Genesis Confusion

[jimb100]

The professional reviews I've read compare the Genesis 5.0 Ultimate to mid sized luxury cars like the E Class, Audi A6, Lexus GS and, sometimes, the Cadillac CTS. Of course, the Hyundai is $20k cheaper when comparably equipped.

But if you do side by side comparisons of sizes and equipment, these aren't the Genesis competitors.

Go to any of the big auto sites, like KBB, that let you run detailed comparisons and the Genesis compares to the Audi A8, S Class, BMW 7 series, Lexus 460, and the Genesis is more like them. Interior room, engine (even comparing mpg) trunk space, tires and wheels, front seat room, rear seat room, technology, etc.

Having looked at these cars on the showroom floor, at least, fit and finish of the Genesis doesn't seem inferior. Quality of materials is a little better in the more expensive cars but I suspect that the driving experience is not as different as when comparing to the sportier mid size luxury cars.

These cars are $50k more than the Genesis. Yes, the Audi has Quattro and the S class has even more technology but a Lexus 460 isn't much of a stretch and none seem $50k better.

Here, I think, is Hyundai's real dilemma. It seems ridiculous to market against these top tier players at half the cost. The people who buy the 5 series BMW are a tough sell and the Lexus GS is a different car.

So who's the target market for the Genesis? Just us bargain hunters? Are there enough of us to move the Genesis 5.0 from 53% residual on the lease chart to 58%? I want better resale value. Or did Hyundai just make a "tweener"?

 

[Mark_888]

Target market is a tricky subject. One can compare a sedan several different ways, such as:

• similar size, degree of luxury, and features
• similar cost

The other complication is that MB and BMW have been heavily discounting their vehicles in the USA recently, and some members on this forum have reported that discounts of $10K off MSRP is possible for these German cars. Given the higher resale values of MB and BMW, it is harder to say which cars are competitive.

Also, some buyers of luxury cars are mainly buying status, and even if Genesis has a lot more features for the money, many people who see them driving the car don't know about all the electronic gadgets and options the car has, they only know whether someone is driving a Hyundai or a MB/BMW.

 

[quanva]

well me personally, I was looking for value for the money..I could care less about the badge but i'm like that with other things as well..nor did i want to have a vehicle that I would see everywhere..I think the vehicle is just about where it needs to be to compete with BMW,lexus..etc.. now hyundai needs to figure out the dealer issue (either make a sub brand, or provide some type of dealer/service experience for genesis buyers that equals what the big are..

 

[faaiz66]

Also, some buyers of luxury cars are mainly buying status, and even if Genesis has a lot more features for the money, many people who see them driving the car don't know about all the electronic gadgets and options the car has, they only know whether someone is driving a Hyundai or a MB/BMW.

It's funny you should mention that. I've had people come up to me and ask me which Aston Martin model is my Genesis (since the badging is quite similar). I do feel embarassed telling them it's a Premium Hyundai, but then the looks of disbelief when they see how beautiful the exterior and interior looks for a Hyundai makes me proud to be driving this beautiful work of Korean art.

 

[Mark_888]

...now hyundai needs to figure out the dealer issue (either make a sub brand, or provide some type of dealer/service experience for genesis buyers that equals what the big are..

According to most experts that I have heard talk about this, having completely separate dealer network would raise the cost about $5K per unit. Selling a separate brand at existing dealerships is possible, but still hard for Hyundai Motor America to completely control exactly how dealers operate their business.

When HMA introduced Equus in the USA, only about 50% of dealers supposedly got to sell them, and dealers were supposed to build separate showroom space for the car, but I think they ended up fudging on that (I can't blame them, given the small number of Equus cars sold). I went to one dealer who built a separate showroom addition for the Equus (connected to existing showroom), but they ended up putting more than Equus vehicles in it.

 

[Mark_888]

well me personally, I was looking for value for the money..I could care less about the badge ...

Pretty much true of at least 90% of forum members, or we wouldn't be here.

 

[metrathon]

Target market is a tricky subject. One can compare a sedan several different ways, such as:

• similar size, degree of luxury, and features
• similar cost

The other complication is that MB and BMW have been heavily discounting their vehicles in the USA recently, and some members on this forum have reported that discounts of $10K off MSRP is possible for these German cars.

The discount you're talking is a super edge case scenario, it's not the norm. Or otherwise show me that 528i at $35k and I'll buy it right now

Usually BMW discount is 5% to 15% depending on the model, time of the year, demand and supply etc. For a $40k you can get a 6% discount. For a $80k you can get a 10% discount, etc.

The target market will end up being what Hyundai wants it to be, unless they grossly miscalculated it. The target market is shaped by the ads, the company message, the press, the testers, etc, and these all point at large size Germans (5, A6, E) & Lexus (GS). That's why I'm in the market for a Genny

 

[ksoze]

The discount you're talking is a super edge case scenario, it's not the norm.

It of course depends on region and timing, but MB E350's for instance are easily 8-10% off MSRP and BMW is also in that range. It does not equalize anything when compared to the Genesis, but the gap is less that it seems, which helps many justify the nameplate premium.

