"Whatever happened to the two-door car?" - it became a G70!

[orange260z]

Came across this article on CNN today "Whatever happened to the two-door car?", discussing cars like the Chrysler Cordoba, Buick Riviera, Cadillac Eldorado, Ford Thunderbird (2nd incarnation), etc.

"Driving one of these “personal luxury [coupes]” made a statement about your superior taste and, also, your carefree lifestyle not requiring the mundane practicality of back doors.... With its long hood, ample chrome and two massive doors allowing awkward access to often reasonably-sized – once you manage to get in there – back seats, they still make a statement."

I've always loved the idea of PLCs, but they were out of my budget in my pre-family days; and given I've always had at least one dedicated "toy" during all of my earning years, the lack of AWD for winter use and practicality for family use left them outside of my lifestyle until now. There was a period where I needed an SUV (for ease in buckling kids into car seats, carrying strollers and baby stuff), then a larger sedan (for a comfortable back seat with good leg room to avoid the back seat kicks, big trunk with luggage space for 4); but now my car is more for personal use with the ability to carry the family on occasion or for short trips. A large coupe would have fit the bill also, but options for those are pretty much limited to the Germans these days and usually carry a price premium to their already expensive 4-door counterparts.

To me, despite having 4 doors, the G70 is really a modern "personal luxury coupe" combining style (low, wide, long hood), performance, and a backseat similar in capacity to those large coupes. Although it may only be ever-so-slightly smaller in measured back seat and trunk space compared to the closest competitors (such as the BMW 3), IMHO the functional/usable space is quite a bit less, which is often the case with the two-door version of the German car.

At this stage in my life, given my wife has a larger "family car" for us use on family travel, that's ok with me - front seat comfort and a balance of style, luxury, performance is more important than practicality, although some level of practicality (a bigger backseat than the 911 and AWD) was critical.

What do you guys think, is the G70 in the spirit of the PLC?

 

[Volfy]

Your comparison makes sense, if compared to 2-door coupes like the M2/M4 and Q60. Maybe even GT55/GT63, if you stretch the MSRP further upward. As much as some of these cars might be highly desirable, they are just too darn heavy IMO. Most of these start at 3800 lbs to well over 4000 lbs, pretty much like the G70 3.3T. For that reason, I would hesitate to call them sports cars. More like 2-door Gran Turismo, in the same vein that G70 and Stinger are 4-door GT's.

Personally, if and when I get to a point where a 2dr makes sense, I'd much rather get into a true sports coupe: from GR Supra/400Z to 718/911 - starting at 3100 lbs and pretty much stay in the low 3000's. Mazda's much rumored RX9 would be on top of my list, especially if it actually keeps the rotary engine. But even if a up-tuned version of CX90's 3.3 Turbo is more likely, knowing Mazda, it should still be a great sports car.

That said, I just hope Genesis comes to its senses and reconsiders it's hifalutin EV-only ambitions. Re-ignite mothballed ICE projects and stick a gas burner in the gorgeous X-Concept. That is a personal luxury coupe I can get behind.

 

[pulsar]

Agree here. Wife has the SUV for family vacations or carting family out to dinner. The other 90% of the time my G70 gets me and my wife out to dinner and around town just fine. Wife actually kinda likes my Miata even though harder to get into and a smaller car it does not have the power of the G70 so she screams at me less. I tend to get more irritated with folks in my G70 and just punch it and go around them all while the wife grips anything she can hold on to in the G70.
As far as Mazda’s rotary, great engines, smooth, hi-RPMs, quiet, but not fuel efficient typically. I had work buddies who had a RX-7 and 8 and their only complaint was poor mileage. Not sure that fault can be engineering around like they did on the bad rotor seals some years back.

 

[orange260z]

Your comparison makes sense, if compared to 2-door coupes like the M2/M4 and Q60. Maybe even GT55/GT63, if you stretch the MSRP further upward. As much as some of these cars might be highly desirable, they are just too darn heavy IMO. Most of these start at 3800 lbs to well over 4000 lbs, pretty much like the G70 3.3T. For that reason, I would hesitate to call them sports cars. More like 2-door Gran Turismo, in the same vein that G70 and Stinger are 4-door GT's.

I'd say that the M2 is in a strange space where it's not really a "sports car" but it's not "luxurious" either... and yes, the others are too heavy to be called a sports car... hence PLC.

