2 years on are the Genesis Engines outclassed?

[wallymn]

Infiniti, BMW, MB, all have new/updated Engines in 2011 which out power the Tau or Lambda engines... Does Hyundai need to update?

I love the Tau, a little more low end torque is all that it needs...
It could be done with a bore to 5.0 litre or a supercharger..

Not sure if the Lambda 3.8 can be pushed to the 335 HP range needed to compete with other sixes ...

what are your thoughts?

 

[ctrcbob]

Infiniti, BMW, MB, all have new/updated Engines in 2011 which out power the Tau or Lambda engines... Does Hyundai need to update?

I love the Tau, a little more low end torque is all that it needs...
It could be done with a bore to 5.0 litre or a supercharger..

Not sure if the Lambda 3.8 can be pushed to the 335 HP range needed to compete with other sixes ...

what are your thoughts?

If you intend to race your car, I guess all that power is ok. You remind me of the guys on mercurymarauder.net (I had a Marauder) who already have all the power that they can ever use, but they want to (and do) add Superchargers to their engines.

You can only go just so fast, just every so often, before the boys in blue come after you. You can't outrun Mr. Motorola!

My 375 HP is more than I will ever use, and as for the BMW's and Mercedes, well they both are overpriced. I had a BMW and it was the most overpriced POS I ever had. (I believed all that BMW hype). Could not wait to sell it.

JMHO

 

[jwaters943]

In the luxury/sport segment the HP wars never end. I don't feel the Genesis engines are uncompetitive, especially at their price point. Heck, look at the TL/RL, S80, A6, new 9-5, CTS/STS, and GS460. None can match/beat the Genesis in terms of accelerative performance, in spite of their much higher price tags.

In any event, it's all but a sure thing the Genesis will get powertrain enhancements for 2011. Rumors suggest the 3.8 will get 305hp and the 4.6 will be bored out to 5.0 liters and get 400+ hp, plus the addition of Hyundai's in-house developed 8-speed auto. Personally I find anything above 250hp in a 3800-4000 lb. car icing on the cake. While it's nice for bragging rights or if you plan to take your car to the track, for the average person it's overkill. How many people really use all of their 375hp? If I cared solely about engine performance in a $40k full-size sedan I wouldn't have bought a Genesis anyway. I would have gone with a G8 GXP or SRT-8.

 

[Dimitry]

Engines are constantly being improved - I don't doubt that BMW, Mercedes, or others will continue to refine their engines.

I'm sure Hyundai will too - With the tweaks that are available to the engine, GDI - boring it more, among others improvements, I am sure it will eventually be able to push 450 horses and 375 torque.

I'm happy with the Tau now, I'm sure they will continue improving it. I'm not sure if they'll add GDI or other things by next year, though

 

[Bobby41909]

come on guys....you can't have too much HP. I don't have a Genesis yet.....yet....waiting until the wifes Lexus IS lease runs out. Can't wait because we need more room for the family. But once the kids and wife are out of the car and you have the time to open it up...the more HP the bigger the smile...Especially if you happen to be at a stop light next to one of this cars competition...

 

[Mark_888]

Infiniti, BMW, MB, all have new/updated Engines in 2011 which out power the Tau or Lambda engines...

They also have their old engines with the same or similar amounts of power as before (that do not out-power the Tau) that 95% of their customers will buy.

 

[Snake33]

Those manufactures are only making the engine improvements to keep up with the Genesis. I have the 4.6 and it's more than enough horses. I'm sure Hyundai will continue to put the pressure on MB and BMW.

09 Genesis 4.6
Black/Grey Interior

 

[wallymn]

Those manufactures are only making the engine improvements to keep up with the Genesis. I have the 4.6 and it's more than enough horses. I'm sure Hyundai will continue to put the pressure on MB and BMW.

09 Genesis 4.6
Black/Grey Interior

I very much agree with the statement that 375 HP is more than enough (for me) however I would like a little more low end torque.

It will be interesting to see if 2011 or 2012 brings a displacement change to the Tau... remember CAFE numbers are only going up.

 

[jwaters943]

I very much agree with the statement that 375 HP is more than enough (for me) however I would like a little more low end torque.

It will be interesting to see if 2011 or 2012 brings a displacement change to the Tau... remember CAFE numbers are only going up.

Yes, but Hyundai is already the most fuel efficient automaker and the Genesis is hardly a high-volume model. I can't see them worrying too much about fuel economy on the Genesis or Equus.

The new Sonata already gets 35mpg. The next-gen Elantra, next-gen Accent, and upcoming Tiburon replacement should all get roughly 38-40mg on the highway (based on claims from Hyundai). And there are rumors the next-gen Santa Fe is ditching it's V6 for 2 GDI 4-cylinder engines from the Sonata (one NA, the other turbo-charged). In the heavier/bulkier Santa Fe I would expect low 30 mpg fuel economy figures. The Tucson is also supposed to get the GDI engine from the Sonata at some point in the near future which should boost it's already excellent fuel economy figures by a couple MPG. And that's not even counting hybrids. Last I heard there is to be at least 3 hybids int he lineup within 3 years time (Sonata, Elantra, Santa Fe). And if Hyundai's iFlow diesel hybrid ever makes it to production the fuel economy is reported to be in the neighborhood of 75mpg.

