Genesis as family car

[Michael_S]

I don't know if this discussion would interest anyone, but I would be looking at the Genesis as a family vehicle.

My criteria would be, from most important to least important: space, crash safety and crash avoidance, comfort, economy, reliability, sportiness.

On a large scale, I'm excited that any automaker is investing in large sedans, so in that respect I want Hyundai to succeed and make the Genesis a success. But I personally benefit if the Genesis becomes an excellent sedan that is undervalued, because then I can get a used one at an low price when I need a new vehicle in four or five years.

The official specifications from Hyundai place the cabin space at 109 cubic feet. Cubic feet as a measure of cabin space and comfort is inexact, the seats could have poor back support or be too low and lack thigh support, and so forth. But for comparison, the Toyota Avalon, Hyundai Azera, Chevy Impala, Ford Taurus, Cadillac CTS, Infiniti M35, and most other sedans anywhere near the Genesis in price have less than 109 cubic feet of cabin space. Only the Ford Crown Victoria and Buick Lucerne and their respective corporate cousins outdo the Genesis on cabin space, and neither has a perfect IIHS side impact crash rating (which the Genesis may obtain).

Is anyone else considering the Genesis mainly as a family sedan?

 

[Sal Collaziano]

I think many people will consider the Genesis as a family sedan. How much bigger is the Crown Victoria (Grand Marquis, Town Car) and Lucerne? The Genesis is going to be far more luxurious than these cars - so it will have that as an advantage..

I'm happy to see a new full size sedan as well. So I do hope Hyundai does well here. We could use some inexpensive competition. Plus, I'd like to see something a little bigger in the near future...

 

[Michael_S]

I usually use Yahoo Autos for research
http://autos.yahoo.com/ford_crown_victoria_standard-specs/?p=cap
The Ford Crown Victoria is listed at 111.2 cubic feet of cabin space.

But the Crown Victoria is 212 inches long and 77.3 inches wide, which means the cabin space isn't that impressive considering its size.

The Lucerne is actually 108 cubic feet, so the Genesis outdoes it on cabin space.

The Cadillac DTS, as far as I can tell, is the most spacious sedan on the road unless you count stuff like Maybach and Rolls Royce models. http://autos.yahoo.com/cadillac_dts_v8-specs/?p=cap 115.3 cubic feet, 207.6 inches long, 74.8 inches wide.

Just to round out the numbers:
Mercedes S class 109.4 (just like the Genesis)
http://autos.yahoo.com/mercedes_benz_s_class_s550-specs/?p=cap
BMW 7-series long wheelbase 111.0
http://autos.yahoo.com/bmw_7_series_750li_sedan-specs/?p=cap
Lexus LS460 long wheelbase isn't listed (it says 103 cubic feet, but the short wheelbase LS460 is 103, so that can't be accurate).
Maybach 57 112.0
http://autos.yahoo.com/maybach_57_sedan-specs/?p=cap

[EDIT] I forgot the Audi A8 long wheelbase, 106.8 cubic feet.

 

[Sal Collaziano]

I think the Town Car has 116 - or did I read that wrong? It seems that the Genesis has plenty of interior room. Though I wouldn't mind it being a bit wider like the Town Car. I think the new, larger sedan (which we haven't seen yet) is going to have Bentley proportions...

 

[GrandPrix08]

As Korean, I do wish they do well, but the challenges they will be facing is the first year sale, as are with most other new cars, which I don't think they will succeed in its first year in terms of sales. It needs some much needed track record to see if the car lasts for the long runs. Also, I don't think any new car in its first year is a success to begin with. Making it worse is that, it's the very first luxury intended vehicle comming from Hyundai, the company that many people still consider as nothing more than a cheap alternative to the big boys that was once synonymous for an easily breakable, appliance garbabes that don't last.