Personally, if and when I get to a point where a 2dr makes sense, I'd much rather get into a true sports coupe: from GR Supra/400Z to 718/911 - starting at 3100 lbs and pretty much stay in the low 3000's. Mazda's much rumored RX9 would be on top of my list, especially if it actually keeps the rotary engine. But even if a up-tuned version of CX90's 3.3 Turbo is more likely, knowing Mazda, it should still be a great sports car.

Well, I have a 911 (997.2 C2S), and although the back seats are more usable than some, they are still more "sports car" than what a "PLC" would have, particularly in headroom. And here's the conundrum - as the 911 has evolved, each successive generation has made it less "sports car" and more "GT". IMHO, and this is hotly debatable, the 997.2 is the last of the "sports cars", as the 991.1 is bigger, more refined, more comfortable and likely a much better car for a long distance drive. But the same argument could be made by someone suggesting that the 993 is the last of the "sports cars", as the water cooled 996 and 997 generations are bigger, more refined, more comfortable and better cars for long drives. For me, the 997.2 hit the sweet spot, but for others it would vary.

The FD RX7 was an awesome sports car, but the RX8 never did it for me. I love the current Mazda design language, loved driving rotary motors.

 

[Volfy]

Mazda did a lot of engineering work on the lip seals to make it somewhat acceptably reliable for a mass-produced car. Still nowhere as long lasting as the venerable piston rings. The fuel economy issue was also a problem. My guess is, in that regard, direction injection would help the rotary engine as as much it did for reciprocating engines, if not more. Not sure about emission though. That may be the biggest hurdle for bringing back rotaries.

As impractical as the Miata has always been as a daily driver, Mazda still sold a crap ton of them. RX9 would be along the same vein. Then again, I'm not sure how long Mazda can keep the Miata line going. The only reason this latest gen was even possible was the R&D money from Fiat to codevelop the 124 Spider. Without another partner, it would be tough for Mazda to fund the Miata redesign all by themselves. A rotary in an RX9 would take even more R&D yet they don't have. That is why the straight 6 turbo is much more likely. I highly doubt Mazda would go so far as designing a brand new inline6 turbo solely for SUVs. It just makes sense to stick it in a sports coupe/sedan as well.

I think Mazda is following Genesis's successful playbook of going all RWD-based for their luxury offerings.

Well, I have a 911 (997.2 C2S), and although the back seats are more usable than some, they are still more "sports car" than what a "PLC" would have, particularly in headroom. And here's the conundrum - as the 911 has evolved, each successive generation has made it less "sports car" and more "GT". IMHO, and this is hotly debatable, the 997.2 is the last of the "sports cars", as the 991.1 is bigger, more refined, more comfortable and likely a much better car for a long distance drive. But the same argument could be made by someone suggesting that the 993 is the last of the "sports cars", as the water cooled 996 and 997 generations are bigger, more refined, more comfortable and better cars for long drives. For me, the 997.2 hit the sweet spot, but for others it would vary.

I hesitated to include 911 in my post above, as I much prefer the 718 platform for a sports coupe. But I figure some traditionalists might still prefer the rear-engined 911.

 

[orange260z]

As impractical as the Miata has always been as a daily driver, Mazda still sold a crap ton of them. RX9 would be along the same vein. Then again, I'm not sure how long Mazda can keep the Miata line going. The only reason this latest gen was even possible was the R&D money from Fiat to codevelop the 124 Spider. Without

Haha, you should check out the reddit "Miatalogistics"!

A Miata is surprisingly practical as a DD for a single person, particularly in the non-winter states. I used the Miata as a summer DD for many years in the 1990s, and took it on some pretty long trips. A modern Miata is luxurious by comparison - although they've managed to keep the weight down and stay true to the simple, lightweight concept (for the most part).

I think Mazda is following Genesis's successful playbook of going all RWD-based for their luxury offerings.

Yeah, the idea of a straight-six RWD (based) Mazda6 really interests me. I drove the new 6 in the CX90 and it was pretty sweet.

I hesitated to include 911 in my post above, as I much prefer the 718 platform for a sports coupe. But I figure some traditionalists might still prefer the rear-engined 911.

I've had a Boxster - the mid-engined cars are like a scalpel within their incredibly-high limits, inherently higher than the rear-engined cars. However, those limits make it a little less interesting to drive, and hard to handle once you go over those limits.

And I can't speak for the newer Miatas, but the NA/NB cars can also be a handful if you cross the limit, particularly if you have grippy tires. Back in my autocross days I'd either FTD or spin out, not much in between! The 944 that replaced it was much more predictable at/over the limit as a track car.