And FWIW, Hyundai has stated that the 8-speed auto is more efficient than the existing ZF 6-speed . I would expect at least a 1mpg improvement, in spite of the likely increased HP (if they do in fact increase displacement from 4.6 to 5.0 liters). Which should be enough to hold onto it's position as the most fuel efficient full-size V8 powered sedan. GDI is also on it's way for the Genesis engines at some point, but who knows when.

 

[scottdk]

come on guys....you can't have too much HP.

Thank you Bobby! Agreed! It's only over kill if it's unusable power that you can't put to the ground due to tire, suspension etc.

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[SCVDon]

In the luxury/sport segment the HP wars never end. I don't feel the Genesis engines are uncompetitive, especially at their price point. Heck, look at the TL/RL, S80, A6, new 9-5, CTS/STS, and GS460. None can match/beat the Genesis in terms of accelerative performance, in spite of their much higher price tags.

In any event, it's all but a sure thing the Genesis will get powertrain enhancements for 2011. Rumors suggest the 3.8 will get 305hp and the 4.6 will be bored out to 5.0 liters and get 400+ hp, plus the addition of Hyundai's in-house developed 8-speed auto. Personally I find anything above 250hp in a 3800-4000 lb. car icing on the cake. While it's nice for bragging rights or if you plan to take your car to the track, for the average person it's overkill. How many people really use all of their 375hp? If I cared solely about engine performance in a $40k full-size sedan I wouldn't have bought a Genesis anyway. I would have gone with a G8 GXP or SRT-8.

+1

Also, what is the fuel economy of these other cars? Our V-8 is giving us V6 economy on top of the power it offers. OBTW, my '06 GTO with 400 HP gets 1/2 the economy of the Genny. So the extra HP comes at what price?

 

[JamesD]

I agree with most comments here...but I'll remind you that Hyundai is planning on launching the Equus, which probably needs (for marketing reasons) higher power output than the Genesis 4.6. My guess is that it will get the rumored 5-liter version of the Tau, possibly with direct injection. That would space it out just about right vis-a-vis the Genesis. I expect that a supercharged version of this engine, if there really is going to be one, will be reserved for "special" models of one or both of these cars.

Don't underestimate the pressure on fuel economy. Even though the Genesis has little volume impact on the line, this isn't the time to be increasing fuel consumption on anything, and Hyundai has a better shot playing it's fuel economy advantage than in trying to win an outright horsepower race. BTW, have you noticed how the German boys have been dropping V8's and twin-turbos like hot potatoes? The 4.6-5 liter range is a real sweet spot for a small block V8, and I think Hyundai will look back on that choice as a very smart decision.

 

[scottdk]

Infiniti, BMW, MB, all have new/updated Engines in 2011 which out power the Tau or Lambda engines... Does Hyundai need to update?

I love the Tau, a little more low end torque is all that it needs...
It could be done with a bore to 5.0 litre or a supercharger..

Not sure if the Lambda 3.8 can be pushed to the 335 HP range needed to compete with other sixes ...

what are your thoughts?

I also think the Tau is low on torque. The Tau has less torque then most engines in the same class, but leads on HP.

I see the new M45 will be the M56 having a 5.6 Liter boasting 420hp and 417 lbs feet of torque.

It will be interesting to see a big heavy car with that engine in it. Has the Genesis been out-done? Possibly, but I can't fully agree since the Infinity costs $30,000 more

 

[davparlr]

290 hp on regular is great. The Acura TL, BMW 328i, Lexus ES350, or the MB E350 do not have that hp on premium fuel. I would not trade the regular fuel for more horses or a few less cubic inches. 0-60 in 5.9-6.2 sec is plenty fast.

 

[Sayantsi]

300 and 400 hp are plenty and are class competitive for now. The next thing will be direct injection; with that you will see nice power gains and better fuel economy. its pretty easy to engineer as well since its just the top of the engine that is redesigned.

Hyundai has it on the new Sonata, so expect it on more cars in the upcoming years. By the time the new genesis comes out, I expect it to be DI.

 

[DavidNJ]

The Genesis engines were obsolete when the car was introduced. A modern engine NEEDS direct fuel injection. That coupled with variable intake and exhaust valve timing lets you hang the intake valve open and decrease valve overlap. The first lets the engine have manageable dynamic compression (under 9:1) while maintaining the high expansion ratio of an Atkinson cycle engine. This is why it is common for direct injection engines to have compression ratios of 12:1 or higher. It also makes them MUCH more efficient.

The second engine feature is variable valve lift. While some cars (Hondas, Porsches, Toyotas) use dual camshaft lobes with hydraulically switched rocker arms, the more sophisticated systems (BMW, Nissan) continuously vary the rocker arm fulcrum position.