Sure, the perception has changed over the years, but Hyundai still has a way to go. They are simply not there yet. They should keep improving their cars for the long run to improve their re-sale values first, and for that respect, and as I have said number of times, it's a risky move they have taken with the Genesis. I strongly feel they should have tried other markets first. Such as other part of Asia, or South American markets first in order to see and correct any mistakes or errors they have made BEFORE bring it to the strict North American market. It's just TOO EARLY for them to thinking about luxury market in North America. Sure it will sell, but I doubt it will sell on the target number of units they may set, since the loyal European luxury car buyers and American luxury car buyers will probably just laugh about it and it won't sway them OFF of their favorite brand into cross-shopping Hyundai. Their loyalty is just that strong. It may win some Japanese near-luxury car buyers such as Honda Accord, or Toyota Avalon buyers and some Korean buyers who will buy it out of the pride, but I think that will be it.

In terms of space, according to the video that's out of the Korean spec Genesis, the reviewer saids the seats are mounted TOO HIGH, so I guess the position of the seats don't play a role in the interior room I think, at least for the Genesis.

 

[Sal Collaziano]

I don't expect anyone to switch from BMW, Mercedes or Lexus to Hyundai. I doubt that'll happen enough to even be a statistic. But, it'll get people thinking. The Genesis will steal sales from Toyota, Honda and Nissan without a doubt. Maybe after a few years of the Genesis, if it succeeds, people will start toying with the idea of moving away from the expensive German luxury sedans. Mainly retirees who like the excellent warranty...

 

[Michael_S]

They should keep improving their cars for the long run to improve their re-sale values first,

One of the worst things an automaker can do for resale value is sell a high volume of their vehicles to fleets. That's the mistake that was killing the resale value for Ford, Chrysler, and General Motors. Ford and General Motors have cut back their fleet sales substantially, and that may help resale value in a few years once there isn't a dozen used Impalas or Focuses on every used car lot across the country.

Hyundai and Kia have been doing a lot of fleet sales recently. I think their products are getting much better, but they're picking up the volume of fleet sales that General Motors and Ford have dropped, and I think that's going to hurt them in the long run.

 

[Sal Collaziano]

One of the worst things an automaker can do for resale value is sell a high volume of their vehicles to fleets. That's the mistake that was killing the resale value for Ford, Chrysler, and General Motors. Ford and General Motors have cut back their fleet sales substantially, and that may help resale value in a few years once there isn't a dozen used Impalas or Focuses on every used car lot across the country.

Hyundai and Kia have been doing a lot of fleet sales recently. I think their products are getting much better, but they're picking up the volume of fleet sales that General Motors and Ford have dropped, and I think that's going to hurt them in the long run.

Good point.. I guess their sales numbers have gone up because of those fleet sales. So we're seeing more Hyundais on the road - but resale value is going to get worse.. It's very difficult to predict Hyundai's future. I think the new Sonata (with the new interior not out yet) is going to sell a lot - as well as the Genesis. I think they should leave these vehicles out of rental fleets.. Leave that for the smaller cars, I guess. Because the smaller cars aren't where Hyundai's future is at (in my opinion).

 

[EdVoylesHyundai]

In terms of space, according to the video that's out of the Korean spec Genesis, the reviewer saids the seats are mounted TOO HIGH, so I guess the position of the seats don't play a role in the interior room I think, at least for the Genesis.

Don't forget that the American car will be very different from the Korean version, according to Hyundai. I suspect the seat position will be one of those things that is different b/c of the different height of the "average" person in America vs. Korea. Plus, I would think that Hyundai would want to build in enough adjustability to allow some professional athletes to drive them. Don't laugh. It won't be long before you see a Genesis on diamond coated 22's with a jersey number tinted into the back window.

 

[Sal Collaziano]

It won't be long before you see a Genesis on diamond coated 22's with a jersey number tinted into the back window.

If Hyundai were smart, they'd pay someone popular in sports millions of dollars to simply to just that. It would be the best marketing they've ever done for themselves.

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[EdVoylesHyundai]

Good point.. I guess their sales numbers have gone up because of those fleet sales. So we're seeing more Hyundais on the road - but resale value is going to get worse...

