Hyundai Equus Schedule Posted

[bjjones]

Why would the Equus be a "sales flop" when Hyundai is only seeking about 1,500-1,800 in sales yearly.

The low sale figures given by Hyundai still does not mean that Hyundai will meet their projected sales quotas for the Equus.

Again, a new dealer network cannot be sustained selling low volume vehicles like the Genesis and Equus.

Well if that's the case how do you think that Lexus, Infiniti and Acura were formed? All the aforementioned name brands parent companies spent billions of dollars and each luxury marque started out with only TWO models which hardly garnered a high amount of sales (Infiniti actually only had one available model in 1989, the Q45). Again, this is Hyundai simply trying to cut corners and being overly cheap by not making the cost initiatives necessary to create a luxury car brand.

The difference is that Toyota, Nissan and Honda were already all major players in the US market (something that Hyundai quite isn't yet) and had the reputation as well as the sales figures in the US to subsidize the launch of a new make.

While Hyundai is not as established in America as the other Japanese car companies were when they started their upscale luxury brands, Hyundai has built a honorable name over the years for producing quality cars and is currently seventh overall in the US based on total car/truck sales. So on these facts alone, Hyundai is most certainly a major player now in the US automobile market. And with the Genesis sedan being a triumphant success and the most awarded car of 2009, the issue with Hyundai's reputation is not as relevant in this particular case as Hyundai has proven it can built a mid sized, luxury sedan to rival the best that the European and Japanese have to offer at a substantially lower price. Also, Hyundai/Kia is the second biggest car manufacture in Asia and the world's fourth largest automaker after Toyota, GM and VW so the point that Hyundai does not have the resources to create a separate name brand for the luxury models is somewhat misleading.

As for the Millenia and 929, they were decent/good cars, but more like the Azera than the Genesis.

Actually, the 929 is/was similar to Genesis, not the Azera. The 929 was Mazda's top of the line luxury car with a rear wheel drive platform. And the Millenia and 929 were both successful examples of Japanese luxury sedans made during the late 90's and early 2000's and just as good or better than some of the earlier models offered by it's counterparts at the time. However Mazda made a tragic mistake by getting cold feet and not fully investing and marketing these models like they should have.

The Phaeton was a failure (aside from its mundane styling) mostly b/c it was priced from the mid-$60k to over $100k - hardly, bringing any "value" to the equation (why buy a Phaeton when for a few grand more, one could buy the better looking A8?; the fact that the Phaeton looked like a stretched Passat didn't help).

I agree that VW made some major missteps with product development, research and marketing, so a separate luxury entity in this case probably would not have done much to help the Phaeton survive in the long run.

 

[dataguy]

Re: Equus today!!! (still drooling)

I was driving by my dealer today and Lo and Behold...something very new on display up front: a silver w/black interior Equus. It had been delivered to them about 30 minutes before. FYI, there was no sticker, no price.

What a beauty!

I could hardly imagine all the amenities: power rear seats, heated/cooled rear seats, beautiful (suede?) headliner, beautiful tray/desk top which folds out of passenger seat, controls which let you move the passenger front seat from the back console, lighted vanity mirrors for both rear passengers, monitor screen between the front seats, console with controls on it (too many to remember all). And the leg room in the back......I'm a 6'1" with long legs.....I couldn't even touch the back of the front seats. WOW! Front and rear cameras..... Too many to list.

Hey, Mark 888, two buttons by the DIS knob...one for adjusting the suspension (to sport) and the other for raising/lowering the car.

The dealership didn't even know the Equus was supposed to be coming in today. The schedule does not show that it's supposed to be here now.

For those of you in the Denver metro area, if you want to go see and drool all over the car, it's at Arapahoe Hyudai on Arapahoe Road (just 1/2 mile east of I-25). The key (fob) is locked up.....the salesfolks are not allowed to use/drive/start.....whatever. So, needless to say, no test drives. It is supposed to be here for 10 days.

But it IS a beauty. If any of you have any questions about it, let me know and I'll try and get your answers (by visiting again). If I remember to take my camera, I'll even try to take some pix if any of you want something specific.

Sounds like the KDM Equus, since I don't think the NA model is getting all of those features. But it definitely is a nice car.

EDIT: Did it have U.S. or European style plate mounts? The one I saw had Euro mounts, giving away that it was Korean.

 

[YEH]

The low sale figures given by Hyundai still does not mean that Hyundai will meet their projected sales quotas for the Equus.

Well, that remains to be seen.

Well if that's the case how do you think that Lexus, Infiniti and Acura were formed? All the aforementioned name brands parent companies spent billions of dollars and each luxury marque started out with only TWO models which hardly garnered a high amount of sales (Infiniti actually only had one available model in 1989, the Q45). Again, this is Hyundai simply trying to cut corners and being overly cheap by not making the cost initiatives necessary to create a luxury car brand.

Only one of those brands has truly been a success.

Also, all of the big 3 Japanese brands were more established in the US at the time of the launch of their "premium" brand, and w/ respect to US marketshare, had a significantly larger piece.

Even Lexus, if it had to rely on sales of the GS and LS (Lexus equivalents of the Genesis and Equus) exclusively, would be a flop today (what's carrying Lexus are sales of the RX, ES, IS and the really fugly hybrid).

As for Infiniti, the M30 coupe was launched alongside the Q45, and like the Q45, was a flop.