 

[metrathon]

It of course depends on region and timing, but MB E350's for instance are easily 8-10% off MSRP and BMW is also in that range. It does not equalize anything when compared to the Genesis, but the gap is less that it seems, which helps many justify the nameplate premium.

That's exactly in the middle of what I said, 5 - 15. I was just correcting the $10k discount being the norm. That's wishful thinking.

Personally I want to replace my A4 which is the worst rip-off car in the whole Audi portfolio (together with A3), just a re-badged Passat. But I'm waiting for the Genny hype to wear off so I can get a 10% discount on a 3.8 Ultimate. Not that the current price is not right for the offer, but I just can't pay MSRP

 

[YEH]

The professional reviews I've read compare the Genesis 5.0 Ultimate to mid sized luxury cars like the E Class, Audi A6, Lexus GS and, sometimes, the Cadillac CTS. Of course, the Hyundai is $20k cheaper when comparably equipped.

But if you do side by side comparisons of sizes and equipment, these aren't the Genesis competitors.

Go to any of the big auto sites, like KBB, that let you run detailed comparisons and the Genesis compares to the Audi A8, S Class, BMW 7 series, Lexus 460, and the Genesis is more like them. Interior room, engine (even comparing mpg) trunk space, tires and wheels, front seat room, rear seat room, technology, etc.

Hyundai's bang for the buck strategy does not include offering more tech, etc. at the same (or lower) price-point, but also offering more interior room than the norm for the various segments.

The Genesis offers more room than the norm for the midsize, luxury segment and so does the Equus for the full-size segment (the Equus being about as large as a LWB LS460).

Hyundai's upcoming compact sedan should follow the same formula; Infiniti did this w/ the G/Q50 and Cadillac with the previous CTS (tho Hyundai's compact will probably be smaller than the Q50).

Kia, otoh, has slotted the K900 in btwn the size of the Genesis and Equus and likely, if the GT concept goes into production, it will be smaller than the Genesis (as befitting Kia since they want to hit more of the sporty side of the luxury market).

So who's the target market for the Genesis? Just us bargain hunters? Are there enough of us to move the Genesis 5.0 from 53% residual on the lease chart to 58%? I want better resale value. Or did Hyundai just make a "tweener"?

Going to take 2 things.

1. More buyers purchasing the Genesis w/o the drastic discounts as for the 1G Genesis (going to be tough as everyone, including the Germans and Lexus are aggressively discounting these days);

2. More of the general populace getting used to the idea of non-luxury branded luxury models.

A 3rd thing is that more striking sheetmetal would help.

The current Optima saw a marked improvement in residual values over its predecessor due to the striking design (as well as overall improvement).

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[metrathon]

A 3rd thing is that more striking sheetmetal would help.

The current Optima saw a marked improvement in residual values over its predecessor due to the striking design (as well as overall improvement).

High rollers ($50k+ buyers) don't like flashy designs that expire the cool factor in 3 years. Just look at BMW and especially Audi design - same sausage, different size.

Personally I think 2nd generation Genesis nailed the design in a big way. I love it, it screams European, bold, expensive, and refined.

 

[quanva]

It's funny you should mention that. I've had people come up to me and ask me which Aston Martin model is my Genesis (since the badging is quite similar). I do feel embarassed telling them it's a Premium Hyundai, but then the looks of disbelief when they see how beautiful the exterior and interior looks for a Hyundai makes me proud to be driving this beautiful work of Korean art.

Had a neighbor come up to me the other night asking me which Maserati did I buy ..

 

[jimb100]

The target market is shaped by the ads, the company message, the press, the testers, etc, and these all point at large size Germans (5, A6, E) & Lexus (GS). That's why I'm in the market for a Genny

But these aren't the 'large size sedans.' The large are the 7 Series, A8, S Class, and LS 460.

 

[metrathon]

But these aren't the 'large size sedans.' The large are the 7 Series, A8, S Class, and LS 460.

Ok. Medium

 

[italiabrain]

On the size comments:
Yes the Genesis is bigger than average for the mid-size luxury market, but they still have to slot in the Equus in their market strategy. If they targeted the Genesis toward the full size competitors they would have to super-niche the Equus against the extended wheelbase versions (A8L, 750iL, etc.) or have the Genesis and Equus running over each other. Granted that does happen during this part of the product cycle, but systematically doing it via marketing would be a bad plan IMO.

As far as pricing and Germans having discounts:
I'm sure there are deals to be had on the Germans, but 10% isn't unheard of for the Genesis either. I got about 9% off retail in May without any inside info or connections.

 

[jimb100]

On the size comments:
Yes the Genesis is bigger than average for the mid-size luxury market, but they still have to slot in the Equus in their market strategy. If they targeted the Genesis toward the full size competitors they would have to super-niche the Equus against the extended wheelbase versions (A8L, 750iL, etc.) or have the Genesis and Equus running over each other. Granted that does happen during this part of the product cycle, but systematically doing it via marketing would be a bad plan IMO.

