Oh, how the mighty (toyota) have fallen

[jailer]

Jailer,

If I were in the market for a car right now, the news and my interpretation of it would keep me away from ANY Toyota product (including Lexus). Why should I pay to take a known risk to own/drive a car with accelerator AND braking problems? Negligible risk = known risk in this case. Caveat emptor indeed! Toyota is paying (and will pay lots more) dearly for this lapse in quality assurance. I'm flabbergasted that Toyota has so many critical problems over such a number of models. It seems to me that they have had more than adequate time to fix the accelerator problem(s). It's been public since October and I'd bet a bunch that Toyota knew of it long before then. In the world of business it's not how good you have been in the past, it is "what have you done for me (or to me) lately?"! I can barely conceive of the MILLIONS of cars being recalled!

It's interesting that you don't seem alarmed with Toyota's predicament. They have stopped SELLING several models of their cars. Apparently Toyota thinks that the risk is more than "negligible" even if you don't!
:

That was not MY PIECE, dude. That was a piece from C&D, which I provided as another perspective, from people who are definitely NOT in the looney house.
I don't know what the outcome will be down the road, although I think the Audi thing way back, switched directions a couple of times.

 

[SterlingDave]

That was not MY PIECE, dude. That was a piece from C&D, which I provided as another perspective, from people who are definitely NOT in the looney house.
I don't know what the outcome will be down the road, although I think the Audi thing way back, switched directions a couple of times.

Sorry, Jailer, but after reading your other posts in this thread, it seemed as though you were/are a big Toyota fan to the exclusion of other brands. From your post of Feb 3: "Of course this is a huge blow to Toyota, but regarding the overall product, I don't feel Hyundai is in the same league as Toyota, excluding the Genesis Sedan and much lesser degree, the Coupe. (I don't even feel the Coupe is in the same league/quality as the Sedan). Hyundai's main staple is gaining, but I definitely don't feel they are same level." And from your post of Feb. 4: "Everyone's got their opinion, and I respect that, but I still stand by, part for part, and the drive of the vehicle, Toyota is still ahead by a decent margin. I got in a new Corolla the other day, as well as an Elantra, and I definitely could tell, but maybe it's just my preferences... I dunno. I felt the Corolla was ABSOLUTELY the more solid, better built vehicle. I did it not long ago with the Camry and Sonata, and felt the same. Everything just looked and felt of better quality. That's just how I see it."

It seems to me that an auto manufacturer who has to make recalls on over 8 million cars has a quality problem, a very big quality problem. This is not exactly the kind of company that I would hold in much esteem for quite some time to come. You and Car and Driver are certainly entitled to your opinions, irrespective of Toyota's current situation(s).

IMHO, there seems to be a broad-based change going on right now in the world of auto manufacturers and Toyota's grip on the big end of the stick is definitely slipping, if not altogether out of control.

 

[YEH]

Sorry, Jailer, but after reading your other posts in this thread, it seemed as though you were/are a big Toyota fan to the exclusion of other brands.

It seems to me that an auto manufacturer who has to make recalls on over 8 million cars has a quality problem, a very big quality problem. This is not exactly the kind of company that I would hold in much esteem for quite some time to come. You and Car and Driver are certainly entitled to your opinions, irrespective of Toyota's current situation(s).

It's not just the acceleration issue which likely has been caused by a no. of defects, but Toyota's current problems have been wide ranging from braking issues in their hybrids to steering problems in the Corolla to leaking brake tubes in the Camry to other models such as the 4-Runner experiencing the brake/acceleration problem.

Throw in the rusting frames in the Tundra and Tacoma, the engine sludge problem and problems w/ the V-6 Camry over the past few years and Toyota has had more issues than a good majority of the other auto manufacturers recently.

 

[Disaster]

It's not just the acceleration issue which likely has been caused by a no. of defects, but Toyota's current problems have been wide ranging from braking issues in their hybrids to steering problems in the Corolla to leaking brake tubes in the Camry to other models such as the 4-Runner experiencing the brake/acceleration problem.

Throw in the rusting frames in the Tundra and Tacoma, the engine sludge problem and problems w/ the V-6 Camry over the past few years and Toyota has had more issues than a good majority of the other auto manufacturers recently.

These anecdotal stories don't match the actual data. In Consumer Reports reliability survey (survey of actual problems by car owners) Toyota was the best in 5 out of 10 categories. By brand Toyota held the 1st (Scion), 3rd (Toyota) and 7th (Lexus) spots. Hyundai was 8th.

