Extended warranty - has anybody bought one? Do any Genesis dealers sell them at a discount?

[EdP]

AWD explains the high starter R&R. A lot has to come out to get to it.

Oh, I thought I'd read before the V6 ones have the auto start/stop, but maybe that's just the current body style. It's that horrible feature that shuts off the engine when you're stopped at a light with your foot on the brake, and starts the engine back up when you take your foot off the brake. If you have that "feature", it's always on by default when you start the car so you'd know if you had it.

However, that has a much better starter than the typical car. It is far more rugged and part of a system to do the more frequent starts.

 

[GnatGoSplat]

However, that has a much better starter than the typical car. It is far more rugged and part of a system to do the more frequent starts.

It may be, but if it has to kick in dozens of times a day, it can't last forever.
I've driven several rental Hyundai/Kia vehicles with the feature. Last one a '25 Kia Telluride. I hate it (the feature - the SUV itself was decent). Laggy off the line and AC quits blowing cold. Doesn't remember the disabled setting, so it has to be disabled every start. I don't care about the negligible fuel saving, so the feature is all drawbacks with no benefits for me.

 

[LBTX]

What bothers me about this feature ( I've had it on rental cars) and others is that they never asked the person during these cars is this a feature you want. These car companies all seem to follow the crowd versus actually talking to the end user. Who the heck on TX, az or other hot states want the damn AC to shut off while sitting at a 2 minute red light in the middle of August? No one. At least they got it right with the touch screens and general use of buttons for the mundane every day things.

 

[SoCalG90]

AWD explains the high starter R&R. A lot has to come out to get to it.

Oh, I thought I'd read before the V6 ones have the auto start/stop, but maybe that's just the current body style. It's that horrible feature that shuts off the engine when you're stopped at a light with your foot on the brake, and starts the engine back up when you take your foot off the brake. If you have that "feature", it's always on by default when you start the car so you'd know if you had it.

For the most part, the ASS (auto stop start) is bad for the motor. The bearings need the constant oil pressure to keep things where they should be. If the oil is not where it should be (like if it drains away from the bearings when your car is off), then when it does start up, the oil is not there.

I recently watched a video from a German mechanic that explained how the system works and why it is bad for your car. It is kind of common sense, unlike the government regulation that created this system.

 

[EdP]

For the most part, the ASS (auto stop start) is bad for the motor. The bearings need the constant oil pressure to keep things where they should be. If the oil is not where it should be (like if it drains away from the bearings when your car is off), then when it does start up, the oil is not there.

I recently watched a video from a German mechanic that explained how the system works and why it is bad for your car. It is kind of common sense, unlike the government regulation that created this system.

Commonly know as ISG. Idle, Stop, Go.
Did he mention the electric oil pump to maintain pressure? Did he show the starter motor that is not at all like the ones we otherwise use?

 

[GnatGoSplat]

Commonly know as ISG. Idle, Stop, Go.
Did he mention the electric oil pump to maintain pressure? Did he show the starter motor that is not at all like the ones we otherwise use?

Electric oil pumps aren't common in auto start/stop systems. Are you sure the Hyundai/Kia system has one? From what I've read, it's not necessary as these systems only activate when the engine is at operating temps and oil flow is optimal. They'll restart after idling so long, I assume to prevent the engine/oil cooling excessively. I read one Porsche system had an auxiliary electric oil pump, but removed it in later years as it proved unnecessary.

If I owned a car with such a system, I'd want to permanently disable it and just enjoy the fact I have a starter that's greatly overbuilt for the amount of utilization and enjoy the possibility that I'll never have to replace it in my lifetime.

Neither here nor there, but kind of a fun fact: Most of the time, the starter motor is designed for better longevity, but looks and works like a standard gear reduction starter. They bolt onto the same location, mount similarly, but just beefier with a strengthened flywheel. Other systems use a more unusual design where the alternator and starter are one integrated unit. I believe the current G90 uses such a system. The integrated starter/alternator are more common in mild hybrids. I'd guess those systems are much easier to service, being on the front of the engine instead of underneath. They're also brushless, so likely more reliable than even conventional style auto start/stop starters.

