Genesis's giving up on V8 development

[SuperKing]

That's odd because the germans are going back to straight 6's and the next Mazda 6 is supposed to be RWD with a straight 6. The Germans are doing it for cost reasons. When they were making V8's, it made sense to make a V6 alongside it. The engineers just had to add 2 more cylinders to a V6 for a V8 or even put two V6's together for a V12. Now, with 8's and 12's going away, the V6 doesn't make financial sense for any company that doesn't offer a V8. They can add 2 cylinders to a i4 for a straight 6. Simpler to engineer too with half the heads/cams.

 

[YEH]

None other than Klaus Frolich, the head of R&D at BMW, has stated that the business model for keeping the V8 has increasingly become difficult, esp. as BMW has an electrified I6 powertrain with enough power/torque to fry most transmissions.

In Europe, automakers will be hit with huge penalties if they don't get their fleet CO2 emissions under a certain level, and Korea and China have a mix of high displacement and emissions taxes.

So, V8s are a difficult sell in 3 out of the 4 biggest markets for larger/higher end lux vehicles.

That just leaves the US and there likely isn't enough volume from US sales to justify the cost, esp. as automakers have to spend heavily on an electrified lineup.

Wouldn't be surprised if the Germans don't invest any further in their V8s, beyond electrifying them to various degrees.

 

[MyCorvette]

There is a reason why some countries prefer EV more than ICE cars. For example China is an crude oil importing country and is heavily depending on buying oil from other countries. This is a serious risk since its "lifeline" is controlled by those oil exporting countries. Switching to EV can significantly relieve the country's reliance on oil.

For US I do not think crude oil is a big problem like in China, so V8 or higher should not be considered "unnecessary" in this market. For the current battery technology, EV is essentially similar to perishable food, it has limited shelf life and even you do not drive it at all and relentlessly maintain the battery, it will still degrade in a matter of years. However ICE does not have such "shelf life" attribute and therefore keeps value much better in the long run, especially for V8/V10/V12/W16 engines which are much rarer in the market nowadays.

At this moment, it is still considered by many people in the US market, that if a luxury brand cannot offer V8 engines in its product line, then it can only counted as 2nd or 3rd-tier brand at most.

 

[YEH]

^ China owns most of the oil sand fields in Canada and has acquired the rights to a lot of the oil being pumped in S. America; acquired these rights when these countries signed (favorable to the Chinese) development deals financed by Chinese banks.

While being less dependant on oil imports plays a role, the #1 reason China has turned to BEVs is due to trying to reduce the amount of pollution in the cities.

Another reason is that China sees BEVs as a way they can leapfrog the West ( and Korea and Japan) when it comes to the auto industry.

But it seems like China sees certain limits in the growth of the BEV sector as the person who speared BEV development in China has started to pivot to FCEVs.

Even the had of the SRT program has admitted that electrification is in the future of the Challenger and Charger (meaning a mix of ICE and battery power).

These days, an increasing # of buyers care more about the tech that is available (H/K/G's latest adaptive cruise and LKA driving system is better than Mercedes) rather than what's under the hood and something that is purely ICE is increasingly seen as being outdated.

The flagship segment increasingly is shrinking, and even if you add in sales of V8 powered flagship CUVs like the GLS, not enough sales to warrant further investment in V8s, esp. as automakers have to invest heavily in BEVs, as well as keeping an eye on FCEV development.

 

[MyCorvette]

^ China owns most of the oil sand fields in Canada and has acquired the rights to a lot of the oil being pumped in S. America; acquired these rights when these countries signed (favorable to the Chinese) development deals financed by Chinese banks.

While being less dependant on oil imports plays a role, the #1 reason China has turned to BEVs is due to trying to reduce the amount of pollution in the cities.

Another reason is that China sees BEVs as a way they can leapfrog the West ( and Korea and Japan) when it comes to the auto industry.

But it seems like China sees certain limits in the growth of the BEV sector as the person who speared BEV development in China has started to pivot to FCEVs.

Even the had of the SRT program has admitted that electrification is in the future of the Challenger and Charger (meaning a mix of ICE and battery power).

