Concerns about Surcharge

[DaleNet]

Etching is when they etch your VIN onto all the glass. Supposed to deter anyone stealing the glass, but most thieves just would not care. All of it is to get more money out of you. If they have not done any of it yet, I would tell them you do not want it.

 

[Looney100]

Etching is when they etch your VIN onto all the glass. Supposed to deter anyone stealing the glass, but most thieves just would not care. All of it is to get more money out of you. If they have not done any of it yet, I would tell them you do not want it.

I feel for those of you in the US. Quite grateful we don’t have to deal with that here - at least not with Genesis.

 

[DaleNet]

I was lucky and got mine before it was processed and put on the lot so there were no dealer add-ons. Just the items Genesis added to the vehicle although I did not get wheel locks. Strange.

 

[pejorative]

I was lucky and got mine before it was processed and put on the lot so there were no dealer add-ons. Just the items Genesis added to the vehicle although I did not get wheel locks. Strange.

Yeah this one hadn't been delivered yet. They still wanted $ for etching and "paint and interior protection"

 

[DaleNet]

You should not have to get dealer options if you do not want them, but it is up to you. The Genesis vehicles are a pretty hot commodity right now and the dealers know it.

 

[Looney100]

I was lucky and got mine before it was processed and put on the lot so there were no dealer add-ons. Just the items Genesis added to the vehicle although I did not get wheel locks. Strange.

Don’t sweat the missing wheel locks. I learned a few years ago that they are essentially pointless. Thieves will just break them to get the wheels off.

 

[DaleNet]

I know what you mean, but I have a GV80 and it has 22 inch wheels. If someone wants to steel them, I would at least like them to work for it.

 

[ZedsterTheMyuu]

Just talked to a few dealers in Southern California, all the dealers I talked to have different "add on packages" at different prices. The dealers are: Norm Reeves (Cerritos), Loma Linda, Santa Monica, and Corona. Some of them are not calling them mark ups, but required dealer add-on options. So they do add to the price, but they also give you something in return for the price. I don't think that will change for at least a year or so more, so that is something that you will have to consider for sure...

 

[Dan H]

Not sure why some people seem to be feeling so good about paying list price for a Tesla. Has no one noticed how many times Tesla has raised their prices in the last 3 months? The total of the Tesla price increases is far beyond what the average Hyundai. Kia, or Genesis dealer is actually achieving in markup over MSRP.

 

[azurecardinal]

Not sure why some people seem to be feeling so good about paying list price for a Tesla. Has no one noticed how many times Tesla has raised their prices in the last 3 months? The total of the Tesla price increases is far beyond what the average Hyundai. Kia, or Genesis dealer is actually achieving in markup over MSRP.

That is because unlike dealer surcharges, manufacturer MSRP increases actually goes towards the materials, labor, development of the vehicle you are buying and the profits of the company you're buying from. This is what should be happening with a free market for a products with short supply and heavy demand.

In stark contrast, the surcharge you pay to the dealers goes to a middleman that offers very little value in the modern society. You as the consumer will see very little benefit from that premium.

Back in the day, the existence of dealers solved a very real problem of final mile distribution of vehicles for the manufacturers. The same problem today can be heavily mitigated by technology. This is a great video going into the details:

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[Looney100]

A dollar is a dollar. As I suggested earlier, an item's price is not something I get emotional about. It's a simple question of whether I feel whatever I'm looking to purchase warrants the amount I need to pay for it. Of course, expectations of how price may differ in the future factor into that, as do considerations of the value of having the item now vs. later.

I feel no better if that goes to Elon or the dealership. Tesla made a $3B profit last quarter, they have 3x the market cap of the next nearest auto maker, and Elon is the wealthiest person on the planet. Tesla is no more deserving than the dealer is. There are those that would prefer the money went to the local dealership as they are members of the local community, employing locals. Local salespeople may very well have more money to spend locally because they receive larger commissions in this environment.

