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2010 Mercedes E350

TJPark01

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Just got back from MB dealer. Was helping my mom out, she is looking to get an E350. After dissecting the car at the dealership I concluded that the car is one of the biggest ripoffs I've seen in recent memory.
The trim level was Premium 2/Sport Package, which is the top of the line model and stickers just shy of 60k.
Me: Is this leather?
MB: No it's leatherette.
Me: How much for leather?
MB: It's rare, car doesn't really come packaged that way, you have to step up to the E550.
Me: 60 grand a no leather? Sorry but putting Vinyl seats in a Mercedes is like putting ketchup on sushi.
 
According to the Mercedes website, leather is a $1,590 option on the base model. Most likely the dealer didn't have any E350's in stock with leather, so said it was not available on the base model. Not true. You actually get leather without the Premium or Sport Package if you willing to wait for one to be built.
 
According to the Mercedes website, leather is a $1,590 option on the base model. Most likely the dealer didn't have any E350's in stock with leather, so said it was not available on the base model. Not true. You actually get leather without the Premium or Sport Package if you willing to wait for one to be built.
The fact that it's an option on a 58k is insulting. I called another dealer to make sure. He had 1, fully loaded E350, 65k sticker. He confirmed it's not a stand alone option, it usually comes packaged with other options. All the other E350's in stock, no leather. Like I said...RIPOFF.
 
I hope Hyundai keeps it simple and standard like they currently have it on the Genesis - Loaded, or really loaded. I was really close to getting a 5-series and it was hilarious of the number of options you can get that would be standard on the Genesis - literally nearly 14k in options to get everything the Genesis has. The ipod adapter is 300$, haha
 
I hope Hyundai keeps it simple and standard like they currently have it on the Genesis - Loaded, or really loaded. I was really close to getting a 5-series and it was hilarious of the number of options you can get that would be standard on the Genesis - literally nearly 14k in options to get everything the Genesis has. The ipod adapter is 300$, haha
I also went to the Acura store and they have it down pat. Either the car (RDX) is base, or tech, like the Genesis. There are two versions and that's it. Like you said loaded or really loaded.
Audi,BMW and MB, make the process annoyingly complex with all these add on options, that aren't packaged together in any logical way. It's almost signaling, hey, if you're so worried about money you're at the wrong place.
 
I called another dealer to make sure. He had 1, fully loaded E350, 65k sticker. He confirmed it's not a stand alone option, it usually comes packaged with other options. All the other E350's in stock, no leather. Like I said...RIPOFF.
I don't care what any MB dealer says, leather is a stand-alone option on the E350 and can be special ordered on the base model without any other options. It is just that cars built and shipped to dealers to stock in inventory (as opposed to special order) normally don't have leather on a base model (because someone decided not to order the leather except on loaded models). But if one is willing to special order a Mercedes (admittedly not a short wait) then you can get whatever options you want or don't want.

I have said several times in other threads that one of the first rules of sales is to tell the customer that if a customer asks about something not in stock ready to sell, then tell the customer it doesn't exist or you can't get it. Even though they can special order it, they don't get their sales commission until the the car is delivered, and they are worried about paying the mortgage this month (not 3 months from now) and are willing to gamble that you will believe the BS and that you will buy what they have in stock right now.

Obviously, I don't disagree with you about the car being way overpriced compared to a Genesis.
 
MB SUVs in dealer inventory are worse...up to $80k with vinyl.

MB has had this 'leather' option (standard in the US I think) where the center strip of the two front seats are leather. The cloth in other markets (preferable to the vinyl) isn't available in the US.

A bigger problem is the quality of the leather. The standard MB leather in an E-class would embarrass a Honda Accord, a car with the style of off-brand ice-cream for Walmart. To get good leather you needs an S-class or AMG with Nappa leather or to order the ventilated seats. However, the ventilated seats are no longer available on the 6-cylinder E-class. Our 2005 E320CDI has the leather and drive-dynamic seats (with massagers) left and right.
 
Strange as it may seem, many MB and BMW owners prefer the leatherette because it is more durable and they claim that most people don't even know it is not leather.