These days, an increasing # of buyers care more about the tech that is available (H/K/G's latest adaptive cruise and LKA driving system is better than Mercedes) rather than what's under the hood and something that is purely ICE is increasingly seen as being outdated.

The flagship segment increasingly is shrinking, and even if you add in sales of V8 powered flagship CUVs like the GLS, not enough sales to warrant further investment in V8s, esp. as automakers have to invest heavily in BEVs, as well as keeping an eye on FCEV development.

It has been proven that ICE cars running in China is not the major polluting source. If it is really due to ICE cars, then people should see heavy pollution and smog all year round in China. But the pollution and smog that are currently bothering China, mostly happens during winter. Why?

It is burning coal to generate electricity, and also producing heat supply for northern regions in winter are the major reasons that caused the heavy pollution and smog. China has lots of coal mine, and more than 60% of the electricity in China is generated from burning coal.

There are significantly more clean energy cars in China in the past 2-3 yrs, but as all can see, there is no improvement in winter pollution and smog. In fact it is even worse in China. Research shows that in 2019, more than 50% of China cities' PM 2.5 index are worse than 2018.

 

[YEH]

It's been proven that ICE (and particularly so-called "clean diesel") is the major source of air pollution in metro areas, including in the US, Korea and Europe.

Road traffic accounts for 80% of the nitrogen oxide emissions in the UK.

That's why cities in Europe have already been placing bans on diesels with plans to ban all ICE down the road.

Plus, it's not like China's coal plants are IN the cities.

 

[MyCorvette]

It's been proven that ICE (and particularly so-called "clean diesel") is the major source of air pollution in metro areas, including in the US, Korea and Europe.

Road traffic accounts for 80% of the nitrogen oxide emissions in the UK.

That's why cities in Europe have already been placing bans on diesels with plans to ban all ICE down the road.

Plus, it's not like China's coal plants are IN the cities.

I am talking about situations in China, not western countries or other Asian countries. Show me research papers/document from the Chinese government and institutes please.

 

[YEH]

^ Diesel vehicles were popular not only in China, but in SK and are still the price are powertrain in places like India (whose cities have among the worst air pollution).

BMW recently announced that the top line edition for the next M5 will have around 1k hp f t of 3 electric motors.

There will also be a lower 750 hp M5 powered by a hybrid V8 powertrain, using the carry over V8 (likely the last V8 we will see for BMW).

Japanese publication, Mag-X, is stating that there are rumors of Toyota mulling over whether they should go ahead with their TTV8 program.

Not surprised if they are thinking whether to cut their losses now or if they think they can get any ROI if they continue to plow ahead and finish the program.

After the announcement of the spin off of the Ioniq nameplate to an electric sub-brand (starting with 3 models), Hyundai shares finished up 10.5%.

You think the announcement of a new V8 would changed the share price at all (and that Hyundai would be better off investing in yesterday's tech instead of pouring their R&D into what will drive the future? ).

 

[Tommym]

