Base Stereo?

[VivienM]

I am not talking about sales tax. I am talking about taxes the companies pay, such as corporate income tax, property taxes, etc. They are also affected by import duties, which are usually higher in Canada than in the US.

Yes, and you're confusing us with Europe.

The French, for example, are great at this game. They have low income taxes. A 20% sales tax, but every price posted anywhere has tax included, so no one realizes how much tax they're paying. And then they have all kinds of huge taxes on employers that, of course, don't show up on employees' pay stubs.

So, the French taxpayer seems to pay VERY LITTLE in taxes... because the taxes are all hidden. In fact, of course, the French tax burden is higher than in Canada or the U.S., but unless you're an economist poring over the numbers, you won't realize it.

The Canadian taxes are not hidden (except on gas and alcohol - two things on which I will happily admit our two levels of government screw us on). The vast majority of government revenue comes from income taxes on individuals and sales taxes added onto the price of goods, not from corporate taxes, import duties, and the like.

I don't remember the numbers, but I seemed to recall reading somewhere that US corporate taxes were actually rather on the high side, and that that was one why US business were incorporating in Bermuda and playing all kinds of other tax avoidance games. But I admit that I haven't compared the tax rates lately.

I am not criticizing the Canadian system, it is simply a matter of trade-offs that the country has made. Obviously, citizens of Canada get a lot of benefits in terms of government provided services and worker friendly labor laws, in exchange for paying more for goods. There is no free lunch. To claim that my comments are right-wing propaganda is absurd.

I have no problem paying more in income tax. I have no problem paying 13% in sales taxes ON TOP OF THE PRICE OF GOODS.

I have a problem being told that, on top of that, there are all kinds of "hidden" taxes that mean that goods cost 10-40% more here. Especially when they used to cost 20-30% less before the value of the Canadian dollar skyrocketed in the past 5 years.

I'd guess Canadian corporate taxes went down in the last 5 years (despite public perception south of the border, we've mostly had governments that have lowered burdens on business and cut most non-health social programs in the past 15 years). Sales taxes (which are on top of the prices I'm complaining about, not included in them) went down 2%.

If we always paid more for things (which is the case in Europe, and there, I happily believe that the hidden taxes play a big role), I'd be happy with your explanation. But this is a new trend that has everything to do with changes in currency value.

For anyone to claim that multi-national companies are conspiring to screw Canadians, while giving better deals to Americans is crazy. If all these companies charge more in Canada for the same goods than they do in the US, then there is reason for that, and the reason is directly related to the cost of doing business in Canada, and not any kind of conspiracy.

And I think there are plenty of other reasons:
1) The American market is a bigger market. For German luxury automakers, for example, the US market is about 50% of their sales. For Asian automakers, the US market makes up 90% of the sales for some North-American-only models. If they're not competitive in the US market, whooops, their plant is running at half-capacity... or worse. If their prices are high in Canada, and people buy a few more cars from the competition, that's not a huge deal for their bottom line.

2) Stronger American competition laws. There have traditionally been stronger rules against resale price maintenance and other anticompetitive practices in the US. This may explain why, for example, electronics are sold at huge discounts off MSRP by US online retailers, while it's hard to find similar discounts here.

3) People seem to still keep buying. Importing cars from the US is half-legal, but you often lose your warranty, you have no access to financing/leasing from the manufacturer, it requires a lot of paperwork, etc... and the manufacturers try to prevent their US dealers from selling to Canadians. So, if people are willing to pay a ridiculous price, who are the manufacturers to lower that price?

Blaming our tax system, though... I just can't accept.

And I have one question for you: if taxes or any other factor I've listed above are the reason for this, why are multinational automakers
a) voiding warranties for US-purchased vehicles in Canada, and
b) prohibiting their US dealers from selling vehicles to Canada?
Sure, grey market imports are bad for their Canadian dealers to some extent (they still get the more profitable service business, though...). In fact, some of these dealers import US cars and sell them on their used car side.
But for the manufacturer, if after taxes they make the same amount of money or more on a US-sold car (like you're implying), why would they care about what country the car was sold in?

 

[Mark_888]

And I have one question for you: if taxes or any other factor I've listed above are the reason for this, why are multinational automakers
a) voiding warranties for US-purchased vehicles in Canada, and
b) prohibiting their US dealers from selling vehicles to Canada?
Sure, grey market imports are bad for their Canadian dealers to some extent (they still get the more profitable service business, though...). In fact, some of these dealers import US cars and sell them on their used car side.
But for the manufacturer, if after taxes they make the same amount of money or more on a US-sold car (like you're implying), why would they care about what country the car was sold in?