Supercharging or turbocharging can improve efficiency as they do in the 177hp 1.4L VW Twin-charger. However, it is only when used in conjunction with high expansion ratios (and therefore fairly low boost) do they improve efficiency.

Other popular efficiency (and power) enhancements include electrically driving all engine ancillaries. This started with the water cooling fan and the power assist for steering. It has been continued to include the air conditioning compressor and water pump. Drag racers have had electric water pumps for years.

IMHO, it makes little sense for a family sedan to be able to do 1/4 miles in 14s@105mph. That is as fast as a 1969 427 Corvette TriPower with L71 heads. Or my 1994 Twin Turbo Supra.

 

[wallymn]

The Genesis engines were obsolete when the car was introduced. A modern engine NEEDS direct fuel injection. That coupled with variable intake and exhaust valve timing lets you hang the intake valve open and decrease valve overlap. The first lets the engine have manageable dynamic compression (under 9:1) while maintaining the high expansion ratio of an Atkinson cycle engine. This is why it is common for direct injection engines to have compression ratios of 12:1 or higher. It also makes them MUCH more efficient.

The second engine feature is variable valve lift. While some cars (Hondas, Porsches, Toyotas) use dual camshaft lobes with hydraulically switched rocker arms, the more sophisticated systems (BMW, Nissan) continuously vary the rocker arm fulcrum position.

Supercharging or turbocharging can improve efficiency as they do in the 177hp 1.4L VW Twin-charger. However, it is only when used in conjunction with high expansion ratios (and therefore fairly low boost) do they improve efficiency.

Other popular efficiency (and power) enhancements include electrically driving all engine ancillaries. This started with the water cooling fan and the power assist for steering. It has been continued to include the air conditioning compressor and water pump. Drag racers have had electric water pumps for years.

IMHO, it makes little sense for a family sedan to be able to do 1/4 miles in 14s@105mph. That is as fast as a 1969 427 Corvette TriPower with L71 heads. Or my 1994 Twin Turbo Supra.

The Tau lead the category in HP when it shipped in 2009 beating BMW,MB,Infiniti and Lexus...

I agree DI would be a huge improvement when the TAU shipped no V8 was offering DI.

I am not sure I would call the Genesis a family sedan......

Every car should be as fast as you can afford it to be (if that is what you want, and I want)....

 

[DavidNJ]

Not trying to start an argument, every new V8 at that point was direct injection. I believe the Audi 4.2 FSI was out in 2007. To me, the engines and a few features kept out of the US market were a disappointment.

Whether it is a family sedan depends on your budget. I would imagine most E-class, A6, and M35 buyers consider their cars family sedans. Ours (as our 5-series did before) has a fold down rear seat, a feature missing on the Genesis.

If you need the power...let me ask, how many times do you hold your foot flat to the floor until the engine shifts? You only get to do that twice, as the 2-3 shift in nearly every car puts you at or close to the highway speed limit. Most cars start to have controllably issues when full power is applied, front wheel drive cars especially. Many front wheel drive cars and nearly all high performance front wheel drive cars use their ECMs to limit power in the lower gears.

I doubt 1% of Supercharged Jaguar F-type buyers press their pedal to the floor for more than 5 seconds more than once per year.

Sidebar: if the F-type came with the diesel and CATS suspension it would be my first choice. However, the CATS is only available on the supercharged versions, and to me the ride is unacceptable without it.

 

[Mark_888]

Not trying to start an argument, every new V8 at that point was direct injection. I believe the Audi 4.2 FSI was out in 2007.

Direct Injection is not a panacea. There are potential problems associated with DI, such as fuel dilution (when fuel is more likely to get into the lubrication system and dilute the effectiveness of the crankcase oil). It is not a coincidence that many (most?) of the German DI engines require a very robust synthetic motor oil (typically 0W-40 synthetic).

Anyone interested in this subject can google it for more info.

 

[Sayantsi]

Not trying to start an argument, every new V8 at that point was direct injection. I believe the Audi 4.2 FSI was out in 2007. To me, the engines and a few features kept out of the US market were a disappointment.

Whether it is a family sedan depends on your budget. I would imagine most E-class, A6, and M35 buyers consider their cars family sedans. Ours (as our 5-series did before) has a fold down rear seat, a feature missing on the Genesis.

If you need the power...let me ask, how many times do you hold your foot flat to the floor until the engine shifts? You only get to do that twice, as the 2-3 shift in nearly every car puts you at or close to the highway speed limit. Most cars start to have controllably issues when full power is applied, front wheel drive cars especially. Many front wheel drive cars and nearly all high performance front wheel drive cars use their ECMs to limit power in the lower gears.

Fwiw, Hyundai calls the Genesis a sports sedan, and I agree with that given what package a sports sedan typically has, especially rwd, which is a huge factor in vehicle dynamics and the personality of the car. If you want a Hyundai family sedan, the Azera will meet your needs with less power and fwd. And power isn't just about geting up to the speed limit, its also for avoidance at speed, and for smaller bursts when you want or need it, imo.