The recalls are a justifiable stain on Toyota's reliability record, but make no mistake, Toyota is at the top of reliability...neck and neck with Honda which holds the 2nd (Honda) and 5th (Acura) spots on the list.

 

[jailer]

These anecdotal stories don't match the actual data. In Consumer Reports reliability survey (survey of actual problems by car owners) Toyota was the best in 5 out of 10 categories. By brand Toyota held the 1st (Scion), 3rd (Toyota) and 7th (Lexus) spots. Hyundai was 8th.

The recalls are a justifiable stain on Toyota's reliability record, but make no mistake, Toyota is at the top of reliability...neck and neck with Honda which holds the 2nd (Honda) and 5th (Acura) spots on the list.

Jeez, thank you Disaster !

 

[ctrcbob]

I am strictly neutral on this problem at Toyota, however I do have a problem with other brand dealers taking advantage of Toyotas problems.

In the Orlando area, there is one Hyundai dealer, whom I call "The Loud Mouth Dealer".
You can't watch any TV without this Loud Mouth Dealer spouting off. Well now, he has an ad that says;

"Toyota Buyers, Buy Hyundai, Buy Today"!

The truth is, for all his ads, he does not give good deals as I have talked with people who visited his dealership, and came out of there with a sour taste in their mouth, and ending up buying their Hyundai elsewhere.

 

[YEH]

These anecdotal stories don't match the actual data. In Consumer Reports reliability survey (survey of actual problems by car owners) Toyota was the best in 5 out of 10 categories. By brand Toyota held the 1st (Scion), 3rd (Toyota) and 7th (Lexus) spots. Hyundai was 8th.

The recalls are a justifiable stain on Toyota's reliability record, but make no mistake, Toyota is at the top of reliability...neck and neck with Honda which holds the 2nd (Honda) and 5th (Acura) spots on the list.

Those aren't anecdotes, but rather systemic problems which required recalls and/or payments by Toyota.

And if one looks at the reliability range, the worst Toyotas are about on par w/ the worst Hyundais (and the worst Lexus models have more problems than the worst Hyundais).

 

[JamesD]

A couple of things to keep in mind when considering all of this:

Toyota and their TPS (Toyota Production System) is the envy of the manufacturing world. It is studied by virtually every other car and car-component manufacturer in the world, as well as companies in other industries. It is THE gold standard for running a manufacturing business.

Toyotas have been at the top of the sales charts for decades. Somebody correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe the Camry has been the best selling passenger car in the US for every year since '91. If I AM wrong, it's only in detail. Every other mainstream car compares themselves to this model, and that ain't luck.

What the media understands about technology (along with economics and science in general), you could put in your hat. In much of the coverage of this issue, one can tell that the reporter hasn't the faintest idea what they're talking about in their reportage. There is clearly something wrong here, but we aren't going to find out exactly what happened until the smoke clears. My sense is that this is more a political failure than an actual technical one, a relatively minor technical issue blown out of proportion by poorly handling the PR end, and making some bad decisions on top of it.

Lots of people seem to take heart in the fact that mighty Toyota is having problems; they act like this somehow offsets the complete failure of a large part of our own domestic auto industry, as if Toyota has some kind of "comeupance" due. I think this is sad, and I refuse to pile on until I know what really happened here and what Toyota did or didn't do right.

Hyundai is making pretty good products these days. In general, I agree with a previous writer that their product development is not yet on par with the best of the industry. That will take years to accomplish; it isn't just dedication or money...true, predicable design refinement takes years to achieve, which is why people buy Lexus and the Germans. But if they keep on their present path, it is clear that they will mature and will get there, and we will all benefit from the competition.

 

[YEH]

Toyota and their TPS (Toyota Production System) is the envy of the manufacturing world. It is studied by virtually every other car and car-component manufacturer in the world, as well as companies in other industries. It is THE gold standard for running a manufacturing business.

Evidently not by Hyundai.

A couple of years ago, Toyota wanted to do an "exchange" of staff to each other's manufacturing plants.

Hyundai refused due to their not wanting to reveal their proprietary manufacturing process.

Toyotas have been at the top of the sales charts for decades. Somebody correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe the Camry has been the best selling passenger car in the US for every year since '91. If I AM wrong, it's only in detail. Every other mainstream car compares themselves to this model, and that ain't luck.