Because:

a). For the same reason that if I buy a Canon Camera in Japan (where Canon is headquartered), and return to the USA, it is not warrantied by Canon USA. Warranties are not a manufacturing expense, they are a marketing expense (ask a Chartered Accountant or CPA). Warranties not only vary because of different marketing strategy that is used in each part of the world (or each country), they vary because each country (and sometimes each US state) has their own rules about how warranties must work. Therefore warranties must comply with local regulations, and a world-wide warranty is usually not practical.

b) The same reason why an authorized Canon dealer outside the US is not allowed to sell cameras to customers inside the US. You can buy grey market Canon cameras in the US (for less than you can get a one from an authorized dealer in the US, but without a Canon warranty--you get a warranty from the retailer only), so it is not just a conspiracy against Canada (as you seem to suggest). Microsoft sells its Windows and Office software for significantly less money in China than they charge in the US.

As to why the companies would care if dealers sold across the border, that would undermine the Canadian dealers who sell cars that comply with Canadian laws (such as daytime running lights, etc). Eventually they feel it would damage their business.

As I said, I am not "blaming" your system, because you get a lot of things that Americans don't have in exchange for paying higher prices. One reason that many countries don't enforce price competition laws as strongly as the US is that it typically leads to a loss of jobs as the "middle men" are no longer protected when companies cannot enforce an actual selling price by retailers. What happens is that goods tend be sold only by more efficient large companies with direct links to manufacturers (no distributors or middle men), often no or few sales people, etc, and less customer service. Many EU countries (and to some extent Canada) fight against those practices because they lead to a loss of jobs in the distribution, sales, and customer service channels. So you pay more, but have more jobs (or better job security), at least in theory.

What I would suggest is that you and the other true believers (I am sure there are millions like you) form your own company that would sell stuff in Canada for less money than everyone else, and your business would grow to such a large degree that you would become extremely wealthy, while at the same time lowering the cost of products to people in Canada. They will erect statues to honor you.

You can have one more shot, but I will not respond (hopefully) since we are getting way off-topic.

 

[VivienM]

a). For the same reason that if I buy a Canon Camera in Japan (where Canon is headquartered), and return to the USA, it is not warrantied by Canon USA. Warranties are not a manufacturing expense, they are a marketing expense (ask a Chartered Accountant or CPA). Warranties not only vary because of different marketing strategy that is used in each part of the world (or each country), they vary because each country (and sometimes each US state) has their own rules about how warranties must work. Therefore warranties must comply with local regulations, and a world-wide warranty is usually not practical.

Funny thing is, until the Canadian dollar went up a few years ago, most automakers DID honour cross-country warranties. Some (e.g. Audi) still do.

I'm sympathetic to your argument. But if it's so hard to do, why did they do it a few years ago?

Simple answer: until a few years ago, they were just being nice to the 5-10 Americans who moved north every year and brought their new car with them. No one else would have had a US-bought car in Canada. Then all of a sudden, importing cars from the US became big business...

b) The same reason why an authorized Canon dealer outside the US is not allowed to sell cameras to customers inside the US. You can buy grey market Canon cameras in the US (for less than you can get a one from an authorized dealer in the US, but without a Canon warranty--you get a warranty from the retailer only), so it is not just a conspiracy against Canada (as you seem to suggest). Microsoft sells its Windows and Office software for significantly less money in China than they charge in the US.

And an authorized Canon dealer inside the US is not allowed to sell to Canadians either. So we pay more for that...

Funny you mention Canon - I was just shopping for a Canon camera. Normal price here: $399 (CAD). Amazon.com US price is $299 (USD). It's on sale for a week here for $320 (CAD), which I think is extremely reasonable given exchange rates ($299USD =~ $315CAD), any higher costs of doing business, etc. So maybe I should be optimistic - on SOME products, retailers and manufacturers are finally getting the hint... and responding with targeted, temporary price reductions.

Hell, this year we had Black Friday sales here! First time I've seen that happen, but it seems that retailers were getting very scared of people driving down for the crazy US sales.

As to why the companies would care if dealers sold across the border, that would undermine the Canadian dealers who sell cars that comply with Canadian laws (such as daytime running lights, etc). Eventually they feel it would damage their business.

But the US-spec cars must be retrofitted to comply with those laws.