The M30, alongside other early Infiniti offerings were basically rebadged Nissans, and despite carrying a "prestige" badge - never saw big sales.

While Hyundai is not as established in America as the other Japanese car companies were when they started their upscale luxury brands, Hyundai has built a honorable name over the years for producing quality cars and is currently seventh overall in the US based on total car/truck sales.

While knowledgable people know that the Hyundai has surpassed all other non-luxury Japanese makes, aside from Honda and Toyota, for reliability, the majority of Americans still don't think of Hyundai on the level of the Japanese big 3 (or even on the level of Mazda or Subie).

Last year, only 23% of all new-car buyers even bothered to consider a Hyundai; Hyundai needs to get that figure into at least the mid to high 30% range before expending energy/resources for a new brand/dealer network (the upcoming gen. of Hyundai/Kia products should do the trick).

Also, Hyundai/Kia is the second biggest car manufacture in Asia and the world's fourth largest automaker after Toyota, GM and VW so the point that Hyundai does not have the resources to create a separate name brand for the luxury models is somewhat misleading.

And Hyundai should be using their (growing) sales in Asia to become even more competitive there - and not use such sales/profits to subsidize a new nameplate in the (increasingly less impt.) American market.

Once Hyundai/Kia attains 7-9% of the US market on a prolonged basis, then US sales could subsidize the US luxury nameplate.

Actually, the 929 is/was similar to Genesis, not the Azera. The 929 was Mazda's top of the line luxury car with a rear wheel drive platform. And the Millenia and 929 were both successful examples of Japanese luxury sedans made during the late 90's and early 2000's and just as good or better than some of the earlier models offered by it's counterparts at the time. However Mazda made a tragic mistake by getting cold feet and not fully investing and marketing these models like they should have.

What I meant is that the 929/Millenia were more similar to the Azera in that they were "nice" attempts at a luxury automobile (by Mazda), but hardly what one would consider a serious alternative to the Germans, much less Lexus or Infiniti today.

The 929's competitor was seen as the Cressida, the Millenia's main competitor was the Maxima.

 

[bjjones]

Originally Posted by bjjones
Well if that's the case how do you think that Lexus, Infiniti and Acura were formed? All the aforementioned name brands parent companies spent billions of dollars and each luxury marque started out with only TWO models which hardly garnered a high amount of sales (Infiniti actually only had one available model in 1989, the Q45). Again, this is Hyundai simply trying to cut corners and being overly cheap by not making the cost initiatives necessary to create a luxury car brand.

Only one of those brands has truly been a success.

Acura and Infiniti not a success? That's certainly a laughable statement. While Acura and Infiniti when compared to Lexus are not as prosperous from a sales perspective, Lexus has more product offerings available than the other 2 Japanese brands which contribute to higher overall sales figures for Lexus. However Infiniti and Acura are currently ranked 5th and 6th overall in total sales for all Luxury Brands in 2008 and currently year to date for 2009. This means that Infiniti and Acura sell more cars yearly in the US than Audi, Volvo, Lincoln, Jaguar, Land Rover, and Saab. This data is amazing due to the fact that many of the other marques have been around for much longer and have more established name recognition within the general public. So to post that Infiniti and Acura are not successful luxury car brands is quite disingenuous.

Even Lexus, if it had to rely on sales of the GS and LS (Lexus equivalents of the Genesis and Equus) exclusively, would be a flop today (what's carrying Lexus are sales of the RX, ES, IS and the really fugly hybrid).

If I took your ridiculous comment that Lexus is the only successful Japanese Luxury Brand seriously, it still doesn't change the fact that it became that way with Toyota spending Billions to launch and promote Lexus and that Lexus was introduced to the public with 2 cars. So the current lineup of Lexus automobiles today has no bearing in regards to this matter.

As for Infiniti, the M30 coupe was launched alongside the Q45, and like the Q45, was a flop.

The M30, alongside other early Infiniti offerings were basically rebadged Nissans, and despite carrying a "prestige" badge - never saw big sales.

The Infiniti Q45 models failed to capture enthusiasts interest through out their various life cycles due mostly in part to lack of target marketing, even though it was one of the best cars available during it's heyday in the large luxury sedan segment. This was one of the main reasons Infiniti was originally criticized by the automotive press because Infiniti showed a lack of awareness and understanding when trying to promote their automobiles. But irregardless of the errors made by Infiniti in it's inception, the name branding allowed them to masks some of the previous mistakes, which is why they are flourishing today and known worldwide as a top automobile brand. These examples just further validate my point that marketing and brand image is what sells luxury cars more so than other factors.

What I meant is that the 929/Millenia were more similar to the Azera in that they were "nice" attempts at a luxury automobile (by Mazda), but hardly what one would consider a serious alternative to the Germans, much less Lexus or Infiniti today.

The 929's competitor was seen as the Cressida, the Millenia's main competitor was the Maxima.