Best-selling does not = "best".

In most comparisons of mainstream mid-size sedans, the Camry has placed in the middle, if not at the end.

What the media understands about technology (along with economics and science in general), you could put in your hat. In much of the coverage of this issue, one can tell that the reporter hasn't the faintest idea what they're talking about in their reportage. There is clearly something wrong here, but we aren't going to find out exactly what happened until the smoke clears. My sense is that this is more a political failure than an actual technical one, a relatively minor technical issue blown out of proportion by poorly handling the PR end, and making some bad decisions on top of it.

And yet, Toyota has been having the same unintended accltn issue in Japan, but they, nor the Japanese govt., seem to interested in it.

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/03/06/business/global/06toyota.html?hpw

 

[ajls09873]

I am strictly neutral on this problem at Toyota, however I do have a problem with other brand dealers taking advantage of Toyotas problems.

In the Orlando area, there is one Hyundai dealer, whom I call "The Loud Mouth Dealer".
You can't watch any TV without this Loud Mouth Dealer spouting off. Well now, he has an ad that says;

"Toyota Buyers, Buy Hyundai, Buy Today"!

The truth is, for all his ads, he does not give good deals as I have talked with people who visited his dealership, and came out of there with a sour taste in their mouth, and ending up buying their Hyundai elsewhere.

Hyundai is safe vehicle in this unintended acceleration issue.

2005-2010 NHTSA Database
: 117 Models Ranked By Rate Of unintended acceleration incident rate

There is no hyundai on the list.

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[ajls09873]

Those aren't anecdotes, but rather systemic problems which required recalls and/or payments by Toyota.

And if one looks at the reliability range, the worst Toyotas are about on par w/ the worst Hyundais (and the worst Lexus models have more problems than the worst Hyundais).

The data is 'predicted' reliability. not real world data.

 

[Disaster]

Those aren't anecdotes, but rather systemic problems which required recalls and/or payments by Toyota.

And if one looks at the reliability range, the worst Toyotas are about on par w/ the worst Hyundais (and the worst Lexus models have more problems than the worst Hyundais).

I agree there are systemic problems at Toyota that allowed them to ignore the accelerator issue for too long. Having said that, on average, you are more likely to get a more reliable Toyota than a Hyundai.

In fact, Hyundai got the infamous reward for one of the least reliable cars in in this years car issue, the 2003 Hyundai Tiburan, which had 202 problems per vehicle. The top 5 cars in reliability were ALL Toyotas, 2009 Yaris (2 problems per 100 vehicles), 2007 Highlander (12), 2005 Prius (17), 2003 Lexus LX (31) and 2001 Echo (35.)

The data is 'predicted' reliability. not real world data.

That is how statistics work...because you can only predict things that haven't happened but make no mistake, the data is based on "real" reliability from Consumer Reports surveys. I expect CR uses a T distribution (student) to predict the larger population. This is a proven valid statistical method.

Hyundai should be justifiably proud of it's advances in quality. Toyota should be justifiably ashamed for not pursuing the acceleration recall sooner and more thoroughly. But, make no mistake about it, Toyota still makes the most reliable cars in the world and it's manufacturing techniques are still studied and benchmarked by competitors and companies in other industries as well.

 

[JamesD]

Why are you so intent on running down Toyota? They're about the most successful car company in the world. You seem to be implying that somehow because they've made a mistake or screwed something up, that negates their excellence, and somehow buoys up Hyundai, who's just now coming onto anyone's radar as a direct competitor.

Evidently not by Hyundai.

A couple of years ago, Toyota wanted to do an "exchange" of staff to each other's manufacturing plants.

Hyundai refused due to their not wanting to reveal their proprietary manufacturing process.

So, what are you saying? Anybody can make a statement like that, it doesn't actually say anything...Toyota probably thought they could learn a thing or two from Hyundai (part of what makes them so good is that they're open to new thinking), including competitive intelligence. It's a certainty that Hyundai has studied Toyota's methods. And, my point was, so has (and does) everybody else. I don't recall ever seeing a job requirement that read "thorough understanding of the Hyundai Production System", but in the manufacturing world, the TPS is mentioned often. They teach it in engineering schools, and give classes within companies. I don't know where Hyundai fits in with this, especially if they won't talk about their methodology, but I do know that TPS is the defacto standard for excellence.


Best-selling does not = "best".

In most comparisons of mainstream mid-size sedans, the Camry has placed in the middle, if not at the end.