You are right about their fleet sales increasing their numbers, in more ways than one. One of the biggest hurdles that Hyundai faces is just getting people to drive one. Many people still make a face when you suggest that they consider a Hyundai for their next vehicle. Those are the people who haven't driven one lately. I talk to people every week in the showroom who say, "I would have never even considered a Hyundai, but I rented one on (vacation, business trip, etc...) and I loved it." And now they are here actually considering buying one. As long as they don't whore themselves out to the rental companies like GM and Ford have done, I think they will be ok.

 

[Sal Collaziano]

You are right about their fleet sales increasing their numbers, in more ways than one. One of the biggest hurdles that Hyundai faces is just getting people to drive one. Many people still make a face when you suggest that they consider a Hyundai for their next vehicle. Those are the people who haven't driven one lately. I talk to people every week in the showroom who say, "I would have never even considered a Hyundai, but I rented one on (vacation, business trip, etc...) and I loved it." And now they are here actually considering buying one. As long as they don't whore themselves out to the rental companies like GM and Ford have done, I think they will be ok.

Agreed.. For Hyundai, it's a very good thing to make themselves available...

 

[Michael_S]

I talk to people every week in the showroom who say, "I would have never even considered a Hyundai, but I rented one on (vacation, business trip, etc...) and I loved it." And now they are here actually considering buying one.

My personal experience does not make for a grand statistical proof of anything. But what I've seen does back up what you say. I only know one person who was singularly unimpressed with every Hyundai they've driven, and I think the fellow expected too much. The other people I know who have owned or rented one were all very pleased with them.

I like some decent handling in my cars as long as ride comfort is not too poor, and top notch crash scores. The Azera gets the second best rating in the IIHS side impact crash test, and is not well rated for handling. I'm hoping the Genesis or the next Azera remedy those problems, and then I would seriously consider one.

 

[gentau]

If Hyundai were smart, they'd pay someone popular in sports millions of dollars to simply to just that. It would be the best marketing they've ever done for themselves.

Or...they could build me a Tau V8 with a twin screw supercharger; and I could campaign it on the drag strips for them.

 

[Michael_S]

Or...they could build me a Tau V8 with a twin screw supercharger; and I could campaign it on the drag strips for them.

I'm just curious, is there any reason you prefer a supercharger to a turbocharger?

 

[Genesis X]

I'm just curious, is there any reason you prefer a supercharger to a turbocharger?

My guess would be instant boost compared to turbo lag.

 

[gipp]

I don't expect anyone to switch from BMW, Mercedes or Lexus to Hyundai. I doubt that'll happen enough to even be a statistic. But, it'll get people thinking. The Genesis will steal sales from Toyota, Honda and Nissan without a doubt. Maybe after a few years of the Genesis, if it succeeds, people will start toying with the idea of moving away from the expensive German luxury sedans. Mainly retirees who like the excellent warranty...

I currently own a MB 400E, Lexus RX300, Acura RSX and Suzuki Gran Vitara. I learned from the Gran Vitara that $ paid does not equate to quality. The Vitara has been great and trouble free with over 65000 miles.

I intend to replace the V8 MB400E with the Genesis. Why would I pay MSRP $68730 for a comparable MB550?
- Quality? Sorry, Hyundai quality is currently much better than MB.
- Warranty? Nope, same story.
- Safety? MB has great reputation here but so does Hyundai and the
Genesis has all the latest safety technology.
- Design-Genesis is subjectively better looking than the 550E.
- Ride? For me that is THE question.
- Resale? TBD but only Lexus really shines here. Hyundai higher than US
brand cars.
- Prestige? Full size Luxury car buyers typically are a bit older and obviously have had enough success to play in this league. They probably got there by making logical vs. emotional decisions. I will be driving the car and not the neighbor or some guy I will never meet. The people I know and want to impress will be impressed once they get in the car. They know I've always had Mercedes and Lexus before. They will be impressed that I know value. People with money have it because they do not waste it unncessarily.

