Ford Taurus Limited AWD vs Toyota Avalon vs Hyundai Genesis 3.8

[sandy]

TJ - I usually agree with what you say but I think you are being a bit extreme here. What if you enjoy driving a new car every few years, don't enjoy the hassle of trade-in haggling, want to take advantage of special lease deals mfg's often offer, don't want to keep a car that is no longer under mfg warranty, want to avoid the costs of high mileage maintence services, want to pay sales tax only on the portion of the car you actually "rent"?

Also, at lease end you do have options. Buy the car, walk away, lease another car or buy your next car.

No doubt leasing is not for everyone, particularly if low cost over many years of ownership is the goal.

 

[TJPark01]

TJ - I usually agree with what you say but I think you are being a bit extreme here. What if you enjoy driving a new car every few years, don't enjoy the hassle of trade-in haggling, want to take advantage of special lease deals mfg's often offer, don't want to keep a car that is no longer under mfg warranty, want to avoid the costs of high mileage maintence services, want to pay sales tax only on the portion of the car you actually "rent"?

Also, at lease end you do have options. Buy the car, walk away, lease another car or buy your next car.

No doubt leasing is not for everyone, particularly if low cost over many years of ownership is the goal.

Purely from a long term monetary perspective leasing is not a good decision. But is 6 years really that long? Sure if you like the new car smell every 3 years, that's great, but you're paying a major premium to do it.

 

[sandy]

Purely from a long term monetary perspective leasing is not a good decision. But is 6 years really that long? Sure if you like the new car smell every 3 years, that's great, but you're paying a major premium to do it.

Hmmmm. Is 6 years a long time? Good question. Guess it depends on how long you have left. I have friends who no longer buy green bananas.

 

[jkohn]

HA! Thats funny! I never thought that many people actually leased cars...I mean what ever happened to an ROI (return on investment)??

Well your first mistake is assuming there's an ROI on a car. Car purchases are not investments, especially when purchased new (regardless of whether you finance or lease). Name one other "investment" that depreciates 50 percent or more in the first 3 years...

As to why lease as opposed to financing. I think an argument could be made that if you plan to always carry a payment, leasing can be an attractive option if you don't drive too many miles. You can get a more expensive vehicle for a given payment, which is what I think really attracts people, especially when they don't currently have a trade-in or money for down payment.

If you're going to actually pay the vehicle off and then continue to drive it, financing make sense. If you're going to get a new car every 3-4 years anyway, leasing has some advantages. It's true you have no trade-in value at the end of a lease, but sometimes that's also true with financed vehicles for various reasons (and at 3 years there's a good chance you're still upside down on a financed vehicle).

The main downside to leasing is what TJ points out, it's a cycle that's hard to break out of once you start, since moving from a lease to a financed vehicle will typically require "downgrading" to a less expensive vehicle, something people usually don't want to do. Part of the reason I stopped leasing is because the Genesis was such a good value that it allowed me to break that cycle without downgrading.

I leased two Infiniti's before getting the Genesis. My only real regret with the leases is that when the lease is up you pretty much have to get something new (or buy the leased vehicle). I wouldn't have minded keeping my last G35 for another year or two.

 

[TJPark01]

Well your first mistake is assuming there's an ROI on a car. Car purchases are not investments, especially when purchased new (regardless of whether you finance or lease). Name one other "investment" that depreciates 50 percent or more in the first 3 years...

As to why lease as opposed to financing. I think an argument could be made that if you plan to always carry a payment, leasing can be an attractive option if you don't drive too many miles. You can get a more expensive vehicle for a given payment, which is what I think really attracts people, especially when they don't currently have a trade-in or money for down payment.

If you're going to actually pay the vehicle off and then continue to drive it, financing make sense. If you're going to get a new car every 3-4 years anyway, leasing has some advantages. It's true you have no trade-in value at the end of a lease, but sometimes that's also true with financed vehicles for various reasons (and at 3 years there's a good chance you're still upside down on a financed vehicle).

The main downside to leasing is what TJ points out, it's a cycle that's hard to break out of once you start, since moving from a lease to a financed vehicle will typically require "downgrading" to a less expensive vehicle, something people usually don't want to do. Part of the reason I stopped leasing is because the Genesis was such a good value that it allowed me to break that cycle without downgrading.

Very good points here. Leasing versus buying is not black or white. It really depends on your situation. One thing I will say about buying or financing a car is:
If you finance a vehicle and continue to drive it once it's paid off. The money you would be spending on car payments can be allocated towards other things, so there is an opportunity cost to leasing a vehicle for personal use.