All the participants involved in bringing that vehicle to market are profit-seeking enterprises, none will get charity from me. I care little about how my funds are distributed among them.

 

[Dan H]

No one hates car dealers more than I, but sorry Tesla is taking advantage of the market conditions just the same way. Just look at how fast they have raised their prices in the last 12 months versus Hyundai, Kia, and Genesis.

I've heard so many people claim how good Tesla's "no dealers" model is,, but as a 4 time Tesla owner I can testify as to the problems.

Tesla has poor coverage with their service locations. While they tout how repairs can be done OTA or in the field, reality is the majority of repairs require a visit to the service center. Not so great when there are no service locations near by. And the service locations they do have are overwhelmed because there are so few of them. The good news is once you have worked with the service center to sort out the inevitable build quality issues which should have been flagged at the factory or if not before delivery, Teslas tend to be reasonably problem free, especially the batteries and drivetrain. But between poorly trained techs and lack of parts, count on making numerous trips to a service center during the first 6 months of ownership to get the build quality issues sorted out. And if you don't live near a service center, the amount of personal time you need to spend getting your new car up to snuff is crazy.

And just wait until you need repairs after the warranty expires. Our most recent Model S needed a new main screen a mere month after the warranty expired. Even though at that point we were a "3-peat" Tesla customer and the screen failures are well documented all they would do was tell us the $6000+ repair cost. If it were a BMW, Mercedes or Caddy the dealer certainly would have gone to bat for us.

The people working in the service centers have little incentive to go above and beyond for the customers as the customers won't get lost to a competing dealership.

Not suggesting dealers are a must, but the way Tesla operates without dealers is way far from optimal.

 

[Dan H]

Forgot two more things.

Tesla touts their ability to repair cars in the field given their weak network of service locations. Once the warranty expires, just wait until you see how much they want to charge to send a technician to you if you are not close by.

So you might think that you will buy an extended warranty from Tesla to protect yourself. But you will find out they quietly discontinued them.

So what do you think that might be about?

So where does the combination of no extended warranties and Tesla not sharing service info or selling parts to private garages leave the owner?

The $6000+ bill for the display on our Model S might be a hint. And I did not mention a few weeks after the display repair our driver's side window stuck in the open position. The repair bill after I had to drive it all the way to the Tesla service center was a whopping $2200 for a power window repair!

Perhaps their strategy is to rape the Tesla owner base that's now out there with no where else to turn for repairs?

 

[Chad86tsi]

Forgot two more things.

Tesla touts their ability to repair cars in the field given their weak network of service locations. Once the warranty expires, just wait until you see how much they want to charge to send a technician to you if you are not close by.

So you might think that you will buy an extended warranty from Tesla to protect yourself. But you will find out they quietly discontinued them.

So what do you think that might be about?

So where does the combination of no extended warranties and Tesla not sharing service info or selling parts to private garages leave the owner?

The $6000+ bill for the display on our Model S might be a hint. And I did not mention a few weeks after the display repair our driver's side window stuck in the open position. The repair bill after I had to drive it all the way to the Tesla service center was a whopping $2200 for a power window repair!

Perhaps their strategy is to rape the Tesla owner base that's now out there with no where else to turn for repairs?

I recently commented in another topic how I had recently left the genesis brand in large part because I don't trust the long term support of their product, and that matters to me. I looked into Tesla as well, and they seem to be the worst of all (short of some of the exotics). Tesla was high on my list until I read real owner stories about service and parts. Even if they were less expensive, it truly gives me pause. Doubling the cars in the field through massive sales volume increase without similar growth in the support side of the house = future disaster, and really that future is now if you are honest about it.

 

[Looney100]

I recently commented in another topic how I had recently left the genesis brand in large part because I don't trust the long term support of their product, and that matters to me. I looked into Tesla as well, and they seem to be the worst of all (short of some of the exotics). Tesla was high on my list until I read real owner stories about service and parts. Even if they were less expensive, it truly gives me pause. Doubling the cars in the field through massive sales volume increase without similar growth in the support side of the house = future disaster, and really that future is now if you are honest about it.