Most earlier examples of Japanese luxury cars were not quite up to par with the European brands. And even though the 929 was more of a competitor to the Toyota Cressida, than the other European sedans available at the time it is still more likened to the current Genesis than the Azera, based on it's overall features and rear-wheel drive architecture. Also the Millenia was not a direct competitor with the Maxima but the Infiniti I30/I35 sedan, which was basically a Nissan Maxima sedan with upgraded interior materials and different body styling (The second generation I30/I35 2002-2004 also added a viscous limited-slip differential and more sound deadening to separate it futher from the Maxima). The Mazda Millenia's other actual competitors were the Acura 3.2 TL, Lexus ES300, Audi A6, Saab 9000, Volvo 850, Mercedes Benz C Class just to name a few. Here are a few links below with comparison tests between the Millenia and others in it's class.

http://www.edmunds.com/insideline/do/Drives/Comparos/articleId=46528/pageId=4787
http://www.popularmechanics.com/automotive/new_cars/1270036.html
http://www.motortrend.com/roadtests/oneyear/112_9602_1995_mazda_millenia_s/index.html

Also review the link below and read what the Edmund's editors had to say about how lack of brand image associated with the Millenia compared to the other cars in it's class and how this was linked to it's poor resale value and ultimate demise.

http://www.edmunds.com/insideline/do/Drives/Comparos/articleId=46528/pageId=4788

 

[jackechan1]

Mitsubishi Diamante. Mazda 929. Mazda Millenia. These are three examples of very good cars that were equal or better than the others but even with discount prices all 3 fail. The problem is not with the car, but on the logo that sat in the grill. Most buyers in luxury class are buying for that status logo.

To get into this type of market, you need that well known brand. Toyota, Nissan, and Honda realized this, and made Lexus, Infiniti, and Acura. Mazda had realized this too and was about to introduce the Amati brand, but turned back at the last minute because of Infiniti and Acura's downturn at the time. The Millenia had already been ready to be Amati's entry-level sedan, but it was rebadged as a Mazda so that all of the costs wouldn't have gone to waste.

If the Millenia had the Amati name badge, it would have been more successful than it was as a Mazda. Spending $30k+ on a car is not the same when it is sitting next to a $10k base-model Protege or MX-3.

I think Hyundai will find this out as they try to get customers to buy the Equus that's sitting next to that Accent, expecially when for the same money, that consumer can buy an entry-level Lexus, Mercedes, or BMW. Hyundai is making big error by not having another name brand on the more costly cars. The Equus will have more features and option, but what most people will be looking at is that same Hyundai badge sitting in the grill of a car company that's trying hard to be the cheapest car in America. They'll think to themselves, "If other people see me driving this Equus, and they see the Hyundai badge on it, will they really think 'I've made it big' or will they just immediately label me as cheap?" Sad to say, this is the way most are when dealing with expensive cars.

 

[ajls09873]

Hyundai is making big error by not having another name brand on the more costly cars. The Equus will have more features and option, but what most people will be looking at is that same Hyundai badge sitting in the grill of a car company that's trying hard to be the cheapest car in America. They'll think to themselves, "If other people see me driving this Equus, and they see the Hyundai badge on it, will they really think 'I've made it big' or will they just immediately label me as cheap?" Sad to say, this is the way most are when dealing with expensive cars.

Exactly.
I think so.
I heard Hyundai Headquarter in Seoul want create new luxury brand, but Hyundai America (HMA) opposed it. Because, it required 3 billion dollars.

 

[YEH]

Well if that's the case how do you think that Lexus, Infiniti and Acura were formed? All the aforementioned name brands parent companies spent billions of dollars and each luxury marque started out with only TWO models which hardly garnered a high amount of sales (Infiniti actually only had one available model in 1989, the Q45). Again, this is Hyundai simply trying to cut corners and being overly cheap by not making the cost initiatives necessary to create a luxury car brand.

Again, the Hyundai higher-ups wanted to launch a new lux marque, but it was the US Hyundai execs who put the kabash on it by stating that the US market is not quite yet ready for a luxury brand from Hyundai (so your repeated assertion/claim that Hyundai is "cutting corners" and being cheap is inherently FALSE.

Hyundai is planning to launch its prestige brand in 5-6 yrs time when it has (1) gained more credibility in the US market (right now, less than a quarter of auto buyers would even consider a Hyunda)i; (2) gained a larger share of the US market (last year, Hyundai/Kia's share of the US market was a little over 4%); and (3) has more products ready to launch.

Lexus had the ES250 which was a high volume model and Acura had the high volume Integra line.

The M30 was sold alongside the Q45 at the onset, but both were poor sellers; there's a reason why not only Infiniti, but all of Nissan was in dire financial straits a decade or so ago.

Acura and Infiniti not a success? That's certainly a laughable statement. While Acura and Infiniti when compared to Lexus are not as prosperous from a sales perspective, Lexus has more product offerings available than the other 2 Japanese brands which contribute to higher overall sales figures for Lexus. However Infiniti and Acura are currently ranked 5th and 6th overall in total sales for all Luxury Brands in 2008 and currently year to date for 2009. This means that Infiniti and Acura sell more cars yearly in the US than Audi, Volvo, Lincoln, Jaguar, Land Rover, and Saab. This data is amazing due to the fact that many of the other marques have been around for much longer and have more established name recognition within the general public. So to post that Infiniti and Acura are not successful luxury car brands is quite disingenuous.

Oh, please.

Infiniti has had model after model that has had little impact on the auto market and even its flagship, the Q45 saw an untimely death due to poor sales.

Basically, one model (well, two) - the G35/45 sedan and coupe is what has kept Infiniti viable in the US market.

Acura has had better success, but a lot of its early success was based on the Integra, hardly a 'luxury" model, w/ the relatively high volume TSX (European Accord rebadge) and Honda Pilot, er Acura MDX, providing much of the sales volume.

The new TL is a flop (likely will barely make HALF of its 70k annual sales projection) and the RL is basically good as dead (last month sold 150 units and has been selling 200 or so monthly for the whole year).