 

[sandy]

Very good points here. Leasing versus buying is not black or white. It really depends on your situation. One thing I will say about buying or financing a car is:
If you finance a vehicle and continue to drive it once it's paid off. The money you would be spending on car payments can be allocated towards other things, so there is an opportunity cost to leasing a vehicle for personal use.

Much the same could be said for buying a less expensive car and using the savings for other things. As in much of life, everything is a trade-off.

 

[PINGGOLF]

Well your first mistake is assuming there's an ROI on a car. Car purchases are not investments, especially when purchased new (regardless of whether you finance or lease). Name one other "investment" that depreciates 50 percent or more in the first 3 years...

Boats -- more like 70%
ATV/Motorcycles -- probably 60%
Computers -- outdated the day they are purchased.

When I mentioned a "ROI" I failed to mention that it is not necessarily "money." When you lease...you turn it in...or have the option to buy at a ridiculous price (from what I have been told). In essence, you have GAINED nothing...zip...nada...zero. However, when you finance or pay cash in the end...you have a CAR in your driveway.

As to why lease as opposed to financing. I think an argument could be made that if you plan to always carry a payment, leasing can be an attractive option if you don't drive too many miles. You can get a more expensive vehicle for a given payment, which is what I think really attracts people, especially when they don't currently have a trade-in or money for down payment.

True...but in all honesty, I have never seen an option to lease a car with NO money down...but I havent been looking that hard either.

If you're going to actually pay the vehicle off and then continue to drive it, financing make sense. If you're going to get a new car every 3-4 years anyway, leasing has some advantages. It's true you have no trade-in value at the end of a lease, but sometimes that's also true with financed vehicles for various reasons (and at 3 years there's a good chance you're still upside down on a financed vehicle).

True...but if you shop smartly and buy wisely with the same money you put down on a lease...you can put down on a finance and in essence, walk away with equity in a car. For instance, my car was worth $42,100. I talked them down to nearly $39K which is almost $3K to begin with. I then put a HEFTY down payment on the car and financed the rest. The car will be paid off next November. Currently on KBB.com my Genesis is worth at a SUGGESTED RETAIL VALUE OF $41,070 with 24K miles. Dont believe me, check out http://www.kbb.com/used-cars/hyundai/genesis/2009/retail-value/pricing-report?id=237136&category=sedan&equipment=2802373|true|2428885|true|2428887|true|2428890|true|2428892|true|2428899|true|2428900|true|2428903|true&condition=excellent&mileage=24500#survey

The main downside to leasing is what TJ points out, it's a cycle that's hard to break out of once you start, since moving from a lease to a financed vehicle will typically require "downgrading" to a less expensive vehicle, something people usually don't want to do. Part of the reason I stopped leasing is because the Genesis was such a good value that it allowed me to break that cycle without downgrading.

Thats WONDERFUL!!!

Anywho, sorry to hijack the thread!

I guess we need to stay on topic!

If any body wishes to start a thread on LEASING VS. FINANCING...be my guest.

 

[ilovemygenesis]

TJ - I usually agree with what you say but I think you are being a bit extreme here. What if you enjoy driving a new car every few years, don't enjoy the hassle of trade-in haggling, want to take advantage of special lease deals mfg's often offer, don't want to keep a car that is no longer under mfg warranty, want to avoid the costs of high mileage maintence services, want to pay sales tax only on the portion of the car you actually "rent"?

Also, at lease end you do have options. Buy the car, walk away, lease another car or buy your next car.

No doubt leasing is not for everyone, particularly if low cost over many years of ownership is the goal.

Also you don't have to go through the hassle of selling the car afterwards, there are pros and cons to both. The cons to buying is evident if you owned Toyotas, the value of the cars went down considerably since the recalls and lawsuits, which means if you bought your toyota a few years ago the value is dramatically less then what you expected it to be. So, if you were looking to sell your car now - forget it. People i know are not going near them. So if you had leased your Toyota car a few years ago and you're now coming off lease your residual value would likely be higher then the car is really worth so you'd be happy to walk away. Now i agree, with a lease you are renting the car and have nothing to show for it, but why would you want to pay all that money for a depreciating asset. Cars don't appreciate with value unless you put money into it, so why would you spend all that money on financing a car just to get 'some money back'. If the lease restrictions works out for my needs i would prefer to lease then finance, jmho, but to each his/her own.

 

[ilovemygenesis]

I then put a HEFTY down payment on the car and financed the rest.


Now, another factor you have to look at is cash flow, I'm not questioning your reasoning or criticizing you at all, all I'm saying is now you don't have use of that cash. That cash could have been used to invest, earn interest in a CD etc. If you didn't have a need for the cash for the next 5-7 years or however long you plan to have the car then so be it. Otherwise if you did have a need for the cash it is tied up in the car. With leasing you have a steady stream of cash outflow as opposed to (if you put a big down payment) a large upfront cash outflow with no guarantee of getting it back. Now like i said there pros and cons to each method, but i don't think it's fair to make blanket statements that generalize people who lease as showoffs who don't have any financial responsibility, that's not everyone's situation.