This whole arguement about needing a prestige brand name heritage is lame. It was used by the auto industry and magazines prior to the Acura launch. It reached fever pitch with the Lexus launch and lingered for a few years with the underwhelming response to the Infiniti Q45. Marque luxury brands such as Jaguar have proven a name means nothing if the cars stink. Infiniti has redefined itself with high quality cars that bundle extravegant luxury, near German handling and competitive pricing. I have to believe that Hyundai has benchmarked Infiniti and Lexus and has learned this lesson. Compare the M45 interior to the Genesis.

VW failed with the Phaeton because they came in at the same price point and actually higher than some compeittion. The Taureg suffers some of this to this day. But are the original Phaeton owners diapointed that they were early adpators? I would say not. You do not see many for sale and the price points have held reasonably well.

Another characteristic of the luxury car buyer is that many are entreprenuers that do not want to have the same car as everybody else. The "prestige " comes from having a unique car. A v8 Genesis fits the mold. They are sick of everyone having a MB or BMW now.

I think that once again the so called "experts" will have to eat crow just as they did after the market learned the Lexus LS was a great car, the Acura Legend was a great car. Who ever predicted a Cadillac Escaldade would become such a hit?

It will all come down to how the Genesis drives...

 

[Sal Collaziano]

Great post, gipp! I agree with almost everything you wrote.. When you mentioned the Mercedes E-Class - were you considering the new style? I've seen some spyshots and it's looking REALLY nice.. Then again, as you mentioned, everybody has one (or will).

I also thought the Volkswagen Phaeton was selling very inexpensively on eBay shortly after the came to be. I think you can get one in really nice condition for $30k a couple of years ago. For what that car is, that's an amazing price...

Otherwise, I entirely agree with everything you said.. Do you have any journalism in your blood?

 

[GrandPrix08]

Great post, I enjoyed reading it. Well, I haven't really expected a German car buyer to cross shop a Hyundai. Well, I am not saying there won't be any, but I still think it won't be easy to sway most if not all, the European luxury car buyers to leave their favorite brand into buying a Hyundai. At least not yet. Maybe some of the Japanese luxury car buyers will steal their sales a bit, but I don't think the European car buyers will be easily amazed by this new Hyundai that is pretty much un-proven, and lacks any track record yet sells for much higher price than any of their current line-up. Hyundai still has a job to do. To work their way to change public perception 180 degrees. Sure some percentage have been improved, but they still needs some work to be done to change most of the American car buyers who turned their back on them so long ago who still thinks in lines like 'Well, it's still a Hyundai', or, 'Hyundai's still s***', 'Very nice car', followining immediately with 'For a Hyundai that is', or somewhere along that line. When they become something like 'Wow, nice Hyundai you got there, I want one', or 'You must be doing quite well, Nice ride' and if no-one puts the word 'CHEAP' in conjunction afterwords, then they can market pretty much any car they want.

Another thing is, I know I've mentioned it before, is their logo. The flying H logo they are using now have experienced all kinds of histories that made them synonymous for an easily breakable, cheap, appliance cars that give you what you pay for, nothing else. They need to come out with more elegant, image changing new logo, not just for the Genesis, but for their other lines as well.

Also, they seriously need to consider doing what Toyota/Honda/Nissan did. CREATE a NEW LUXURY DIVISION. Though it MAY cost them a LOT of money and it's first year sales, you can pretty much forget about it, but in order to gain reputation as higher end luxury car make, they need to be adventuresome and take some risk. Build the new luxury brand, work on the red-carpet service that is synonomous(sp?) with the prestige brands, and spend some money so they get noticed. If they want success, that's what I think they should do, since today, Hyundai name is a BIG downside of selling any higher priced cars. If you searched for the Genesis vids on youtube, you will easily find comments like that, saying something like 'The Hyundai name and logo ruins it'.

 

[gipp]

You may be suprised at current Phateon prices- ie. the 2006 V8s with low miles seem to go at $44-$47,000 range while the average 2004 V8s are in the $28-30,000 range. Yes, you can find high mileage, and/or poor condtion in the low $20,000s but who in thier right mind(besides VW collector)would pay more for a used Phaeton vs. a brand new Genesis?
Again, I think this bodes well for the resale of a V8 Genesis in years to come.