I wonder how much a dealer would charge to install a Canadian-spec metric instrument cluster and Canadian-spec DRLs (if, like the Genesis, the US version doesn't have DRLs). Presumably ONLY the Canadian dealers can do this work, since the parts wouldn't in the system for US dealers...

As I said, I am not "blaming" your system, because you get a lot of things that Americans don't have in exchange for paying higher prices.

But I don't think I get health care out of spending 10-30% more for a car. I get health care by paying higher income and sales taxes! (and other than health care, we don't really get most of those social programs they get in the EU, e.g. subsidized daycare, long parental leave, cheap subsidized post-secondary education, generous unemployment benefits, strong labour laws, etc.)

Let me put it another way: if the US imposed a 5-7% national sales tax tomorrow, and used that money to fund a Canadian-style single payer health system, would you expect the before-tax price of Canon cameras, Hyundai cars, Dell computers, etc to go up? Hell, I'd expect the price of some domestically-produced things (e.g. GM cars) to fall because a big cost (health insurance for their workers) would vanish from those companies' books.

One reason that many countries don't enforce price competition laws as strongly as the US is that it typically leads to a loss of jobs as the "middle men" are no longer protected when companies cannot enforce an actual selling price by retailers. What happens is that goods tend be sold only by more efficient large companies with direct links to manufacturers (no distributors or middle men), often no or few sales people, etc, and less customer service. Many EU countries (and to some extent Canada) fight against those practices because they lead to a loss of jobs in the distribution, sales, and customer service channels. So you pay more, but have more jobs (or better job security), at least in theory.

Right... and in practice, retailing here is often dominated by foreign firms anyways (except in books where there are laws to protect domestic retailers... laws that Amazon gets around through a partnership with the government-owned post office, amazingly).
For example, for years the dominant electronics retailer was an outfit called Future Shop. Best Buy saw an opening in the Canadian market and decided they were going to enter. So what did Future Shop do? They sold the whole company to Best Buy before the first Best Buy store even opened! As a result, we have the two stores, often next to each other, "competing" with each other (each week, different stuff is on sale at each), while the profits all go to the same shareholders in the US.

That's typical of how it works: domestic company makes tons of money. Americans sense opportunity (despite the alleged high taxes and restrictive labour laws!), decide to move north. Domestic company sees Big Huge American Company entering, and sells itself. Net result is that consumers pay the same prices, but the profits go to Big Huge American Company's shareholders.

What I would suggest is that you and the other true believers (I am sure there are millions like you) form your own company that would sell stuff in Canada for less money than everyone else, and your business would grow to such a large degree that you would become extremely wealthy, while at the same time lowering the cost of products to people in Canada. They will erect statues to honor you.

And how am I supposed to compete with the billions in R&D spending from multinationals like Canon, Hyundai, VW, or whoever?

I can't, so I can't make my own stuff, but instead must sell theirs.

If they sell me the stuff at the same price and with the same conditions as they sell to everybody else, then chances are, I'll have to sell it at the same price as everybody else.

If I try and run a grey market shop, well, they might sue me (IP laws are great for scaring off poorly-funded grey market importers), they might threaten the 'rogue' foreign distributors who are supplying me, and, in any event, who is going to want to buy something only warranted by some sketchy new import shop?

 

[davparlr]

That drives me crazy in my GFs Elantra. On GM cars at least it is defeatable. I am glad it is not included on the Genesis.

I'll bet not as crazy as my wife drives me by turning the volume up and down as I speed up/slow down. I have driven GM cars with the system and it seemed to work fine. In reality, in my Genesis, the sound is so pure and the ambient is so quiet, it is mostly non relevant.

 

[davparlr]

I don't remember where I read it, but the 14 and 17 speaker systems have the same power in watts. The 17 speaker version is able to handle the discreet 7.1 amplification for DVD processing. The 14 speaker system does not have the ability to do this.

They are both pretty great systems.

I believe both process stereo or 5.1 to 7.1, but yours does not play DVD's, only the 17 speaker version does.

http://hyundai.lexicon.com/system.aspx

Thanks for the info!

 

[ASHDUMP]

I'm a right winged extremist according to the Obama administration. I don't know why though... Maybe because I believe in

personal responsibility
free right to work states
limited gov't
the right to pursue happiness
the right that there may be no guarantee to that happiness
the right to failure and the right to succeed

...oh, and the right to burn as much oil and gas as I can in my 4.6 Genesis.

If I really didn't want to listen or follow our US Constitution then I would move to Canada.

...and no, we are not a democracy. We are a republic.

 

[jjsC6]

Could someone who has read the last several posts tell me if there is any information in them that is actually about the stereo. I was interested in that conversation - not the one comparing the U.S. to Canada.