Well, I'm a first time Genesis owner but I still have 2 Fords. When I decided on buying a Genesis it was because of the ratings, warranty, and how much car for the dollar. The car is mainly for my wife but the mechanical stuff was left to me. I had her test drive a Lexus GS350, which she was interested in, and a Genesis G80 V-6 base, (the only G80 model they had here in Las Vegas). She did get to see a G90 Ultimate so she could see the Napa leather interior and trim. After driving both she decided on the Genesis. Next we both drove a G70 3.3. Acceleration was impressive, back seat- great if you didn't have legs. I doubt if the 3.3 Twin Turbo would last in a very heavy G80. You have to buzz the crap out of it pulling a 6% hill. The only car I was interested in was the G80, 5.0 Ultimate. I keep my cars, no lease. I told the dealer what I wanted and it had to have less than 5000 miles on it. No dealer here has one and they were not interested in finding one. So, search we did. Found one in Poway, CA. 2019 with 2300 miles on it. Never registered, we get the full warranty. Had it shipped here. Had it for 2 months and so far no regrets. As far as fit and finish GM, Ford or Chrysler have nothing that is equal to it. Gas millage means nothing to me.
Now back to V-8 or Turbo V-6. I bought my first new hot rod, 69 Roadrunner, 440, 4 speed, 410 gears, in between tours in Vietnam with the 1st Division. I'm not a youngster. I love V-8s and horsepower.
The Genesis will be my last car. I have owned one non V-8 vehicle, a 2004 Toyota Tacoma Pre Runner with a 2.4L. My wife's little truck. Could not pass anything but it was still the best vehicle, mechanically, that I've ever owned. Destroyed in a wreck last September.
I understand that Genesis will not be offering the 5.0 in 2021. I think that is a mistake with these heavy cars. The 5.0 barely breaks a sweat on the freeway and doesn't care what hill you're climbing. I doubt if you can say that about the turbo 6 cylinder. The V-8 will out live it. It gets pretty warm here in Southern Nevada and the last thing I want is something creating a lot of heat under the hood. Enough heat and you'll ruin the electronics under the hood over time. I'll keep my NA V-8.
As for my other vehicles- a 2005 F350, 6.0 diesel, lifted 4x4, quad cab, long bed. Has everything Banks makes for horsepower. 475hp, 600ft lbs torque. Also have a 1987 Thunderbird Turbo Coupe. The turbo 4cyl was removed by me in 2003 and replaced with a 1988 fuel injected 5.0 from a Lincoln LSC, 4 lug wheels and brakes were replaced with 5 lug and a 8.8 rear end, 373 gears, from the LSC, 5 speed from a 93 Cobra. Two years of work. In August 2018 I took the car apart again. Built a new fuel injected 5.0, 450hp, replaced the fuel system to feed the engine, complete new brake system, full frame built, new cooling system, 75lbs of DynaMat, and a bunch more. Back on the road November 2018. A blast to drive. Climate control A/C, power windows, power seats, 5-speed, LOUD, 12mpg. Easy in traffic, 2300 rpms @ 70mph. So yes I love V-8s.

 

[EdP]

I understand that Genesis will not be offering the 5.0 in 2021. I think that is a mistake with these heavy cars. The 5.0 barely breaks a sweat on the freeway and doesn't care what hill you're climbing. I doubt if you can say that about the turbo 6 cylinder. The V-8 will out live it. It gets pretty warm here in Southern Nevada and the last thing I want is something creating a lot of heat under the hood. Enough heat and you'll ruin the electronics under the hood over time. I'll keep my NA V-8.

You may consider it a mistake but the EPA regulations make it impossible to have big engines these days. Won't be long in California you won't be able to buy an ICE. Much of Europe is heading the same way.

Car makers will spend millions to develop better electrics and spend $0 to make a better V-8. They have to.

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[Tommym]

You may consider it a mistake but the EPA regulations make it impossible to have big engines these days. Won't be long in California you won't be able to buy an ICE. Much of Europe is heading the same way.

Car makers will spend millions to develop better electrics and spend $0 to make a better V-8. They have to.

Unfortunately I agree with you on the EPA problem. There are still a few of us that like the V-8 engine and Genesis made a good one. I remember when the best V-8 you could buy had 225hp and now you can buy one with 600hp and it still is EPA compliant. But there has to be a demand for them and the car companies have to be willing to invest in the technology. With the tech comes a price.

What will virtually eliminate the V-8, I think, is the price of gas.

Are electric cars the answer? I doubt it. I can picture all the electric cars coming from California to Las Vegas looking for a place to plug in. Get stuck in traffic, stop and go, and you won't make it across the desert. Manufacturers can spend all they want on "green" vehicles but where are you going to plug it in? Eliminate the government subsidies and electric vehicles will become a luxury.

The infrastructure to support massive numbers of electric cars will not be in place for decades. Who is going to pay for it? The investment cost will be staggering. Trying to find a plug-in for your electric car might cost you $100 to go the last 80 miles and you will be sitting in 100* temps while it recharges. That is private enterprise. The national electrical grid is not capable of supporting such a massive load. Winter in the northwest, central and the east coast are another problem altogether. Hurricanes or tornados wiping out the infrastructure? How long do you think it will take to replace a "green" power grid? All of a sudden you need millions of solar panels? Not going to happen.

California has "brown outs" because their "green" power grid is incapable of handling the existing load. What do you think will happen when the only vehicles allowed are electric? The infrastructure is not in place and might never be because of the cost involved. California is broke.