 

[PINGGOLF]

Now like i said there pros and cons to each method, but i don't think it's fair to make blanket statements that generalize people who lease as showoffs who don't have any financial responsibility, that's not everyone's situation.

You made some very good points! Thank you!

Your statement above caused me to re-read some of my earlier posts and with that, it was never my "intent" for that statement to "blanket" all those who lease vehicles. I should have explained my comment in further detail instead of typing off the cuff. No offense was taken "ilovemygenesis."

My reason for that comment was that when my wife was in school in Birmingham, AL we temporarily lived in some apartments that run $500 to $1500 month to rent. They were segregated by the lower priced housing near the bottom of the hill and the higher priced housing twards the top of the hill. After living there for 3 years we became friends with several individuals and learned a lot about their living environment. I knew of 4 couples with children who forked out $500+ for their apartment and had a car payment nearly double that for their Merc's and Beamers. They are covered under MEDICAID (which is funded my you and I) and their children are on reduced lunches at school. Now, do we see a priority issue here? Certainly we do! This was the reason for my statement earlier.

Now, in comparison, my next door neighbor. They lease 2 cars and get new ones every 3 years. When I asked why they leased they said because they want a new car...often. Which is awesome...and they can afford it. They said the only reason they wished they hadnt was the milage and the final inspection. They always go over their mileage agreements...which costs even more and during the final inspection any ding, nick or scuff costs them extra. These are words right out of their mouth last night as we were watering our plants.

Here is my final thought as I have hijacked this thread long enough...if you are comfortable and able to afford dishing out the dough to "rent" a car and in return...gain nothing; go for it! (There are pros and cons to each) Who am I to tell you what you should or should not do?? I have simply stated my opinions based on a "common sense" approach to things. Common sense has always told me that if you are going to put money towards something you had better be getting something in return.

To all, I apologize if I stepped on your toes because you lease a vehicle. We all have a different walk in life and I was raised in a way that leasing was a no-no. I tried to lease my first car and daddy put an end to that quickly! HA!

______________________________

Help support this site so it can continue supporting you!

 

[ilovemygenesis]

You made some very good points! Thank you!

Your statement above caused me to re-read some of my earlier posts and with that, it was never my "intent" for that statement to "blanket" all those who lease vehicles. I should have explained my comment in further detail instead of typing off the cuff. No offense was taken "ilovemygenesis."

My reason for that comment was that when my wife was in school in Birmingham, AL we temporarily lived in some apartments that run $500 to $1500 month to rent. They were segregated by the lower priced housing near the bottom of the hill and the higher priced housing twards the top of the hill. After living there for 3 years we became friends with several individuals and learned a lot about their living environment. I knew of 4 couples with children who forked out $500+ for their apartment and had a car payment nearly double that for their Merc's and Beamers. They are covered under MEDICAID (which is funded my you and I) and their children are on reduced lunches at school. Now, do we see a priority issue here? Certainly we do! This was the reason for my statement earlier.

Now, in comparison, my next door neighbor. They lease 2 cars and get new ones every 3 years. When I asked why they leased they said because they want a new car...often. Which is awesome...and they can afford it. They said the only reason they wished they hadnt was the milage and the final inspection. They always go over their mileage agreements...which costs even more and during the final inspection any ding, nick or scuff costs them extra. These are words right out of their mouth last night as we were watering our plants.

Here is my final thought as I have hijacked this thread long enough...if you are comfortable and able to afford dishing out the dough to "rent" a car and in return...gain nothing; go for it! (There are pros and cons to each) Who am I to tell you what you should or should not do?? I have simply stated my opinions based on a "common sense" approach to things. Common sense has always told me that if you are going to put money towards something you had better be getting something in return.

To all, I apologize if I stepped on your toes because you lease a vehicle. We all have a different walk in life and I was raised in a way that leasing was a no-no. I tried to lease my first car and daddy put an end to that quickly! HA!

non taken, thanks for the explanation, now back to the thread...Genesis rules,lol

 

[ilovemygenesis]

Avalons,ES350,Chrysler C300, Caddy CTS, are the price competitors, but the engineering benchmarks and performance numbers are in line with InfinitM, Acura TL, Lexus GS, Mercedes E, BMW 5. That is why it's such a compelling argument and value.