Tesla has also been at/near the bottom of reliability ratings for several years now.

There are many, many reasons why I did not consider the purchase of one.

 

[Dan H]

Tesla has also been at/near the bottom of reliability ratings for several years now.

There are many, many reasons why I did not consider the purchase of one.

Assuming you are referring to Consumer Reports reliability ratings, even they make a note of pointing out that Tesla's low scores are highly related to build quality issues, not that the cars break down. As I mentioned above, we currently own our 4th Tesla and once you get the build quality issues fixed it's generally very smooth sailing. But like every manufacturer, Tesla has it's pros and cons too. They have had more than enough time to fix the build quality issues. All they need to do is hire some laid off engineers from Ford and GM to show them how to run a body shop Just drive a Model Y and a GV60 back to back and one of the first things you notice is how the Model Y body structure creaks and groans, whereas the GV60 exudes quality and feels like you are driving a bank vault...everything from the switchgear to the way the doors close. But in fairness (and Consumer Reports points this out too) Tesla scores very high in customer satisfaction.

 

[Looney100]

Consumer Reports have Tesla at 27 out of 28, JD Power 30th out of 33.

I'm not surprised to hear the satisfaction rating. My sense is that many Tesla owners are more about the brand than the vehicle vs. buyers of other labels. They get more satisfaction from what the brand says about them, and the gimmickry of the tech, etc.

The same was true of the Jeep Wrangler for many years. A horrendous vehicle by most objective measures, with a long list of improvements needed according to most journalists. Owners, however absolutely love them. My understanding is that the newer generation has addressed many of the common issues.

 

[azurecardinal]

A dollar is a dollar. As I suggested earlier, an item's price is not something I get emotional about. It's a simple question of whether I feel whatever I'm looking to purchase warrants the amount I need to pay for it. Of course, expectations of how price may differ in the future factor into that, as do considerations of the value of having the item now vs. later.

I feel no better if that goes to Elon or the dealership. Tesla made a $3B profit last quarter, they have 3x the market cap of the next nearest auto maker, and Elon is the wealthiest person on the planet. Tesla is no more deserving than the dealer is. There are those that would prefer the money went to the local dealership as they are members of the local community, employing locals. Local salespeople may very well have more money to spend locally because they receive larger commissions in this environment.

All the participants involved in bringing that vehicle to market are profit-seeking enterprises, none will get charity from me. I care little about how my funds are distributed among them.

You're certainly entitled to that perspective, but you need to understand that such a perspective is doing nothing to improve the status-quo for us as consumers.

Tesla made the $3B profit this quarter by being the very best at what they do, as the products and distribution channels offered by Tesla have been uncontested for almost a decade. Genesis/Hyundai and the rest of the established automakers are still playing catch-up where their technology and distribution is still nowhere near what Tesla is able to offer. Tesla earned their right to their competitive advantage and the dollars of those choosing to buy a Tesla.

Now the situation has changed for Tesla with their obvious recent issues, as their service model is not sustainable for the volume they are pushing. This is mainly due to mismanagement and a lack of focus of the company in general, rather than an issue with the operating model. The lack of competition in the EV space has made Tesla complacent in their own inadequacies, but it seems that the majority still favors the brand and its products dearly, for now.

The good news is that free market dictates that those of us who are not happy with the options or quality of services offered, we can buy another car like the GV60.

The problem then becomes one caused by having dealerships as the middleman. More specifically, dealership currently acting as scalpers to take advantage of consumers who are able to, but otherwise wouldn't have needed to pay for the markup, all while being detrimental to the experience of purchasing a car. In the case of Hyundai/Genesis, the sales process when compared to Tesla or Rivian in the EV space is night and day in comparison simply because of the need to go through a dealer with control on final pricing.