 

[FastCars]

As the former owner of both a '78 & '79 T-bird plus a Lincoln Mark IV and IIV, all with 351 V8's & RWD I can assure you the G70 (while a nice car) is not really a modern replacement for those old luxo barges

I see it more as a 'budget friendly' competitor for the 4 door 'executive express' slot made popular by BMW, Audi & Merc back in the late '90's. It's roots are more derived from the Infiniti Q and M series sedans (also marketed as a poor man's BMW) than anything else.

 

[Volfy]

A Miata is surprisingly practical as a DD for a single person, particularly in the non-winter states. I used the Miata as a summer DD for many years in the 1990s, and took it on some pretty long trips. A modern Miata is luxurious by comparison - although they've managed to keep the weight down and stay true to the simple, lightweight concept (for the most part).

I suppose a Miata can be a good "daily driver" the same way a sport touring motorcycle can be. Having configurable luggage made them fairly "practical" for commuting. For quite a while, I'd ride to work every chance I get. IIRC, my longest streak was 4-1/2wks straight. It would be another matter entirely if that were my only vehicle, which was more what I meant by "daily driver". As much as I like riding, I avoid doing it in the wet like it's the plague. No doubt some rider are dedicated enough to ride in all weather. Not me.

I've had a Boxster - the mid-engined cars are like a scalpel within their incredibly-high limits, inherently higher than the rear-engined cars. However, those limits make it a little less interesting to drive, and hard to handle once you go over those limits.

MR2's are like that. The mass centralization of short WB mid-engine cars allows them to rotate super easily but can be prone to snap oversteer near the limits. In many ways, it's more what a driver is used to than how strong those inherent traits are. Lots of long-time Corvette owners have voiced their preference for the traditional front engine layout over the C8. Some of it also have to do with how long a particular design has been refined over the years. Early 911s - particularly the turbos - had a notorious reputation of new owners wrapping their brand new car around a telephone pole on the 1st turn out of the dealership. Porsche gradually tamed that lift-throttle oversteer to be manageable by even the greenest of Porschephiles.

 

[orange260z]

I suppose a Miata can be a good "daily driver" the same way a sport touring motorcycle can be. Having configurable luggage made them fairly "practical" for commuting. For quite a while, I'd ride to work every chance I get. IIRC, my longest streak was 4-1/2wks straight. It would be another matter entirely if that were my only vehicle, which was more what I meant by "daily driver". As much as I like riding, I avoid doing it in the wet like it's the plague. No doubt some rider are dedicated enough to ride in all weather. Not me.

MR2's are like that. The mass centralization of short WB mid-engine cars allows them to rotate super easily but can be prone to snap oversteer near the limits. In many ways, it's more what a driver is used to than how strong those inherent traits are. Lots of long-time Corvette owners have voiced their preference for the traditional front engine layout over the C8. Some of it also have to do with how long a particular design has been refined over the years. Early 911s - particularly the turbos - had a notorious reputation of new owners wrapping their brand new car around a telephone pole on the 1st turn out of the dealership. Porsche gradually tamed that lift-throttle oversteer to be manageable by even the greenest of Porschephiles.

Yeah, my 1970 was quite a handful with the RS motor - driving that car in the rain was stressful! My 997 is pretty tame, the rear end slides out controllably (really only as the tires age, when they are new the car just sticks like glue).

 

[orange260z]

As the former owner of both a '78 & '79 T-bird plus a Lincoln Mark IV and IIV, all with 351 V8's & RWD I can assure you the G70 (while a nice car) is not really a modern replacement for those old luxo barges

You sound like my buddy since high school - he had a couple of early/mid-70s Cougars (one with 351W, the other a 351C), a Lincoln Mark IV with a 460, and then he downsized bigtime to a '82 Grand Prix 305. After that he had an '89 T-Bird V6, and then a '94 T-Bird V8 that he bought brand new and drove for quite a few years. I've driven all of his cars quite a bit over the years (although I have to admit, I always found the Lincoln intimidating as I had NO idea where the corners of that car were, and it was way too fast for its brakes and suspension). He now owns a 2008 Mustang GT convertible, a 1970 Mustang Mach1 351C, and a 2022 Merc E450 sedan. The Merc is the first car since the Mark that he considers "luxury".

Of course the G70 is nothing like those in size or in "cush", but in terms of market positioning I think the G70 V6 is more expensive than the Cordobas and Thunderbirds (in adjusted dollars, of course) of the 1970s, about the same as the Coupe DeVille, and a little cheaper than the Lincoln Mark IV.