I also found this qutoe:

"Mercedes has decided to make its full line of vehicles available with synthetic interiors if a customer requests it, under pressure from the advocacy group People for the Ethical Treatment of Animals (PETA)."​
 
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I'm sure MB also passed the saving down to the cunsumer. ;-)
 
Having to pay xtra for leather in a 58k car is a joke. Having the trunk unfinished is also laughable. OK on a Accord or on a Hyundai, yeah I get it and people will accept it, but on a Benz, you expect premium product when you are paying premium prices. If I buy a Rolex, nothing on it should be fake.
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The fact that it's an option on a 58k is insulting. I called another dealer to make sure. He had 1, fully loaded E350, 65k sticker. He confirmed it's not a stand alone option, it usually comes packaged with other options. All the other E350's in stock, no leather. Like I said...RIPOFF.

This has been my issue with Mercedes, and really all the big three Germans for a while - paying extra for some pretty basic stuff, especially at that price point.

Cloth can be an option, but should i really have to pay $2-3k for heater leather seats? Pricing an E class to what I want makes it a mid-$50s vehicle - +$20k more than what I paid for my Genesis, which is why I have a Genesis...

Actually, I just checked out an E350 on the m-b site.

MSRP starts at $49k. To get blue paint (similar to my Genesis) I have to add $720. To get the leather interior, I need another $1600, plus the Sport package. 18" wheels are another $750. Heated front seats are $740. Rear side air bags are $410. iPod interface kit is $480.

$55k total for German engineering, but with less hp, and in a smaller car. My V6 Genesis was $32k, with a moon roof to boot.
 
The leather on an Accord/Camry is thin and plastic coated; not as good as some vinyls. You need need to be in to the better leathers to get the good stuff. At MB/BMW/Audi compare their standard leathers (say a 3 series or A4) with the Nappa or other leather on a high end model (750 or A8).

MB is even worse, with manual lumbar support on the 6 cylinder E-class.

Note that nearly every Genesis feature is on the similar size and price Infiniti G37 or Cadillac CTS.
 
I have never liked Hyundai's. To me they were basically a punchline to a very old joke. The cars I had before this was CLS500, 530i,LS400 (still have that one). My friend and I were test driving the following GS350,G37,528i,Acura RL. After the test drives, we both concluded the G37 was probably the best car overall. He emailed me the next day and told me to check out the Genesis. I asked him if he was joking. The following weekend, I went to a Hoonday, dealership on may way home, expecting a good laugh. I couldn't believe what I saw.
I had the exact opposite experience at the MB dealership. I went there thinking I was going to see a great car. Total dissapointment. What I saw at the autoshow was exactly what I was hoping not to see at the dealer. Really poor execution in a prohibitively expensive car. Just look at the trunks of the two cars... what is wrong with these pictures?
 

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So TJ. Other than these interior options, would you not agree that the Merc is built better UNDERNEATH. That is always what I have thought, at least with BMW/Merc, and some Audis.
 
So TJ. Other than these interior options, would you not agree that the Merc is built better UNDERNEATH. That is always what I have thought, at least with BMW/Merc, and some Audis.

Why would you think they are?
 
Why would you think they are?

Because that is what my mechanics have always told me. My current one, (BMW, MERC), is always pointing out this and that is thicker steel on the chassis, etc... more massive/substantial parts for almost every component underneath. He has pointed it out to me a bunch of times while the cars are up on the lift. I don't doubt him, I just tell him, if the Germans would sub-contract out the electronics to the Japanese, they would have the ultimate vehicle, which he totally agrees with.

Another example, I remember when Merc and Chrysler started "using" each other, and an article I read described how the Chrysler engineer guys were all freaked out over the ridiculously hi-strength steel that Merc had developed, and that what they were using (Chrysler), was no where in the same ballpark.
 
So TJ. Other than these interior options, would you not agree that the Merc is built better UNDERNEATH. That is always what I have thought, at least with BMW/Merc, and some Audis.
Built better than what? I don't believe that they are better than the Genesis Sedan or Equus, because Hyundai set out to build a no-holds barred vehicle, regardless of whether it made any money.

In terms of measured reliability (repair costs over the life of the car), it would be hard to argue MB/BMW are better than Lexus.
 