Full Article

I agree - the car is placed perfectly in between both segments in my view. For those who are looking at the Chryslers, Buick Lacrosse, the Caddy's, they see the Genesis as a step up from those cars worth the slight increase in cash. For those in the Lexus GS, Infinity M, Acura 3.5RL they see those cars as over priced and see the Genesis as a less expensive better choice. I do not agree that the Genesis is aligned with or in competition with the E-Class, Audi's, or 5 series. Their prestige is what carries their brand and no amount of standard features will persuade those owners to buy them. That's why i'm so concerned with the Equus venture, buyers in those price points will have a hard time purchasing a car with the kind of reputation of Hyundai even if you cloak it under a different name. They should have waited for a few years after the Genesis makes more of a stake in the luxury market before they released the Equus. IMO, the best comparison for the Genesis is with the overpriced infiniti's, Acura RL, and Lexus GS, those are the consumers the Genesis should reach out to because the Genesis is by far is a better vehicle value then those brands offer. I still get a kick out of driving on the road and watching an Infiniti owner coming up next to me checking out my car and cursing how he paid 10-15K more for his.

 

[ajls09873]

Genesis is not in same league with Avalon and Taurus.
Why they ignoring Hyundai Azera?

This is reason that hyundai should have seperated luxury channel. (such as Lexus and Lincoln)

 

[RLREILLY81]

Genesis is not in same league with Avalon and Taurus.
Why they ignoring Hyundai Azera?

This is reason that hyundai should have seperated luxury channel. (such as Lexus and Lincoln)

While I agree with you about ignoring the Hyundai Azera... why does Hyundai have the Azera at all anyway?

Consider there list of cars...
Accent (Economy)
Elantra (Economy)
Sonata (Family)
Azera(Family)
Genesis (Family - do to price/ Luxury- do to features)
Equus (Luxury)

IMO this is just far too many cars. Drop the Azera totally for the simple fact that you can get a high end Sonata ($28k) or low end Genesis ($33k) for about the same costs that the Azera falls into ($25-$30k). Realistically Hyundai's is pricing the Azera out of the market with their own products. But like I said its just IMO.

 

[TJPark01]

While I agree with you about ignoring the Hyundai Azera... why does Hyundai have the Azera at all anyway?

I ask myself the same question when it comes to the Avalon. Why does this car exist? Since the Camry V6 or the ES350, are similar, they seem to be making too many cars. The Avalon and Azera both seem to get lost in the shuffle. They must know something we dont.

 

[RLREILLY81]

The Avalon and Azera both seem to get lost in the shuffle. They must know something we dont.

I couldn't agree more. My mother had a 98 Avalon, which at the time was actually the exact same engine and style as the low end Lexus of that year. When I asked her why she just didn't get the Lexus her comment was, "Why do I need to spend the $6,000 more for the exact same car?" To her, "the exact same car" meant the ability of the car to last over the long run not anything else. And sure as $h!t we just got rid of that car this year with over 145k miles on it. I guess there is a market for people who look at things that way. Probably the same reason I got the very base level Genny... I didn't NEED (not want) the extra hp or the gas to fill it up, nor did I need all the extra bells and whistles because I felt that she came with enough for me at the base.

With all that said... get rid of the Azera... just clogging up sales for the Genesis and Sonata!

 

[tjc78]

With all that said... get rid of the Azera... just clogging up sales for the Genesis and Sonata!

Why? Better to steal a few sales from your own lineup than to give that sale to another company. A consumer might not want the RWD Genesis and the Sonata may be too small, etc.

 

[TNTitan]

...
With all that said... get rid of the Azera... just clogging up sales for the Genesis and Sonata!

I would bet thats the plan. Looking at sales figures from 2008-2010. Azera buyers have clearly moved to the Genesis.

source: http://www.hyundai-blog.com

 

[Hghwy52]

Here are some reasons why it might make sense to keep the Azera:

-It is being redesigned and might be more desirable than the old model.
-It is a pretty good seller in other markets and won't cost much to offer it here.
-Since the Sonata does not have a V6 option, it may be attractive to Sonata buyers who want a V6 and may compete with Camery and Accord V6's as well as Avalon and Maxima.
-If Hyundai is serious about making Genesis/Equus a separate/sub brand, it will serve as Hyundai's flagship and allow the genesis to move more upmarket where it belongs.

But if sales of the Azera stay as dismal as they are now, i agree that there's not much sense in keeping it.

 

[Pahaska]

Having owned a Sonata and then an Azera, I feel that the Azera was a definite step up regardless of price overlap. It was roomier, more stable on the road, and had a touch of luxury that my high-end Sonata did not have. I found little to fault with the Azera except a bit of porposing on occasional big surface irregularities at speed. It actually cornered at a bit higher speed than the Sonata.

It was my 2+ years with the Azera that made me make the final step up to the Genesis.