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[Volfy]

I'm too young to know anything about those older coupes. I did get to drive the last gen T-bird though and thought that was not at all a good car. They were trying to cash in on Miata's popularity and missed the target by a country mile. Hats off to Mazda for sticking true to the formula that made it such a endearing driver's car. Even the BMW clownshoes, which paid homage to Miata, really wasn't as successful... too much weight, too much luxury, too much money, not enough Fahrvergnügen.

 

[orange260z]

I'm too young to know anything about those older coupes. I did get to drive the last gen T-bird though and thought that was not at all a good car. They were trying to cash in on Miata's popularity and missed the target by a country mile. Hats off to Mazda for sticking true to the formula that made it such an endearing driver's car. Even the BMW clownshoes, which paid homage to Miata, really wasn't as successful... too much weight, too much luxury, too much money, not enough Fahrvergnügen.

Yeah, the Z3, Solstice, even the Honda Del Sol to some extent. I’m amazed that they’ve managed to keep the current model so light despite all the additional equipment. I’m afraid to go and test drive one because I might be tempted to do something dumb.

A buddy had the Z4 3.0si (N52 NA straight six) at the same time as I had the Boxster (actually, he still has it along with a C8 Vette and the same NA Miata he started out with in 1993). His Z4 has a very different character than the Miata (heavier, more comfortable, more luxury, and waaay more power) but is actually quite a fun car to drive, with lots of smooth power through the back wheels you’re practically sitting on.

 

[JBF]

I think the G70 is a 4 door just to be in a different classification for insurance. It REALLY is a 2 door.

 

[Backslack]

I think Mazda is following Genesis's successful playbook of going all RWD-based for their luxury offerings.

Not so successful given how slowly their much-hyped CX-90 is selling.

EVs Sell the Slowest, Sitting on Dealer Lots 21 Days Longer Than Hybrids - iSeeCars.com

Study shows new car sales have dropped 26 percent, while used cars are selling 31 percent faster. For both new and used cars, EVs sell the slowest while...

www.iseecars.com

I also very much doubt Mazda is actually interested in producing any new luxury coupe when they had to rebadge a Chinese car as the new Mazda 6.

https://www.caranddriver.com/news/a60604525/mazda-ez-6-ev-sedan-details/

 

[orange260z]

Not so successful given how slowly their much-hyped CX-90 is selling.

View attachment 58884

EVs Sell the Slowest, Sitting on Dealer Lots 21 Days Longer Than Hybrids - iSeeCars.com

Study shows new car sales have dropped 26 percent, while used cars are selling 31 percent faster. For both new and used cars, EVs sell the slowest while...

www.iseecars.com

I also very much doubt Mazda is actually interested in producing any new luxury coupe when they had to rebadge a Chinese car as the new Mazda 6.

https://www.caranddriver.com/news/a60604525/mazda-ez-6-ev-sedan-details/

That's too bad, the CX90 was actually quite refreshing to drive. I drove a top-trim model with the 340hp turbo straight six on a short autocross course, and it was quite an impressive handler for a large SUV (well, technically mid-sized I guess). I love the exterior styling, and the interior was just beautiful, comfortable, and premium. If I were buying in that category, it would likely be my choice.

BUT

Are most mid-sized SUV buyers "drivers"? No, and for them the short term value play (Kia, Hyundai) or the long term value play (Toyota) is likely more attractive. Very sad.

 

[Backslack]

That's too bad, the CX90 was actually quite refreshing to drive. I drove a top-trim model with the 340hp turbo straight six on a short autocross course, and it was quite an impressive handler for a large SUV (well, technically mid-sized I guess). I love the exterior styling, and the interior was just beautiful, comfortable, and premium. If I were buying in that category, it would likely be my choice.

BUT

Are most mid-sized SUV buyers "drivers"? No, and for them the short term value play (Kia, Hyundai) or the long term value play (Toyota) is likely more attractive. Very sad.

Mazda's big screw-up with the CX-90 was the pitiful amount of space for such a large car, the third row is honestly almost as useless as the old Lexus RX-L. It's one of the biggest cars in its segment yet has arguably the least interior volume, which is the main reason people buy these three-row's to begin with.

 

[orange260z]

Mazda's big screw-up with the CX-90 was the pitiful amount of space for such a large car, the third row is honestly almost as useless as the old Lexus RX-L. It's one of the biggest cars in its segment yet has arguably the least interior volume, which is the main reason people buy these three-row's to begin with.

TBH, I didn't even look at the 3rd row or luggage space.

 

[Volfy]

Not so successful given how slowly their much-hyped CX-90 is selling.