Yes - have these brands been "successes" compared against European or American luxury brands that are seeing hard times?

But at the same time, the Lexus RX outsells the entire Acura lineup and BMW sells pretty much as many 3 Series as the entire Infiniti lineup.

If I took your ridiculous comment that Lexus is the only successful Japanese Luxury Brand seriously, it still doesn't change the fact that it became that way with Toyota spending Billions to launch and promote Lexus and that Lexus was introduced to the public with 2 cars. So the current lineup of Lexus automobiles today has no bearing in regards to this matter.

Lexus is the only truly successful Japanese luxury make - one which has been able to be seen on par (or at least close to) the "big boys"
(MB and BMW).

Most earlier examples of Japanese luxury cars were not quite up to par with the European brands. And even though the 929 was more of a competitor to the Toyota Cressida, than the other European sedans available at the time it is still more likened to the current Genesis than the Azera, based on it's overall features and rear-wheel drive architecture. Also the Millenia was not a direct competitor with the Maxima but the Infiniti I30/I35 sedan, which was basically a Nissan Maxima sedan with upgraded interior materials and different body styling (The second generation I30/I35 2002-2004 also added a viscous limited-slip differential and more sound deadening to separate it futher from the Maxima). The Mazda Millenia's other actual competitors were the Acura 3.2 TL, Lexus ES300, Audi A6, Saab 9000, Volvo 850, Mercedes Benz C Class just to name a few. Here are a few links below with comparison tests between the Millenia and others in it's class.

Again, my point is that the 929 and Millenia were nice attempts by Mazda but hardly "luxury" models that were seen as being class leading or being an incredible "bang for the buck."

Got some nice reviews, but hardly made the splash that the Genesis did.

The Millenia had already been ready to be Amati's entry-level sedan, but it was rebadged as a Mazda so that all of the costs wouldn't have gone to waste.

If the Millenia had the Amati name badge, it would have been more successful than it was as a Mazda. Spending $30k+ on a car is not the same when it is sitting next to a $10k base-model Protege or MX-3.

Mazda decided against launching Amati b/c they couldn't bear the financial burden of launching a new brand/dealer network (if they had done so, it likely would have been a boondoggle and hastened Ford buying a controlling stake).

Also, keep in mind that while an Amati badge would have been a plus, the resulting costs of launching a new brand/dealer network would have resulted in a not so insignificant price increase on the Millenia and other planned Amati models.

I think Hyundai will find this out as they try to get customers to buy the Equus that's sitting next to that Accent, expecially when for the same money, that consumer can buy an entry-level Lexus, Mercedes, or BMW. Hyundai is making big error by not having another name brand on the more costly cars. The Equus will have more features and option, but what most people will be looking at is that same Hyundai badge sitting in the grill of a car company that's trying hard to be the cheapest car in America. They'll think to themselves, "If other people see me driving this Equus, and they see the Hyundai badge on it, will they really think 'I've made it big' or will they just immediately label me as cheap?" Sad to say, this is the way most are when dealing with expensive cars.

Again, Hyundai knows that it eventually will have to launch a premium brand to be a serious player in the lux market (which they are planning to do in 5-6 yrs time).

As for the Equus, Hyundai never intended it for the US market, and only decided to bring it over when enough public interest warranted Hyundai to bring it over (and even then, Hyundai is expecting modest sales and sees it more as a marketing/halo exercise to lift the brand's image so that the public would be more accepting of a luxury brand from Hyundai.

Hyundai presently is in the same position that the Japanese Big 3 were in during the late 1970s, and will need 5-6 yrs, w/ the Genesis, Equus and the next gen lineup - 2011 Sonata, Elantra, Santa Fe, etc. - to bring itself up to par to what Toyota, Nissan and Honda were during the late 1980s when they launched their premium brands.

Also, when Toyota launched Lexus, Toyota had about 8-9% of the US auto market. Last year, when the Genesis was launched, Hyundai/Kia had about 4% of the US auto market.

It is much more prudent for Hyundai/Kia at this time to spend their resources to grow and improve their mainstream brands rather then dumping billions into a lux marque.

In addition, the US auto market is much less impt. than it was during the 1980s, and Hyundai/Kia also has to spend significant resources to grow their brands in China, India, Europe and S. America (the fact that Hyundai has spent a lot of their resources and energy in the Chinese and Indian markets is a main reason why was one of the few automakers to make a significant profit last year - Toyota and Nissan lost a lot of $$; Honda barely turned a profit).

Methinks the people at Hyundai know what they are doing.

I heard Hyundai Headquarter in Seoul want create new luxury brand, but Hyundai America (HMA) opposed it. Because, it required 3 billion dollars.

HMA opposed it b/c they didn't think the US market was quite ready for a luxury brand from Hyundai (and they were right) - the people at HMA didn't really care about the $3 billion since it's not their money.

 

[bjjones]

Again, the Hyundai higher-ups wanted to launch a new lux marque, but it was the US Hyundai execs who put the kabash on it by stating that the US market is not quite yet ready for a luxury brand from Hyundai (so your repeated assertion/claim that Hyundai is "cutting corners" and being cheap is inherently FALSE.

The fact remains that Hyundai's parent branch in Korea did not force the issue after making it known that they were in favor of a Luxury Marque here in the US and Hyundai Motor America decided after the fact not to follow through. So however you attempt to frame the issue despite your incessant rants Hyundai as a company has decided to take the low-rent, bargain basement methodology by not turning out a luxury name brand.