Driving a "green" vehicle might be a nice thought but it still takes a whole lot of fossil fuel to build it. Sooner or later, if the percentage of electric vehicles increases, car manufacturers will end up accessing a recycle fee of several thousand dollars to every car. The technology is not in place to recycle them and will have to be created nationwide.

Are hybrids or hydrogen powered vehicles the answer? Maybe. But, again, you will still be reliant on fossil fuels and the internal combustion engine.

 

[EdP]

Unfortunately I agree with you on the EPA problem. There are still a few of us that like the V-8 engine and Genesis made a good one. I remember when the best V-8 you could buy had 225hp and now you can buy one with 600hp and it still is EPA compliant. But there has to be a demand for them and the car companies have to be willing to invest in the technology. With the tech comes a price.

What will virtually eliminate the V-8, I think, is the price of gas.

Are electric cars the answer? I doubt it. I can picture all the electric cars coming from California to Las Vegas looking for a place to plug in. Get stuck in traffic, stop and go, and you won't make it across the desert. Manufacturers can spend all they want on "green" vehicles but where are you going to plug it in? Eliminate the government subsidies and electric vehicles will become a luxury.

The infrastructure to support massive numbers of electric cars will not be in place for decades. Who is going to pay for it? The investment cost will be staggering. Trying to find a plug-in for your electric car might cost you $100 to go the last 80 miles and you will be sitting in 100* temps while it recharges. That is private enterprise. The national electrical grid is not capable of supporting such a massive load. Winter in the northwest, central and the east coast are another problem altogether. Hurricanes or tornados wiping out the infrastructure? How long do you think it will take to replace a "green" power grid? All of a sudden you need millions of solar panels? Not going to happen.

California has "brown outs" because their "green" power grid is incapable of handling the existing load. What do you think will happen when the only vehicles allowed are electric? The infrastructure is not in place and might never be because of the cost involved. California is broke.

Driving a "green" vehicle might be a nice thought but it still takes a whole lot of fossil fuel to build it. Sooner or later, if the percentage of electric vehicles increases, car manufacturers will end up accessing a recycle fee of several thousand dollars to every car. The technology is not in place to recycle them and will have to be created nationwide.

Are hybrids or hydrogen powered vehicles the answer? Maybe. But, again, you will still be reliant on fossil fuels and the internal combustion engine.

I would consider an electric as a second car in the future. Every few months I make a 1200 mile each way trip. It is 16 to 18 hours driving and I make a couple of quick stop for gas and usually a six to eight hour motel stop. With an electric, I'd have to make probably 3 stops for charging for an hour or two. Most motels do not yet have charge stations. It would be a terrible trip.

I have no idea of the details needed but it will take 25 to 50 years to build the infrastructure needed. My house has enough power to it to handle a charger but what do you do in a 50 or 100 unit apartment complex? How may power plants will CA need?

Not impossible, but won't be next year by executive order of some governor.

 

[Tommym]

I would consider an electric as a second car in the future. Every few months I make a 1200 mile each way trip. It is 16 to 18 hours driving and I make a couple of quick stop for gas and usually a six to eight hour motel stop. With an electric, I'd have to make probably 3 stops for charging for an hour or two. Most motels do not yet have charge stations. It would be a terrible trip.

I have no idea of the details needed but it will take 25 to 50 years to build the infrastructure needed. My house has enough power to it to handle a charger but what do you do in a 50 or 100 unit apartment complex? How may power plants will CA need?

Not impossible, but won't be next year by executive order of some governor.

For California to add power plants might take 25 years just for the permit for one plant. It took 10 years to get the permits for a water storage project. When are they outlawing the sale of fossil fuel vehicles? Are they going to import millions of golf carts from China in the meantime?

To upgrade the grid, nationally, to handle the load- time frame unknown. The grid has been falling apart for the last 20 years. Power companies know it, provide band aids, but appeasing shareholders comes first.