 

[Mark_888]

Let me put it another way: if the US imposed a 5-7% national sales tax tomorrow, and used that money to fund a Canadian-style single payer health system, would you expect the before-tax price of Canon cameras, Hyundai cars, Dell computers, etc to go up? Hell, I'd expect the price of some domestically-produced things (e.g. GM cars) to fall because a big cost (health insurance for their workers) would vanish from those companies' books.

Private health care is part of the union contracts for GM auto-workers and would not be given up by workers if a government health care plan was created.

A 5-7% national sales tax would not come close to covering the current health care expenditures in the US. In the US, about 17% of GNP is for health care, compared to about 10% in Canada.

And how am I supposed to compete with the billions in R&D spending from multinationals like Canon, Hyundai, VW, or whoever?

You get millions of shareholders to invest just like other companies. This should be no problem since there are many millions of left wing liberals around, some with lots of money.

If I try and run a grey market shop, well, they might sue me (IP laws are great for scaring off poorly-funded grey market importers), they might threaten the 'rogue' foreign distributors who are supplying me, and, in any event, who is going to want to buy something only warranted by some sketchy new import shop?

The rules in the US are a bit complicated. If Canon USA is a subsidiary of Canon Japan (it is) then they cannot restrict the sale of grey market cameras in the US. B&H Photo (a well known online retailer in the US) sells both authorized and gray market Canon cameras on their website. The authorized ones come with a Canon USA warranty, and the grey market ones come with a B&H Photo (retailer) warranty.

However, if a foreign manufacturer (outside the US) awards an exclusive distributorship to an unrelated company in the US, then that US company owns the trademark for those products in the US and it is illegal for others to sell grey market goods. This is US law, don't know about other countries.

 

[Mark_888]

Could someone who has read the last several posts tell me if there is any information in them that is actually about the stereo. I was interested in that conversation - not the one comparing the U.S. to Canada.

If you want to know about the OP in this thread, I think the stereo in the base model is quite good. It is made by Lexicon (without the Lexicon name) and does not have surround sound, but the quality (flat frequency response and low distortion) is quite good if you like accurate sound (not exaggerated sound).

 

[ASHDUMP]

Actually, that is one gripe that the unions have with the new proposed health care system. They would lose their "Cadillac" plans and they do not like that.

awwwe, poor unionites having to get in line with the rest of us.

Fundamentally there is only one question to be asked on health care. Is it an entitlement?

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[ImInPA]

Private health care is part of the union contracts for GM auto-workers and would not be given up by workers if a government health care plan was created.

A 5-7% national sales tax would not come close to covering the current health care expenditures in the US. In the US, about 17% of GNP is for health care, compared to about 10% in Canada.


You get millions of shareholders to invest just like other companies. This should be no problem since there are many millions of left wing liberals around, some with lots of money.


The rules in the US are a bit complicated. If Canon USA is a subsidiary of Canon Japan (it is) then they cannot restrict the sale of grey market cameras in the US. B&H Photo (a well known online retailer in the US) sells both authorized and gray market Canon cameras on their website. The authorized ones come with a Canon USA warranty, and the grey market ones come with a B&H Photo (retailer) warranty.

However, if a foreign manufacturer (outside the US) awards an exclusive distributorship to an unrelated company in the US, then that US company owns the trademark for those products in the US and it is illegal for others to sell grey market goods. This is US law, don't know about other countries.

Just a clarification. Nowhere in the GM union contract is "Private Health Care" mentioned as a sole source. This is just some tea-bagger BS propaganda (like Death Panels). To be sure, Healthcare and levels are in the contract, but, not the source. GM would really benefit from a Public Option as would the millions of small businesses and other companies as well. It always strikes me when "conservatives" are afraid of a competitive market. Do you believe that GM could be competitive NOT offering Health Care to their worker when ALL of their competition around the world offer Health Care, if their governments don't already offer it.5-7% National Sales Tax would likely more than cover the existing proposed health care plans. Health Care for everyone in the wealthiest and greatest country on earth is not a Conservative Vs. Liberal thing.

I think that if someone is truly against a public option, they should have the cahones to waive their right to social security, medicare, disability, and unemployment.

But, none of this Fox News Show editorial has much to do with the base stereo.

 

[ashs]

...and no, we are not a democracy. We are a republic.

So "republic" defines us better than "democracy". As in the Peoples Republic of China or the Islamic Republic of Pakistan? Come on. I think we are in better company sticking with "democracy", albeit one of many "flavors".