 

[srobak]

What bothers me about this feature ( I've had it on rental cars) and others is that they never asked the person during these cars is this a feature you want. These car companies all seem to follow the crowd versus actually talking to the end user. Who the heck on TX, az or other hot states want the damn AC to shut off while sitting at a 2 minute red light in the middle of August? No one. At least they got it right with the touch screens and general use of buttons for the mundane every day things.

I believe this was federally mandated for some time (to be opt-out, per start), and that requirement has been yanked with the current administration. Expect that to reverse yet again when the pendulum swings again in the future.

That being said - $2k for a starter??? Even with a tow and labor.... just - wow. Genny really does think they are Merc/BMW/Audi - don't they? Seriously losing touch with their original target market even more

 

[EdP]

Electric oil pumps aren't common in auto start/stop systems. Are you sure the Hyundai/Kia system has one?

Yes, in fact, there was a recall on a few for a circuit board problem.

 

[GnatGoSplat]

I believe this was federally mandated for some time (to be opt-out, per start), and that requirement has been yanked with the current administration. Expect that to reverse yet again when the pendulum swings again in the future.

That being said - $2k for a starter??? Even with a tow and labor.... just - wow. Genny really does think they are Merc/BMW/Audi - don't they? Seriously losing touch with their original target market even more

I don't believe we'll see much influence from US politics either way. The US is a large market, but it's not dominant any more. EU, China, Japan, and South Korea have all committed to stringent emissions and fuel economy targets. Automakers build powertrains to meet the toughest standards, not the most lenient ones. It's cheaper to engineer one global standard vehicle and adapt minor features for each market than to design completely separate versions.

The starter itself isn't that expensive, under $350.

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I'd bet the main cost is labor. It may not be a Merc or BMW, but they're similar in design. Longitudinal engine in a unibody car with subframe, AWD transfer case, front diff and axle going through the oil pan. I don't have access to a G90 service manual, but I do have access to some years of Mercedes S-Class and BMW 7-series service manuals. This design typically requires suspending the engine from above, unbolting the suspension (control arms, sway bar, etc), unbolting some engine-to-subframe motor mounts, then dropping the rear of the subframe to access the starter. Whole bunch of tubes, wire harnesses, and brackets along the way as well. Audi is a bit different (they are weirdly designed), but not a lot better. This is what had me considering whether I needed AWD, but ended up getting it as to the wife, it's a "must have" and I got a CPO car with warranty.

 

[LBTX]

and I got a CPO car with warranty

Smart move

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[srobak]

I don't believe we'll see much influence from US politics either way. The US is a large market, but it's not dominant any more. EU, China, Japan, and South Korea have all committed to stringent emissions and fuel economy targets. Automakers build powertrains to meet the toughest standards, not the most lenient ones. It's cheaper to engineer one global standard vehicle and adapt minor features for each market than to design completely separate versions.

This would be a minor change in programming as to the state the auto stop/start is in by default, and has already been reversed for some 26 models in other brands. It is a simple bit flip.

The starter itself isn't that expensive, under $350.

Which is double what it should be.

I'd bet the main cost is labor.

Not at all disputing that - but just saying AWD/4WD starter changes didn't use to be that way. Just proves even further that design engineers and mechanics really need to have a meeting of the minds, along with quality/lifecycle testing engineers so they can make sure that the most likely failure components are not buried. DE's are never concerned with that, not on any product - or so it seems. They are only ever interested in how tightly things can be packaged. This mentality has bled into everything we touch, now.