If the "greenies" win where will they start? California wants to be rid of natural gas, a few coal plants, and nuclear plants. Even if they covered the state in solar panels and the ocean in windmills they would still have brownouts. When does everyone get home from work? 3 to 6pm? First thing they will do is plug in their "green" cars. The larger the vehicle the more batteries it will take to move them. Pick ups, semis, buses, farm and construction equipment, trains? If it's cloudy, smoke from endless forest fires, hail, snow, dust all affect solar power. Even the best panels are only 26% efficient. What is going to pick up the load? What about the batteries needed to store power for use at night? California will be thrown back to 1860 overnight. You will have mass migration to anywhere there is electricity.

As far as price per kilowatt hour you will see at least $2.00 as the bottom bracket, tiered up from there. We pay $0.11 here in Las Vegas. That is one way to force people to conserve. You will not be able to afford air conditioning. You will pay a fee for each appliance you have. A $400 bill per month just to charge your car?

We have a solar concentrator plant just south of town. I think it is 2000 acres of mirrors. Built buy a contractor, heavily subsidized by the taxpayer. The only way it works is if it uses massive ammounts of natural gas to make steam to run the turbines. Of course it is very efficient at bird control. If birds fly through the light beam from the mirrors it vaporizes them and the debris falls on the mirrors. There is another plant in central Nevada they just closed because it was too expensive to maintain. More stupidity from the environmental lobby in partnership with our government and paid for by the taxpayer.

 

[EdP]

For California to add power plants might take 25 years just for the permit for one plant. It took 10 years to get the permits for a water storage project. When are they outlawing the sale of fossil fuel vehicles? Are they going to import millions of golf carts from China in the meantime?

To upgrade the grid, nationally, to handle the load- time frame unknown. The grid has been falling apart for the last 20 years. Power companies know it, provide band aids, but appeasing shareholders comes first.

If the "greenies" win where will they start? California wants to be rid of natural gas, a few coal plants, and nuclear plants. Even if they covered the state in solar panels and the ocean in windmills they would still have brownouts. When does everyone get home from work? 3 to 6pm? First thing they will do is plug in their "green" cars. The larger the vehicle the more batteries it will take to move them. Pick ups, semis, buses, farm and construction equipment, trains? If it's cloudy, smoke from endless forest fires, hail, snow, dust all affect solar power. Even the best panels are only 26% efficient. What is going to pick up the load? What about the batteries needed to store power for use at night? California will be thrown back to 1860 overnight. You will have mass migration to anywhere there is electricity.

As far as price per kilowatt hour you will see at least $2.00 as the bottom bracket, tiered up from there. We pay $0.11 here in Las Vegas. That is one way to force people to conserve. You will not be able to afford air conditioning. You will pay a fee for each appliance you have. A $400 bill per month just to charge your car?

We have a solar concentrator plant just south of town. I think it is 2000 acres of mirrors. Built buy a contractor, heavily subsidized by the taxpayer. The only way it works is if it uses massive ammounts of natural gas to make steam to run the turbines. Of course it is very efficient at bird control. If birds fly through the light beam from the mirrors it vaporizes them and the debris falls on the mirrors. There is another plant in central Nevada they just closed because it was too expensive to maintain. More stupidity from the environmental lobby in partnership with our government and paid for by the taxpayer.

New ICE cars are out after 2035 so by 2045 most will be gone. It is also possible no new power plants will be needed because everyone would have moved out of the state by then. Industry may be gone. There will be three gas stations left selling to the last few customers at very high prices.

The idea is not so bad but much planning and work has to be done.

 

[Tommym]

New ICE cars are out after 2035 so by 2045 most will be gone. It is also possible no new power plants will be needed because everyone would have moved out of the state by then. Industry may be gone. There will be three gas stations left selling to the last few customers at very high prices.

The idea is not so bad but much planning and work has to be done.

You might be right. Last one leaving CA- Turn the lights off?

The tax base has been shrinking the last 20 years. Middle class was leaving. I lived in San Diego, 1961-, until I started working on out of town projects in 93. Ended up working on a water treatment plant in Henderson, NV in 94-95. Decided to have the wife come up and look for a house. Jobs were everywhere. Took about 20 minutes to find a job. It was like getting a 15% pay raise. That was Until 2009! Construction unemployment in Southern Nevada hit 50%. Back on the road again. Back to San Diego on industrial projects for the next 6 years.