Oh, please.

Infiniti has had model after model that has had little impact on the auto market and even its flagship, the Q45 saw an untimely death due to poor sales.

Basically, one model (well, two) - the G35/45 sedan and coupe is what has kept Infiniti viable in the US market.

Infiniti does not make a G45, the 4.5 liter V8 is in the M series sedan. And the Infiniti G series outsells both the Lexus ES and IS in the Entry Level Category and in the Mid-Level Category the Infiniti M series outsells the Lexus GS. But you are also incorrect in regards to these being the only 2 models keeping Infiniti "viable in the US market" as the QX56 SUV sales are higher than that of the Lexus LX570 in the SUV Large category (even though the QX56 IS on a older platform) and the Infiniti FX trumps the Lexus GX in the SUV Midsized (even though the Lexus GX AND Infiniti FX are not actually true competitors the SUV Midsized and SUV Large are configured and categorized as such for automotive industry sales data) so your assertion are incorrect again. As stated previously Lexus sales numbers are much better than both Infiniti and Acura due to Lexus offering more models and specialty variations within it's lineup like Hybrids and the F series.

Acura has had better success, but a lot of its early success was based on the Integra, hardly a 'luxury" model, w/ the relatively high volume TSX (European Accord rebadge) and Honda Pilot, er Acura MDX, providing much of the sales volume.

The new TL is a flop (likely will barely make HALF of its 70k annual sales projection) and the RL is basically good as dead (last month sold 150 units and has been selling 200 or so monthly for the whole year).

Acura has had better success, but a lot of its early success was based on the Integra, hardly a 'luxury" model, w/ the relatively high volume TSX (European Accord rebadge) and Honda Pilot, er Acura MDX, providing much of the sales volume.

The new TL is a flop (likely will barely make HALF of its 70k annual sales projection) and the RL is basically good as dead (last month sold 150 units and has been selling 200 or so monthly for the whole year).

Again, the breakdown of various model from the manufactures (especially past tense) is useless. I am discussing overall yearly sales numbers within the last 2 to 3 years as I clearly mentioned in previous posts. Lexus has more product offerings than Acura which allows Lexus to have a substantial sales volume. And what's so amazing is that even though the the Acura TL's styling has polarized many potential buyers and sales are down from the previous model designation, how is it that Acura is still among the top luxury brands for overall sales? However you would like to phrase it in your mundane posts, I am discussing current events (not things based in the last decade or more) based on sales information and you still can't disregard Acura's and Infiniti's progress based in total sales within the last 3 years for luxury car brands.

Yes - have these brands been "successes" compared against European or American luxury brands that are seeing hard times?

Excuses, excuses! Who cares if the American or European brands are having a dismal time at selling luxury cars now? All luxury car manufactures sales are down! It's just that the Japanese sales are not decreasing like the rest are. This evidently means that the Japanese are doing something right and the others are obviously doing something wrong. Bad management, poor design and build quality of cars along with the failure to observe and capitalize on marketing trends by the American and European brands are why their market shares are dwindling, and this is not the fault of Acura and Infiniti.

Lexus is the only truly successful Japanese luxury make - one which has been able to be seen on par (or at least close to) the "big boys"
(MB and BMW).

Only from a sales standpoint. Infiniti and Acura models are the equivalent or better than cars from Mercedes Benz, BMW and Lexus. Numerous magazine reviews and awards have proven this to be fact.

Mazda decided against launching Amati b/c they couldn't bear the financial burden of launching a new brand/dealer network (if they had done so, it likely would have been a boondoggle and hastened Ford buying a controlling stake).

Mazda evidently made the wrong decision in both regards by declining to continue the Amati brand and letting Ford purchase a controlling stake in the company, because the majority interest held by Ford is what screwed Mazda and put them in the plight they are in now, when they were on the up rise in the US, as it did for most of the other brands Ford owned like Volvo, Jaguar and Land Rover when Ford controlled the purse strings.

Also, keep in mind that while an Amati badge would have been a plus, the resulting costs of launching a new brand/dealer network would have resulted in a not so insignificant price increase on the Millenia and other planned Amati models.

Unless you were/are a part of Mazda/Ford Motor Company during that time frame or have some relevant inside information based on this situation it's hard to say if the cost of the Millenia would have been higher sold under the Amati brand than what the MSRP was during it's life cycle of 1995 - 2003 in the USA as a Mazda. Keep in mind that the Japanese luxury brands originally started with models priced lower than the more established brands to lure in customers. More likely than not, the base prices for the Millenia were slightly higher than if the model was sold under the Amati name brand. Mazda had to sell the Millenia at similar pricing with it's competiton to recoup the marketing investment Mazda lost after eliminating the Amati brand.

As for the Equus, Hyundai never intended it for the US market, and only decided to bring it over when enough public interest warranted Hyundai to bring it over (and even then, Hyundai is expecting modest sales and sees it more as a marketing/halo exercise to lift the brand's image so that the public would be more accepting of a luxury brand from Hyundai.

Hyundai does not need the Equus to prove that they are capable of building world class luxury automobiles, as the Genesis has already established this fact. However, most potential buyers of the Equus are in a different demographic and have a totally different mindset in regards to auto purchases to which cost savings alone are not necessarily the factor.

It is much more prudent for Hyundai/Kia at this time to spend their resources to grow and improve their mainstream brands rather then dumping billions into a lux marque.