Sorry, couldn't resist.

 

[Mark_888]

Just a clarification. Nowhere in the GM union contract is "Private Health Care" mentioned as a sole source. This is just some tea-bagger BS propaganda (like Death Panels). To be sure, Healthcare and levels are in the contract, but, not the source. GM would really benefit from a Public Option as would the millions of small businesses and other companies as well. It always strikes me when "conservatives" are afraid of a competitive market. Do you believe that GM could be competitive NOT offering Health Care to their worker when ALL of their competition around the world offer Health Care, if their governments don't already offer it.5-7% National Sales Tax would likely more than cover the existing proposed health care plans. Health Care for everyone in the wealthiest and greatest country on earth is not a Conservative Vs. Liberal thing.

I think that if someone is truly against a public option, they should have the cahones to waive their right to social security, medicare, disability, and unemployment.

But, none of this Fox News Show editorial has much to do with the base stereo.

A public option? You mean for everyone, or just an option for those who want it. It would cost more than 5-7% sales tax if everyone was on government health care.

I am relatively sure that if there is a government option (which seems likely) that the UAW union contract will not allow GM to unilaterally drop the current GM health care plan and force people workers onto the "public option", but maybe I am wrong. I don't know why you think my assumption on that has anything to do with whether I support a public option health care plan, or anything to do with Fox news.

 

[Mark_888]

So "republic" defines us better than "democracy". As in the Peoples Republic of China or the Islamic Republic of Pakistan? Come on. I think we are in better company sticking with "democracy", albeit one of many "flavors".

Sorry, couldn't resist.

A republic means that we elect people to be our leaders to make decisions for us, and not necessarily have every single issue voted on directly by the people. There is wisdom in having senators only up for re-election every 6 years, for example.

A People's Republic or Islamic Republic is something a little different, and something gets lost in translation (remember that English is not the native language of China or Pakistan).

"Peoples Republic" has become a catch phrase for left-wing political entities, such as the Peoples Republic of Berkeley, or Peoples Republic of Boulder, etc.

 

[scottdk]

Ok, ok please keep it on topic. This is a good discussion for a "non-genesis" topic/thread

 

[ASHDUMP]

Just a clarification. This is just some tea-bagger BS propaganda (like Death Panels)..

With a comment like this, I would say you watch a little to much (little boy) Rachael Maddow. Or maybe its just the channel, BSNBC.

Tea baggers love when the loonies use their Stalinism. Poke fun, laugh at, call them ungodly names.... It seems to be working real well for ya. (sarcasim)

 

[ASHDUMP]

So "republic" defines us better than "democracy". As in the Peoples Republic of China or the Islamic Republic of Pakistan? Come on. I think we are in better company sticking with "democracy", albeit one of many "flavors".

Sorry, couldn't resist.

What couldn't you resist? The inability to understand what Thomas Jefferson faught for? I would think you'd know that being from VA.

 

[ImInPA]

With a comment like this, I would say you watch a little to much (little boy) Rachael Maddow. Or maybe its just the channel, BSNBC.

Tea baggers love when the loonies use their Stalinism. Poke fun, laugh at, call them ungodly names.... It seems to be working real well for ya. (sarcasim)

Stalinism? hmmm. So, if one doesn't like Fox news they are Stalininsts? I think you have made my case better than I ever could. And for the Record, I think Rachel is and Keith are a bit overboard too. I am pretty firmly entrenched in the middle, like most Americans (of which I am proud to be). The one thing I will give them is that they never refer to their opposition as Stalinists or anti-American the way the true loonies at Fox do.

But, tell me, what do you think of the base stereo in the Genesis.

 

[Mark_888]

But, tell me, what do you think of the base stereo in the Genesis.

I don't think ASHDUMP knows about that since he has the V8. I think the base stereo is quite good, especially if one has good source material. I have a pretty good home stereo system for comparision. I recently purchased some stereo (2) speakers for my home that cost $3500/pair.

 

[ImInPA]

I don't think ASHDUMP knows about that since he has the V8. I think the base stereo is quite good, especially if one has good source material. I have a pretty good home stereo system for comparision. I recently purchased some stereo (2) speakers for my home that cost $3500/pair.

I remember reading somewhere that the base system is quite good. In my Vovlo, I have the base ("High Performance") system and I think it is very impressive. With technology today, there really is no real reason for base systems to not be very good. Hyundai has, for a very long time, used good quality components in many of their vehicle's audio systems. I would imagine that the base Genesis system is very good.