The power problem isn't isolated to just California. Other areas of the country periodically replace grid sections that were damaged by weather. Upgrading equipment at the same time. The main problem with the grid today, minus environmentalist, is security. We will not have to worry about having enough power plants, solar panels or windmills if a major section of the grid is wiped out by EMP. The grid equipment is not hardened to protect it from a EMP strike of any size. The grid will fall like domino's. Re-enter the hated internal combustion engine and the reliance on fossil fuels. Life will return to the late 1800's. Two thirds of the population will cease to exist. We have come full circle.

 

[MG8]

You might be right. Last one leaving CA- Turn the lights off?

The tax base has been shrinking the last 20 years. Middle class was leaving. I lived in San Diego, 1961-, until I started working on out of town projects in 93. Ended up working on a water treatment plant in Henderson, NV in 94-95. Decided to have the wife come up and look for a house. Jobs were everywhere. Took about 20 minutes to find a job. It was like getting a 15% pay raise. That was Until 2009! Construction unemployment in Southern Nevada hit 50%. Back on the road again. Back to San Diego on industrial projects for the next 6 years.

The power problem isn't isolated to just California. Other areas of the country periodically replace grid sections that were damaged by weather. Upgrading equipment at the same time. The main problem with the grid today, minus environmentalist, is security. We will not have to worry about having enough power plants, solar panels or windmills if a major section of the grid is wiped out by EMP. The grid equipment is not hardened to protect it from a EMP strike of any size. The grid will fall like domino's. Re-enter the hated internal combustion engine and the reliance on fossil fuels. Life will return to the late 1800's. Two thirds of the population will cease to exist. We have come full circle.

I see everyone leaving that place if you are not rich your a slave to that state. Im originally from a place called San Francisco now better know as San Franshithole. Unfortunately ,hate to say my birth city and state of Commifornia is ran the hell down by A bunch of idiots.

 

[TinsleyC]

Well, I'm a first time Genesis owner ... So yes I love V-8s.

I enjoyed reading your post, and yes, I wish I had bought the V8. I've got the '19 V6 NA and when my lease is up, I may trade up to a '20 Ultimate V8. Not just for the engine, but the feature list on the Ultimate is significant over the base model.

 

[Tommym]

I see everyone leaving that place if you are not rich your a slave to that state. Im originally from a place called San Francisco now better know as San Franshithole. Unfortunately ,hate to say my birth city and state of Commifornia is ran the hell down by A bunch of idiots.

I was born in San Francisco. Lived in East Palo Alto until we moved to San Diego in 61. Navy brat. Life in California has changed, not for the good either. When we go to San Diego we stay down at what used to be Seaport Village. Cruise through my old stomping ground. I won't get out of the truck unles I'm carrying. And naturally my gun is illegal in CA. I drug my SoCal beach bunny to Henderson, NV in 95 kicking and screaming. After a couple of trips to the old homestead she stopped telling me "Do you know how hot it is?" No regrets on my part and she actually likes it now. Not the heat, the house.

 

[Tommym]

I enjoyed reading your post, and yes, I wish I had bought the V8. I've got the '19 V6 NA and when my lease is up, I may trade up to a '20 Ultimate V8. Not just for the engine, but the feature list on the Ultimate is significant over the base model.

I tried to find a 2020 but no luck. I am completely satisfied with the 2019 that I have. A 4700lb car needs a strong V-8. I bought the Ultimate because I do not like haggling with the dealer over options. The only options offered on the Ultimate are wheel locks and mud flaps. Perfect.

 

[MG8]

EPA not the f

I was born in San Francisco. Lived in East Palo Alto until we moved to San Diego in 61. Navy brat. Life in California has changed, not for the good either. When we go to San Diego we stay down at what used to be Seaport Village. Cruise through my old stomping ground. I won't get out of the truck unles I'm carrying. And naturally my gun is illegal in CA. I drug my SoCal beach bunny to Henderson, NV in 95 kicking and screaming. After a couple of trips to the old homestead she stopped telling me "Do you know how hot it is?" No regrets on my part and she actually likes it now. Not the heat, the house.

EPA not a very friendly area.