While this may be true for Hyundai's regular lineup of cars, you can't build a luxury car and attempt to sell it to the masses under the Hyundai name and expect buyers to acclimate to Hyundai's more expensive models. So based on your theory, Hyundai should have waited until they had all the resources in line to pursue the luxury car market with vigor. Also, keep in mind that Hyundai could lose market share and revenues over the next 5 to 6 years, so growth is not guaranteed. Furthermore, the costs to ramp up a luxury car brand may increase if the US dollar continues to fall.

Methinks the people at Hyundai know what they are doing.

Building a company with the mantra of selling inexpensive, economy cars and attempting to do the same with more expensive models under the same umbrella are a totally different proposition altogether. If there is not a luxury car brand designated for Hyundai's upscale lineup, this experiment will more likely than not falter.

HMA opposed it b/c they didn't think the US market was quite ready for a luxury brand from Hyundai (and they were right) - the people at HMA didn't really care about the $3 billion since it's not their money.

The statement you quoted from another board member is redundant, as you have repeated this numerous times within your last post. So why bother to use it a reference again? Your hypothesis in regards to Hyundai making the correct decision by not launching a luxury brand is just that, your opinion. Only time will truly tell if Hyundai made the right choice or a serious error in judgment by not creating a name brand marque from start.

 

[Hghwy52]

A separate dealership for the Genesis with current sales figures of about 2000 per month sedan/coupe combined would not be sustainable. An upgrade of existing dealers might be enough to overcome the brand ID problem. Some non-premium brands sell some pretty expensive cars: Nissan GT-R, Chevy Corvette, Toyota Land Crusier to name three. Even as a different brand I don't think the current Genesis would compete well with the luxury brands. When the Lexus LS came out in '89 it was better than BMW and Mercedes for less dough. The Genesis is better than Avalon, Maxima, Chrysler 300 among others. The Equus may be a different story but if they restrict the number of dealers as I've read and if the Equus is as good as a Lexus LS460 for a base price of around 50K they will probably hit their target of 1500 per year and raise the image of the Genesis in the process.

 

[bjjones]

A separate dealership for the Genesis with current sales figures of about 2000 per month sedan/coupe combined would not be sustainable. An upgrade of existing dealers might be enough to overcome the brand ID problem. Some non-premium brands sell some pretty expensive cars: Nissan GT-R, Chevy Corvette, Toyota Land Crusier to name three. Even as a different brand I don't think the current Genesis would compete well with the luxury brands. When the Lexus LS came out in '89 it was better than BMW and Mercedes for less dough. The Genesis is better than Avalon, Maxima, Chrysler 300 among others. The Equus may be a different story but if they restrict the number of dealers as I've read and if the Equus is as good as a Lexus LS460 for a base price of around 50K they will probably hit their target of 1500 per year and raise the image of the Genesis in the process.

The Nissan GT-R, Chevy Corvette and Toyota Land Cruiser are all low volume, specialty models. So unless Hyundai only wants to produce exclusive cars that has limited sales volumes inside North America then these examples you listed above are not valid comparisons. Furthermore Chevrolet, Toyota and Nissan can sell the Land Cruiser, Corvette, GT-R at a premium without losing money because these are iconic, well respected vehicles known worldwide which have a following already (Toyota Land Cruiser has been in production for 56 years, the Chevrolet Corvette 57 years and the Nissan GT-R off and on 16 years respectively) and a built in consumer base interested in purchasing whenever new editions are available.

People tend to confuse sales with image which are not always synonymous. This is why brand recognition is so important when selling cars in higher price ranges. Chrysler sold a boat load of 300 series and Charger models from 2005 to present, however most people do not consider or think of Chrysler as a luxury brand even though they make a extremely nice luxury sedan for a decent price. Remember the Genesis has been heralded by many a automobile journalist/publication and compared not only to cars within it's price range but more expensive cars such as the Lexus GS 350/460 BMW 5 Series and the Infiniti M so Hyundai has achieved some status similar to what the Lexus LS400 did in 1989 by trouncing the competition with better options and features with a lower price.

I do agree that if Hyundai was this inept and fearful of spending the full investment it takes to set in motion a luxury brand they could have at least created a separate marque name brand and built adjoining showrooms/remote outdoor areas at current Hyundai's dealership (Hyundai dealerships located in or close to high end areas or upper middle class suburbs) along with a dedicated sales force that has true knowledge of the product and understand what true customer service means. As I have said before numerous times on this thread, there are more things that a luxury car buyer looks at besides price and features.

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[SterlingDave]

Re: Equus today!!! (still drooling)

Sounds like the KDM Equus, since I don't think the NA model is getting all of those features. But it definitely is a nice car.

EDIT: Did it have U.S. or European style plate mounts? The one I saw had Euro mounts, giving away that it was Korean.

Dataguy, I was at the dealership yesterday and checked the plate mounts....there were mounts for the wide (Euro) size AND the American size. I was talking to the salesman about its ultimate destination and he said it has a VIN (most definitely American!). So, take what you will from that.....still a very, very, nice vehicle.

 

[YEH]

bjjones - I don't know what to say to get this through to your head.

Again - no one is saying that Hyundai/Kia shouldn't launch a separate lux marque, but the timing simply isn't right (otoh, 5-6 yrs down the road as planned....).