Because that is what my mechanics have always told me. My current one, (BMW, MERC), is always pointing out this and that is thicker steel on the chassis, etc... more massive/substantial parts for almost every component underneath. He has pointed it out to me a bunch of times while the cars are up on the lift. I don't doubt him, I just tell him, if the Germans would sub-contract out the electronics to the Japanese, they would have the ultimate vehicle, which he totally agrees with.

Another example, I remember when Merc and Chrysler started "using" each other, and an article I read described how the Chrysler engineer guys were all freaked out over the ridiculously hi-strength steel that Merc had developed, and that what they were using (Chrysler), was no where in the same ballpark.
There are downsides to using thicker steel on a vehicle frame, not the least of which is more weight and poorer MPG. In today's world, these are not insignificant issues.

When was the last time anyone actually had a problem with a car because the chassis steel was not thick enough?

There are advantages to having a chassis which is very rigid (such as improved handling), and the Hyundai Genesis sedan achieves that in part by using high-tech adhesives instead of massive steel chassis components, although I don't think the Genesis chassis steel is skimpy. Hyundai claims that the 2009 Genesis sedan was 30% more rigid than a 2009 E350 (don't know about the 2010's).
 
So TJ. Other than these interior options, would you not agree that the Merc is built better UNDERNEATH. That is always what I have thought, at least with BMW/Merc, and some Audis.
I would say that was true 20 years ago, but the world has caught up to them, and in many ways passed them. The cars are less reliable (mostly due to electronics), mechanically they have always been sound but I think there is a feeling that they got over-engineered. There are nice subtle touches in say Mercedes that you will see such as a double layered firewall, 2 or three latches that hold the trunk down, the way the doors close that makes them feel like a vault. Unfortunately most of this is just window dressing, as they don't manifest in the better safety crash test results.
Unfortunately, people like me who were pure Merc, BMW buyers are now open to the idea of Lexus and even (gasp) Hyundai. We have the 1989 LS 400 to thank for this. That car turned the status quo upside down. Whether the Genesis does the same remains to be seen, but 10 years from now we may point to the Genesis as a game changer if not at the very least a company changer in the way Hyundai is perceived by the world.
 
Some have more features and technology. For instance, MB and BMW have had microwave (radar) cruise control for years while Toyota and others had the vastly inferior IR laser based systems. BMW and Audi have virtually all direct injected engines. BMW was first with variable valve lift from varying the rocker fulcrum, which let them eliminated the throttle. BMW has typically done a better job with shocks, but not really better than Bilstein replacements (which are not available for the Genesis).

The Europeans used unit body construction when body on frame still dominated in the US. Without speed limits, German cars (and only German cars) of the 50s, 60s, 70s, and 80s typically had stiffer chassis, more fade resistant brakes, engines that could run under heavy load and high engine speeds, and a high degree of directional stability when other cars didn't. Japanese cars, where speeds where slow and roads were narrow generally were weak in these areas.

Because of taxes the European cars had smaller displacement engines, which needed a higher state of tune to produce adequate power. The smaller displacement and higher state of tune resulted in a power curve soft on the bottom. By comparison, US engines had a fake HP war and usually operated at a fraction of their peak engine speeds. With no displacement tax and much lower fuel taxes, efficiency and displacement weren't issues so they became huge displacement engines in low states of tune. Cadillac had a 472cu.in. engine (nearly 8 liters) that would probably be around 220hp by current measurements.

The directional stability in the German cars in particular (but really all European cars) often came with a large amount of positive caster. The American cars of the time came with little or even positive caster to make them easier to steer (power steering was an option and the cars where heavy and nose heavy). The US manufacturers resisted disc brakes because they needed power assist, drums have a servo-assist (as do wedge brakes).

Because they were more expensive relative to incomes they also tended to use better materials for rubber bushings and gaskets. However, they were still rubber (on a Rolls they were steel).

Emission laws made everyone make engines that lasted over 100k miles. Fuel economy laws and consumer demands also affected design. Crash testing laws and safety equipment improved chassis. Nearly every new model even today is has a stiffer and lighter chassis than its predecessor as the result of designs on newer software and improved manufacturing processes. For example light truck chassis used to be made from extruded steel C sections. They are now made from hydroformed box sections.

Net: there are a few differences, but they are mainly the result of the vehicle price points, engineering staff capabilities, and marketing decisions. For example, BMW, which also adheres to straight 6s, usually has the smoothest engines.
 
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