At the end of the day, my issues are not with the existence of dealers, but rather what the dealers have come to represent in the current world environment. We should vote with the money we have towards practices that are favorable and fair, instead of just simply throwing our arms up in the air and saying "welp it's just the market," we should instead be asking "how do we make this society better for everyone in it." Step one is to recognize the fact that each of our dollar represent a vote towards an ideal, and we should use those votes wisely rather than accepting the status quo.

I understand that it makes no difference to you, but what we do here and how we react could have profound impacts on the future generations, so why not vote towards a better future?

I ended up researching and finding a dealer with zero markup or mandatory add-ons, which I am more than happy to support, but I am not happy with the amount of legwork needed to get there.

 

[Looney100]

we should instead be asking "how do we make this society better for everyone in it." Step one is to recognize the fact that each of our dollar represent a vote towards an ideal, and we should use those votes wisely rather than accepting the status quo.

I understand that it makes no difference to you, but what we do here and how we react could have profound impacts on the future generations, so why not vote towards a better future?

I agree with voting with our dollars, but I think you're making far too much of this. I'm really struggling to understand how my choice of EV this year is going to have a significant impact on future generations.
Who knows? Maybe my kids will be able to take their kids to a statue of me that says:

LOONEY
June 17, 2022
Bought a Genesis from a no-surcharge dealership

 

[Dan H]

You're certainly entitled to that perspective, but you need to understand that such a perspective is doing nothing to improve the status-quo for us as consumers.

Tesla made the $3B profit this quarter by being the very best at what they do, as the products and distribution channels offered by Tesla have been uncontested for almost a decade. Genesis/Hyundai and the rest of the established automakers are still playing catch-up where their technology and distribution is still nowhere near what Tesla is able to offer. Tesla earned their right to their competitive advantage and the dollars of those choosing to buy a Tesla.

Now the situation has changed for Tesla with their obvious recent issues, as their service model is not sustainable for the volume they are pushing. This is mainly due to mismanagement and a lack of focus of the company in general, rather than an issue with the operating model. The lack of competition in the EV space has made Tesla complacent in their own inadequacies, but it seems that the majority still favors the brand and its products dearly, for now.

The good news is that free market dictates that those of us who are not happy with the options or quality of services offered, we can buy another car like the GV60.

The problem then becomes one caused by having dealerships as the middleman. More specifically, dealership currently acting as scalpers to take advantage of consumers who are able to, but otherwise wouldn't have needed to pay for the markup, all while being detrimental to the experience of purchasing a car. In the case of Hyundai/Genesis, the sales process when compared to Tesla or Rivian in the EV space is night and day in comparison simply because of the need to go through a dealer with control on final pricing.

At the end of the day, my issues are not with the existence of dealers, but rather what the dealers have come to represent in the current world environment. We should vote with the money we have towards practices that are favorable and fair, instead of just simply throwing our arms up in the air and saying "welp it's just the market," we should instead be asking "how do we make this society better for everyone in it." Step one is to recognize the fact that each of our dollar represent a vote towards an ideal, and we should use those votes wisely rather than accepting the status quo.

I understand that it makes no difference to you, but what we do here and how we react could have profound impacts on the future generations, so why not vote towards a better future?

I ended up researching and finding a dealer with zero markup or mandatory add-ons, which I am more than happy to support, but I am not happy with the amount of legwork needed to get there.

So what exactly are you proposing?

I do think the state laws requiring the use of dealers are totally abhorrent and nothing more than the result of dealer organizations paying off the corrupt politicians to make it happen. Vehicle manufacturers should be able to sell and distribute however they deem best.

You complain that consumers are getting scalped by the dealers during the sales process, but I find it interesting that you mention nothing at all about consumers getting scalped by the Tesla model when needing non warranty repairs because Tesla has a lock on the repair process as I described in detail above.