So basically, you want HK to pour BILLIONS into the US luxury auto market, a market that is contracting, when they should be focusing on turning themselves into a 1st tier mainstream brand in the US (and Europe), as well as keeping themselves at the forefront of the growing China and India markets.

As I stated in the other thread, launching a luxury brand in the US right now would be premature and is akin to Toyota launching Lexus during the late 1970s (as opposed to 1989).

 

[Hghwy52]

I think Hyundai's chance to launch a luxury division has passed. The more time that goes buy the more difficult it will be to rebrand Genesis/Equus and sell them at a premium and it's unlikely Hyundai would build new models to slot above them. A more viable option is the separate brand at select dealers scenario that some have mentioned. Already, the plan is to sell the Equus only at certain dealers.

The problem with the Genesis sedan, to the extent there is one, is that it's made by Hyundai which would still be the case as a separate brand. If the Genesis wore a Toyota or Nissan badge few people would argue that it is too expensive for the brand. And people would applaud the added luxury of the interior. The Avalon tops out at about 40K; the Maxima, Highlander, Venza and Murano even higher. People are used to seeing 40K+ models in some trims for those brands.

The problems that Hyundai has to overcome are the perceived inferiority of Hyundai models and the dealership experience. Requiring upgrades for dealerships that sell the Genesis might help but Hyundai is going to have to get closer to Toyota/Honda/Nissan as a desirable brand for the future of the Genesis sedan to be assured.

It was reported in Ward's Auto World that the new Sonata will not have a V6 option. If true, it will make the Genesis even more important in Hyundai's attempt to move upmarket.

 

[bjjones]

bjjones - I don't know what to say to get this through to your head.

Again - no one is saying that Hyundai/Kia shouldn't launch a separate lux marque, but the timing simply isn't right (otoh, 5-6 yrs down the road as planned....).

So basically, you want HK to pour BILLIONS into the US luxury auto market, a market that is contracting, when they should be focusing on turning themselves into a 1st tier mainstream brand in the US (and Europe), as well as keeping themselves at the forefront of the growing China and India markets.

As I stated in the other thread, launching a luxury brand in the US right now would be premature and is akin to Toyota launching Lexus during the late 1970s (as opposed to 1989).

It seems to me that your the one with retention issues. If Hyundai wanted to wait half a decade or longer to branch out into the luxury category, then they should have conserved all the necessary capital and resources to shore up the luxury brand later instead of spending extra money importing and pitching the Genesis and Equus to US consumers for a tiny share of the luxury market car sales, which will only further decline and provide very little money to flow into the new luxury brand coffers. The Genesis and Equus models will more likely than not fade into oblivion and become a distant memory to most consumers who thought of them as just really nice Hyundai's. This scenario won't be enough to get people to buy into Hyundai's luxury brand in 5-6 years and will do nothing to promote the new brands image long term. So in essence Hyundai really will be starting from scratch with very little to show or gain from this "we can build a better car than the others" experiment.

 

[bjjones]

I think Hyundai's chance to launch a luxury division has passed. The more time that goes buy the more difficult it will be to rebrand Genesis/Equus and sell them at a premium and it's unlikely Hyundai would build new models to slot above them. A more viable option is the separate brand at select dealers scenario that some have mentioned. Already, the plan is to sell the Equus only at certain dealers.

The problem with the Genesis sedan, to the extent there is one, is that it's made by Hyundai which would still be the case as a separate brand. If the Genesis wore a Toyota or Nissan badge few people would argue that it is too expensive for the brand. And people would applaud the added luxury of the interior. The Avalon tops out at about 40K; the Maxima, Highlander, Venza and Murano even higher. People are used to seeing 40K+ models in some trims for those brands.

The problems that Hyundai has to overcome are the perceived inferiority of Hyundai models and the dealership experience. Requiring upgrades for dealerships that sell the Genesis might help but Hyundai is going to have to get closer to Toyota/Honda/Nissan as a desirable brand for the future of the Genesis sedan to be assured.

It was reported in Ward's Auto World that the new Sonata will not have a V6 option. If true, it will make the Genesis even more important in Hyundai's attempt to move upmarket.

I agree with everything you have written. I do think Hyundai needs better product planners and marketing personnel though. The new Sonata should have a V6 engine as an option just like it's competition and instead of coming out with the Genesis coupe (which in it's current format should have stayed a Tiburon or been cancelled all together) if Hyundai currently had the luxury name brand already established, they could have created a luxury entry level sedan spun off the new Sonata similar to the Toyota Camry/Lexus ES350.

 

[ajls09873]

I agree with everything you have written. I do think Hyundai needs better product planners and marketing personnel though. The new Sonata should have a V6 engine as an option just like it's competition and instead of coming out with the Genesis coupe (which in it's current format should have stayed a Tiburon or been cancelled all together) if Hyundai currently had the luxury name brand already established, they could have created a luxury entry level sedan spun off the new Sonata similar to the Toyota Camry/Lexus ES350.

Agree. I think they can sell new sonata as Lexus ES if they have luxury division.

And, I think they already have capable ability of lux line up.

If Hyundai seperate their Luxury line up...

VeraCruz = Lexus RX
Genesis = Lexus GS
Equus = Lexus LS
2011 Sonata = Lexus ES
Genesis Coupe 4dr version = Lexus IS

Top line of Hyundai must end at Hyundai Azera (Like Toyota Avalon).