As far as pricing and Germans having discounts:
I'm sure there are deals to be had on the Germans, but 10% isn't unheard of for the Genesis either. I got about 9% off retail in May without any inside info or connections.

My guess is that the difference between the Genesis and the Equus make more sense in Korea than here.

Anyone know what the volumes for each are like?

 

[YEH]

High rollers ($50k+ buyers) don't like flashy designs that expire the cool factor in 3 years. Just look at BMW and especially Audi design - same sausage, different size.

Personally I think 2nd generation Genesis nailed the design in a big way. I love it, it screams European, bold, expensive, and refined.

A striking design doesn't have to mean garish or polarizing - see the Optima, which can command a $38k MSRP for a loaded SX-L trim (won't find a Sonata or Camry in that price range).

BMW designs lately have been uninspiring aside from the i8 and the Gran Coupe (which still needs a reworked front end).

The A7 did wonders for Audi in the higher priced luxury segment.

If Kia brings the GT concept to production (w/ a production front-end), can see it attaining conquest buys on just looks alone.

Same goes for the new Hyundai coupe if it retains much of the design of the HND-9 concept.

 

[jonjon72]

For the cost of the 5.0 Ultimate I could have easily purchased a BMW 3or 4 series, MB C or CLA or Audi A4. However, I find them too small/cramped. Plus they are a dime a dozen in the Toronto area. Add the insane long term maintenance costs and iffy quality compared to my excellent experience with my Genesis coupe and it was a no brainer. When Hyundai added the improved handling, AWD and tech I knew where my money was going. Zero regrets.

 

[parpi]

I was talking to a member of the genesis team at the dealership and he mentioned they will discontinue the genesis coupe in the next 2 years and it will be replaced by the luxury sports coupe. So less hardcore track car more luxury for next gen.

 

[BRJACKET]

I was watching one review and they kept coming back to comparing the new Genesis to the Lexus LS460 (not the long body). I think that is an interesting comparison. I am still in my 2007 LS460 so I have been able to compare the 2. I haven't driven the newer LS460 so I can't put that one into the equation. I did test drive a new GS350. Based on my experience and then doing some research I compare them as follows:

1. The Genesis falls into a nice place for roominess. It has a combined front & rear leg room of 80.7". The 2007 LS460 has 81.6" and so is not quite 1" bigger (not too bad). The GS350 has 79.1" (1-1/2" smaller than the Genesis) and it felt it. It is not a great car for 4 adults. I didn't drive one but the BMW 535i is only 77.5" so even smaller. The cargo area of the Genesis while smaller than the LS460 is bigger than the others by 1 cu. ft. So, the Genesis while looking the part of a midsize sport sedan is not too far off the 2007 LS460 in size.
2. The GS350 and the 535i handle the road better. I can also add the Audi A6 with Quattro here (I used to have one). They really grab the road and hold the curves. The 5.0 that I drove feels more like the LS460. In sport mode it does give a more stiff ride and is fun to drive but it feels more top heavy and not as good as the GS350 or Audi. Still it held it's way around a curving road way faster than the speed limit allowed and plenty good enough for me.
3. The finish of the Lexus is hard to beat. They are just amazing. However, the Genesis is not too far behind and I like it better than the Audi or BMW.
4. Lexus has great customer service. They are hard to beat there. Unfortunately, when you have to have something serviced, it is expensive (fortunately that is not too often). Audi loaners were not much to speak of (what ever the local rental lot had). The service people were nice but I had the car in so often that they all knew me by name. When the warranty ran out I immediately traded it in. I don't know about Hyundai yet. The dealer where I am going to purchase seems to be good and does provide loaners which I believe are also Genesis cars. I will also get the extended warranty so I should only have to spend money on tires, brakes, etc.
5. Value: The new LS460 is now well over $80,000.00. It is nice but I just won't spend that much on a car. I don't know the current price on BMW or Audi because I am too concerned about maintenance costs to own one. I will keep a car for 5 to 7 years so the cost to operate is important to me. As far as I can tell, the Genesis will be good for that. Lexus is excellent but again, I will not pay the price for a new LS460. I believe that the new Genesis will hold value better than the last one and that the cost of ownership will be far better for the Genesis. The GS350 will be close in value but the car is too small in my opinion.
6. MPG: This is the one thing that concerns me about the Genesis. I am used to 8 cylinder engines and have decided that I will be getting the 5.0 (personal preference). My LS460 gets about 15 mpg around town but is getting 30 mpg on the highway. I wish the 5.0 got better mileage. This is less an economic thing and more about hating to buy gas at such outrageous prices. Hopefully after a few years of break-in the Genesis will get better than 25 mpg.

So my conclusion is that the Genesis reminds me of Lexus when it first came out. They need to give value to develop the brand and so this is the time to take advantage. I look at the Genesis as more similar to the LS460 just a little smaller and sportier and a whole lot less expensive. To me, it represents the best value in the luxury market today. That is why I am looking to get one when I am ready to buy (hopefully in the next month).