Actually, in this case, it does mean "best". The definition of "best" is "most appropriate choice for the use of me and my family", which is the definition 'most everyone applies in their own lives. Millions upon millions of people (over literally two decades) have voted with their checkbooks and putting down their money on this model, which DOES suggest that it is, in fact, "best" for them. Why do you suppose those millions of people didn't buy the "superior" competitors?


And yet, Toyota has been having the same unintended accltn issue in Japan, but they, nor the Japanese govt., seem to interested in it.

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/03/06/business/global/06toyota.html?hpw

Funny you'd site the NYTimes as a reference...this is the exact group I was referring to in my original comment. Maybe the fact that Toyota and the Japanese government aren't hyperventilating should tell us something...let's wait for the smoke to clear, and see what really happened. Do you remember the Audi "unintended acceleration" problem a few decades back? That episode seems very instructive here...

 

[Hghwy52]

Maybe the fact that Toyota and the Japanese government aren't hyperventilating should tell us something...let's wait for the smoke to clear, and see what really happened. Do you remember the Audi "unintended acceleration" problem a few decades back? That episode seems very instructive here...[/QUOTE]

I agree that the actual problem may be less than it seems, but Audi was able to demonstrate convincingly that their 100 HP engine could not overpower the brakes and, with the brake shift interlock (which all cars now have) and repositioning the accelerator pedal, complaints pretty much ceased. It seems that, until Toyota has some unassailable fail-safe system in place, it will be awfully easy to claim unintended acceleration, in some cases, whether it existed or not.

 

[ctrcbob]

I agree there are systemic problems at Toyota that allowed them to ignore the accelerator issue for too long. Having said that, on average, you are more likely to get a more reliable Toyota than a Hyundai.

In fact, Hyundai got the infamous reward for one of the least reliable cars in in this years car issue, the 2003 Hyundai Tiburan, which had 202 problems per vehicle. The top 5 cars in reliability were ALL Toyotas, 2009 Yaris (2 problems per 100 vehicles), 2007 Highlander (12), 2005 Prius (17), 2003 Lexus LX (31) and 2001 Echo (35.)



That is how statistics work...because you can only predict things that haven't happened but make no mistake, the data is based on "real" reliability from Consumer Reports surveys. I expect CR uses a T distribution (student) to predict the larger population. This is a proven valid statistical method.

Hyundai should be justifiably proud of it's advances in quality. Toyota should be justifiably ashamed for not pursuing the acceleration recall sooner and more thoroughly. But, make no mistake about it, Toyota still makes the most reliable cars in the world and it's manufacturing techniques are still studied and benchmarked by competitors and companies in other industries as well.

This is the first time I've heard the "Student-T Test" mentioned, since I worked for/with a Statistician many years ago. In civilian life, I was a QA/QC Technician.

 

[Disaster]

This is the first time I've heard the "Student-T Test" mentioned, since I worked for/with a Statistician many years ago. In civilian life, I was a QA/QC Technician.

Busted. I have a background in QC...worked as a 6 Sigma. I have worked for a couple car companies and know what a formidable force Toyota is to deal with...especially with regard to quality.

 

[dataguy]

http://www.businessweek.com/news/20...-county-prosecutor-over-defects-update1-.html

 

[Disaster]

http://www.businessweek.com/news/20...-county-prosecutor-over-defects-update1-.html

That guy is a typical opportunistic prosecutor/politician up for reelection.

 

[jailer]

I posted these in another section, but just for those who stay in the main Genesis section. Just to keep up with the highly questionable current events, IMO.

http://jalopnik.com/5491101/did-bankrupt-runaway-prius-driver-fake-unintended-acceleration

http://jalopnik.com/5491543/bankrupt-runaway-prius-driver-owns-adult-swinger-site

http://jalopnik.com/5491932/norwegian-prius-unintentionally-accelerates-to-109-mph-rams-guard-rail

http://jalopnik.com/5492096/is-jim-sikes-the-new-balloon-boy

http://jalopnik.com/5492199/exclusive-ex+business-partner-claims-runaway-prius-driver-a-scammer

 

[jailer]

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hMwXvoGhH0k"]YouTube- 2008 Prius Demo of how to shift to neutral and stop the car[/ame]

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XGchIHxqOt0"]YouTube- HOW TO STOP A RUNAWAY TOYOTA PRIUS WITH UNINTENDED ACCELERATION "LIVE"[/ame]