 

[YEH]

The problem with the Genesis sedan, to the extent there is one, is that it's made by Hyundai which would still be the case as a separate brand. If the Genesis wore a Toyota or Nissan badge few people would argue that it is too expensive for the brand. And people would applaud the added luxury of the interior. The Avalon tops out at about 40K; the Maxima, Highlander, Venza and Murano even higher. People are used to seeing 40K+ models in some trims for those brands.

The problems that Hyundai has to overcome are the perceived inferiority of Hyundai models and the dealership experience. Requiring upgrades for dealerships that sell the Genesis might help but Hyundai is going to have to get closer to Toyota/Honda/Nissan as a desirable brand for the future of the Genesis sedan to be assured.

Hence, it being too early for a premium luxury brand from Hyundai.

Hyundai needs to up its credibility w/ its bread and butter models (which likely will happen w/ the new Sonata and Elantra) before people will take a luxury brand from Hyundai seriously.

Launching a lux brand in 2008 would have been like Toyota launching Lexus during the 1970s (too early).

It was reported in Ward's Auto World that the new Sonata will not have a V6 option. If true, it will make the Genesis even more important in Hyundai's attempt to move upmarket.

While Hyundai might still offer a V6 for the US, even if they don't, they are just being smart regarding the future w/ regards to fuel economy standards (Hyundai is reportedly going to offer a turbo variant of the 4 putting out over 250HP for those interested in more power).

For those who really want a V6, there's always the Azera (which will undergo a redesign soon) or the new Kia Cadenza.

It seems to me that your the one with retention issues. If Hyundai wanted to wait half a decade or longer to branch out into the luxury category, then they should have conserved all the necessary capital and resources to shore up the luxury brand later instead of spending extra money importing and pitching the Genesis and Equus to US consumers for a tiny share of the luxury market car sales, which will only further decline and provide very little money to flow into the new luxury brand coffers.

You are making no sense.

The Equus likely will not see much of an advertising push since it originally was never intended for the US market and the Genesis sales are doing fine (well, the sedan at least).

Lifting the image of Hyundai in the US is key in a successful launch of a premium brand and the Genesis sedan has played a large role changing the perception of Hyundai.

Agree. I think they can sell new sonata as Lexus ES if they have luxury division.

Right - b/c moving the Sonata from a 26k/monthly sales category (Camry) to a 3k/monthly category (ES) makes so much sense.

 

[bjjones]

Originally Posted by bjjones
It seems to me that your the one with retention issues. If Hyundai wanted to wait half a decade or longer to branch out into the luxury category, then they should have conserved all the necessary capital and resources to shore up the luxury brand later instead of spending extra money importing and pitching the Genesis and Equus to US consumers for a tiny share of the luxury market car sales, which will only further decline and provide very little money to flow into the new luxury brand coffers.

You are making no sense.

The Equus likely will not see much of an advertising push since it originally was never intended for the US market and the Genesis sales are doing fine (well, the sedan at least).

Lifting the image of Hyundai in the US is key in a successful launch of a premium brand and the Genesis sedan has played a large role changing the perception of Hyundai.

You are evidently too dim-witted to grasp that there are other variable costs that place Hyundai in the red even before the Equus launch in North America, such as import duty fees, loss of money per unit based on currency changes between South-Korean Won and the US dollar and the modification of the Korean version Equus into a U.S spec model. And keep in mind that even the smallest advertisement campaign to showcase the Equus to American consumers will still be quite a substantial investment. Furthermore, I already stated previously in past posts that the Genesis establishes the fact that Hyundai is capable of building a world class luxury automobile so the Equus once on US land, will do little to change this fact. Hyundai is simply squandering it's resources which could have better implemented to create and launch a luxury name brand.

 

[Coug]

Very interesting. All of you who are arguing that the Equus won't sell until Hyundai creates a luxury dealer network are saying exactly the same things that were said on this forum about the Genesis 15 months ago. There are old threads here that say exactly those same things about the Genesis -- "it won't sell from Hyundai dealers", "Mercedes and BMW owners won't give it a sniff because of the punky dealers"......etc.

I think you miss the point. As a Genesis owner I don't get special treatment at my Hyundai dealer, and you know what? I'm OK with it. I only spend one day there every few months, and the rest of the time I am enjoying this fabulous car that cost me $10,000 less than I would have spent for a comparable car at the hi-brow dealers.

The Genesis and Equus aren't targeted at the badge snobs. They are aimed at those who prize value. I guarantee you that if the Equus is equivalent to an Lexus LS, and sells for 10 or 15,000 less, there are people like me who will buy it because it is a great car for a much lower price than its competitors.

Would I like free bottled water whenever I bring my car in for service? Yeah, but I'm not about to pay an extra 10K or 15K for it. Hyundai is about value. And the word is out now..... they just created the 2009 North American Car of the Year. And it's affordable. Bring on the Equus. Hyundai has shown they can hit the bullseye. There are others like me out there that will buy it.

 

[PartsGuy]

I wanted to see it at Jenkins Hyundai, Leesburg Florida, as it should have come there yesterday. They don't have it. Great. Knew nothing about any schedule, when I told them that the schedule says it was to be at their dealership in Ocala the past two weeks, and now to them.

The car just left the showroom @ Jenkins of Leesburg the first part of this week. It was on its way to the auto show.

Rumor has it that the car is to be returned to Jenkins Leesburg for another one week visit soon after the Auto Show.

I can/will post when it returns to Jenkins of Leesburg and when it hits Jenkins of Ocala.