 

[EdP]

Not at all disputing that - but just saying AWD/4WD starter changes didn't use to be that way. Just proves even further that design engineers and mechanics really need to have a meeting of the minds, along with quality/lifecycle testing engineers so they can make sure that the most likely failure components are not buried. DE's are never concerned with that, not on any product - or so it seems. They are only ever interested in how tightly things can be packaged. This mentality has bled into everything we touch, now.

What you are looking for is the 1968 Chevy layout. Doubt we will again.
Years ago, I did most everything, water pump, generator, plugs and points. In most cars today, I can't even find those things.

As for starters, never had one go bad in 63 years, but did replace a solenoid once.

 

[GnatGoSplat]

This would be a minor change in programming as to the state the auto stop/start is in by default, and has already been reversed for some 26 models in other brands. It is a simple bit flip.

True. Maybe newer cars will be coded to remember the disabled state. It's too bad software updates like that don't typically trickle down to older models. I'd love to be able to set my car to Sport mode and have it remember it.

Which is double what it should be.

I didn't really have a frame of reference, but just looked up OEM starters for similar cars of the same era: Lexus LS460 $270, BMW 750i (G12) $637, Mercedes (W222) $473. A bit more expensive than Lexus, cheaper than Germans, but the Germans have a lot of aftermarket options for a lot cheaper (under $200). Guess that makes the G90 starter the most expensive in the end. I'll just hope I still have warranty if/when it ever fails.

Not at all disputing that - but just saying AWD/4WD starter changes didn't use to be that way. Just proves even further that design engineers and mechanics really need to have a meeting of the minds, along with quality/lifecycle testing engineers so they can make sure that the most likely failure components are not buried. DE's are never concerned with that, not on any product - or so it seems. They are only ever interested in how tightly things can be packaged. This mentality has bled into everything we touch, now.

Yeah, they're pretty much cramming the entire AWD system you'd typically find in a large SUV into the confines of a sedan. There are simpler and more compact designs, like the transverse AWD setup that's a lot more common. Starters for those are usually unimpeded by the AWD system. Drawbacks being FWD bias, long front overhang, weaker transmissions, no V8 option, and being sideways makes servicing other things more difficult. Not really an option for a true luxury car. Engineers have tried putting starters in other places: the LS400 and Northstar V8 had it tucked into the valley of the block, under the intake manifold. People who have replaced starters on those cars usually throw in a bunch of expletives when they talk about it.

As for starters, never had one go bad in 63 years, but did replace a solenoid once.

Sounds like you've never had the pleasure of owning a higher mileage FWD GM car from the late-80s and 90s. I've had 5, had to replace starters in 3. Granted, I've never had to replace a starter in anything else.

 

[LBTX]

True. Maybe newer cars will be coded to remember the disabled state. It's too bad software updates like that don't typically trickle down to older models. I'd love to be able to set my car to Sport mode and have it remember it.



I didn't really have a frame of reference, but just looked up OEM starters for similar cars of the same era: Lexus LS460 $270, BMW 750i (G12) $637, Mercedes (W222) $473. A bit more expensive than Lexus, cheaper than Germans, but the Germans have a lot of aftermarket options for a lot cheaper (under $200). Guess that makes the G90 starter the most expensive in the end. I'll just hope I still have warranty if/when it ever fails.



Yeah, they're pretty much cramming the entire AWD system you'd typically find in a large SUV into the confines of a sedan. There are simpler and more compact designs, like the transverse AWD setup that's a lot more common. Starters for those are usually unimpeded by the AWD system. Drawbacks being FWD bias, long front overhang, weaker transmissions, no V8 option, and being sideways makes servicing other things more difficult. Not really an option for a true luxury car. Engineers have tried putting starters in other places: the LS400 and Northstar V8 had it tucked into the valley of the block, under the intake manifold. People who have replaced starters on those cars usually throw in a bunch of expletives when they talk about it.



Sounds like you've never had the pleasure of owning a higher mileage FWD GM car from the late-80s and 90s. I've had 5, had to replace starters in 3. Granted, I've never had to replace a starter in anything else.