View attachment 58884

EVs Sell the Slowest, Sitting on Dealer Lots 21 Days Longer Than Hybrids - iSeeCars.com

Study shows new car sales have dropped 26 percent, while used cars are selling 31 percent faster. For both new and used cars, EVs sell the slowest while...

www.iseecars.com

I also very much doubt Mazda is actually interested in producing any new luxury coupe when they had to rebadge a Chinese car as the new Mazda 6.

https://www.caranddriver.com/news/a60604525/mazda-ez-6-ev-sedan-details/

Copying a successful formula is no guarantee for success. The single biggest obstacle is trying to sell a luxury car in a non-luxury brand dealership. Hyundai knows this all too well with the Genesis. Mazda themselves tried this back in the '90s and failed at it.

As for the lack of interior room, that is the unavoidable outcome of switching to RWD. The north-south engine/tranny architecture pushes the front axle further up front and eat into to wheelbase that could otherwise be used for interior space. It is the same reason G70 has less interior room than a comparable FWD platform. The Genesis RWD-based SUVs are no different, yet they have no problem selling them by the truckloads. At some point, the exclusivity that comes with no being lumped into the hordes of FWD-based economy cars - combine with the driving dynamics of a RWD - trumps the shortcoming of interior space efficiency.

Since we are mostly G70 owners here in a G70 forum discussion mostly RWD platform, we should all understand this compromise and are aware of what is important to us. And what is arguably not.

 

[Backslack]

Copying a successful formula is no guarantee for success. The single biggest obstacle is trying to sell a luxury car in a non-luxury brand dealership. Hyundai knows this all too well with the Genesis. Mazda themselves tried this back in the '90s and failed at it.

As for the lack of interior room, that is the unavoidable outcome of switching to RWD. The north-south engine/tranny architecture pushes the front axle further up front and eat into to wheelbase that could otherwise be used for interior space. It is the same reason G70 has less interior room than a comparable FWD platform. The Genesis RWD-based SUVs are no different, yet they have no problem selling them by the truckloads. At some point, the exclusivity that comes with no being lumped into the hordes of FWD-based economy cars - combine with the driving dynamics of a RWD - trumps the shortcoming of interior space efficiency.

Since we are mostly G70 owners here in a G70 forum discussion mostly RWD platform, we should all understand this compromise and are aware of what is important to us. And what is arguably not.

The Kia EV9, an almost $80k Kia vehicle is having no issues selling right now. Meanwhile the most expensive version of the CX-90 tops out at $60k, which is identical to a loaded Toyota Grand Highlander (that also sells like hotcakes).

RWD isn't the issue. The CX-90 has less combined legroom than a much smaller X5, which itself has less legroom than a GV80. Mazda just did a terrible job with packaging and completely misunderstood the entire point of a three-row.

 

[orange260z]

Copying a successful formula is no guarantee for success. The single biggest obstacle is trying to sell a luxury car in a non-luxury brand dealership. Hyundai knows this all too well with the Genesis. Mazda themselves tried this back in the '90s and failed at it.

Yep, I owned of 23 (ok, slight exaggeration) Mazda Millenias ever sold, a 2000 Millenia S. I ended up owning it for just a year, mainly because I test drove and fell in love with the then-new Lexus IS300, but also because of the poor Mazda dealer experience.

For those of you who don't know, the Millenia S was designed to be sold as an Amati, which was going to be Mazda's "Genesis". In 2000, it was about ~$45K in Canada (more than a fully-equipped BMW 330i); it was built to a much higher standard than any other Mazda, and quite a bit more expensive than anything else they sold at that time. What made it unique in the market was the use of a tiny 2.3L "Miller Cycle" V6, which used a combination of a lower compression ratio and supercharger to deliver power and efficiency.

Mazda Millenia Ad

I may have heard of someone who drove across the ~150km Hwy 108 "the Renous" in New Brunswick in a 2000 Millenia S with 4 passengers at sustained speeds in excess of 200km/h. This was an old logging highway with very little traffic through a completely unpopulated area. The passengers in my the back seat (my parents) didn't even realize we went that fast, they were just surprised when we got to the other end in ~45mins.

Despite how great the car was, the dealer experience was no different than I had owning a 323 - when I asked about a loaner car when my car was in for the annual service, they told me to take a bus. I test drove the Lexus (and bought it) the next day.

That said, Lexus here was co-located with Toyota; but they had dedicated sales staff, dedicated service advisors, Lexus-trained techs that prioritized Lexus work, an exclusive lounge with complimentary treats and private offices, complimentary loaners (including gas!!), and complimentary detailing with any service. If Lexus made a car that I liked right now, I'd go back in a heartbeat.