Since we are talking about starters:" $485.76 for the parts and labor is $1,129.95". That quote is for what used to be my 2004 LS430 with 285k miles. Starter died for the first time in the summer of 2024. Car was recently rear-ended and totaled for $6k. If that is the quote from the dealer fort the LS430, I suspect the LS460 would be even more expensive. All that being said, the G90 quote seems reasonable.

 

[EdP]

True. Maybe newer cars will be coded to remember the disabled state. It's too bad software updates like that don't typically trickle down to older models. I'd love to be able to set my car to Sport mode and have it remember it.

That is the EPA regulation. Must default to the method used in the testing or better.

Sounds like you've never had the pleasure of owning a higher mileage FWD GM car from the late-80s and 90s. I've had 5, had to replace starters in 3. Granted, I've never had to replace a starter in anything else.

My '83 Old Cutlass had 183,000. Did not start one day but the starter cranked it.

 

[GnatGoSplat]

Since we are talking about starters:" $485.76 for the parts and labor is $1,129.95". That quote is for what used to be my 2004 LS430 with 285k miles. Starter died for the first time in the summer of 2024. Car was recently rear-ended and totaled for $6k. If that is the quote from the dealer fort the LS430, I suspect the LS460 would be even more expensive. All that being said, the G90 quote seems reasonable.

285k miles was a very good run! Can't be too mad at it if it lasted that long. Seems pretty expensive for a RWD car, but I looked it up and it's like the LS400, buried in the valley. Intake manifold and everything connected to it has to come off. LS460 has the starter near the bottom next to the block in the typical location, but just saw a Youtube vid on replacing it and it's surprisingly difficult. Exhaust manifold has to come off, and getting that off is quite a job as well. Looks like it would be a very expensive job.

That is the EPA regulation. Must default to the method used in the testing or better.

Right, there's talk about reversing those regulations by eliminating the credits/incentives they get for implementing them, but still in flux from what I've read. Unlikely they'd spend any software developer time to make changes to existing US customer cars, so I won't hold out any hope of an update that remembers the setting.

My '83 Old Cutlass had 183,000. Did not start one day but the starter cranked it.

Surprisingly good run. Always heard malaise-era cars weren't any good, but that's a better run than the starters on my slightly newer GMs. I believe the 3 I've replaced went out in the low 100k mileage.

 

[srobak]

True. Maybe newer cars will be coded to remember the disabled state. It's too bad software updates like that don't typically trickle down to older models. I'd love to be able to set my car to Sport mode and have it remember it.

That is the EPA regulation. Must default to the method used in the testing or better.

Right, there's talk about reversing those regulations by eliminating the credits/incentives they get for implementing them, but still in flux from what I've read. Unlikely they'd spend any software developer time to make changes to existing US customer cars, so I won't hold out any hope of an update that remembers the setting.

I don't know if it is a remembered state vs. a default state. As I mentioned - up until the 26 model year the default state was "enabled" for all vehicles, I believe. For 26 the default is "disabled" (at least on some cars) and will remain that way until a new administration is in place with new EPA regulations & laws. This will change with the political winds from now on. Again - easy software change and the mfgs will be required to comply with the regulation changes. Also - my Palisade Calligraphy remembers last drive mode.

Sounds like you've never had the pleasure of owning a higher mileage FWD GM car from the late-80s and 90s. I've had 5, had to replace starters in 3. Granted, I've never had to replace a starter in anything else.

Oh man... make me shudder. 86 Grand Am 2.5L "Quad 4" (whatever the hell that is) with a 5 speed stick. 3 starters in 100k. Giant rust bucket rattle-trap of a car.... but other than the starter, premature brake wear, leaky valve cover and a front end that would go out of alignment if you looked at it too hard (not to mention CV boots that would tear on a near weekly basis) - was quite dependable as far as starting and going down the road.