Luxury Customer Experience

[amartz]

It's curious that he thought that his downplaying of the total brake failure by some 1st Gen owners would have been missed by some of the old-timers. I have had both a 2010 as well as a 2012 Genesis, and I was about to post a similar follow-up.

And I thought it curious that a sweeping condemnation of the reliability of 1st Gen models vs. 2nd Gen models was apparently based on this one issue, that affected *some* 1st Gen models, while apparently ignoring many of the reliability issues 2nd Gen owners are facing, to jump to the conclusion that the 2nd Gen model is far more reliable than the 1st Gen model. I am certainly not saying that the reverse is true, but both have had their share of issues. We'll see how the 2nd Gen is holding up when they have as many years and miles as the current 1st gen.

 

[ksoze]

Maybe less, as Genesis buyers are known to drive a hard bargain.

Is this conjecture or based on some study, as I am willing to bet the accent and Elantra buyers are even tougher sales. With high volume models like the Sonata it may be even tougher with the amount of cars sitting and flowing through the lots.

 

[Focusin]

There are a couple of issues at play here. First, the dealership's don't make any more money selling Genesis than they do by selling one of the cheaper models. Maybe less, as Genesis buyers are known to drive a hard bargain.

This may be true, but while prices on the Genesis are being squeezed today, the expectation is that by 2020, the Genesis will have higher sales and therefore higher margins, so there is an incentive for dealerships to attract and retain Genesis customers today. Given my experience, I would not return to my dealership to purchase another Genesis (or any other vehicle for that matter).

The service writers don't make any more money dealing with the Genesis customer than with any other model. The fact that you're driving the top of the line doesn't matter to them and all. They have little incentive to treat the Genesis customer any differently than they treat the Accent buyer.

This is also true, at the employee level, but then so is it true in most service industries. It's up to the management/ownership to train and employ individuals who are going to attract and retain customers, not send them away.

The dealership management/owners however do have an incentive to treat the Genesis customer differently from the Accent owner. I already mentioned margins going forward but also, I would argue that on average the Genesis provides a higher number of service hours per vehicle when compared to an Accent. The cost of my oil change alone demonstrates this. Also, the myriad of performance and safety features means longer diagnostic and repair times.

Better service cost money. If you want something better than Hyundai service, be prepared to pay more than Hyundai pricing, or develop some workarounds to help insure minimal frustration.

This is where I fundamentally disagree. Hyundai Global has stated:

Genesis shoppers will be targeted with a separate customer-care approach.

I want that approach, I expect that approach and I'm arguing for that approach. I'm asking for nothing more than they are offering their "brand ambassadors".

 

[Aquineas]

And I thought it curious that a sweeping condemnation of the reliability of 1st Gen models vs. 2nd Gen models was apparently based on this one issue,

You didn't see me make any sweeping reliability generalizations, other than suggest there is no current issue that the 2nd generation is facing that's as bad as full-on brake failure. And I reiterate that point. Emphatically, actually.

that affected *some* 1st Gen models,

Isn't the nature of most issues such that some are affected, some aren't? For example, some 1st generation owners have front sensor problems (like my 2010 did), while most don't. Other 1st generation owners have had their auto-hold braking module replaced (like happened on my 2010), while others have not. Some 2012 V8 owners have needed new engines, some haven't. Thankfully mine didn't and I loved my 2012. A whole bunch of 1st generation owners have had their head-units fail, and unfortunately I had to have my 2nd gen's head-unit replaced. I haven't on the other hand had the dreadful delay when flooring the accelerator in an urgent acceleration situation on my 2015, but I did have it on both my 2010 and 2012. The only thing most of that proves is that Continental and Harmon Kardon's quality has not improved significantly.

while apparently ignoring many of the reliability issues 2nd Gen owners are facing, to jump to the conclusion that the 2nd Gen model is far more reliable than the 1st Gen model.

I'm a realist and a daily visitor to the site. I'm fully aware of some of the problems *some* 2nd gen owners are having (see what I did there?)

I am certainly not saying that the reverse is true, but both have had their share of issues. We'll see how the 2nd Gen is holding up when they have as many years and miles as the current 1st gen.

Finally, something we can agree on.

 

[jimb100]

Is this conjecture or based on some study, as I am willing to bet the accent and Elantra buyers are even tougher sales. With high volume models like the Sonata it may be even tougher with the amount of cars sitting and flowing through the lots.

You'd lose your money. Having worked in a dealership and having bought my Genesis from a personal friend and the sales manager I do have a little insight.

Typically buyers of cheaper cars are less educated and less experienced. They typically pay more for the car and for financing.

 

[jimb100]

This may be true, but while prices on the Genesis are being squeezed today, the expectation is that by 2020, the Genesis will have higher sales and therefore higher margins, so there is an incentive for dealerships to attract and retain Genesis customers today. Given my experience, I would not return to my dealership to purchase another Genesis (or any other vehicle for that matter).


This is also true, at the employee level, but then so is it true in most service industries. It's up to the management/ownership to train and employ individuals who are going to attract and retain customers, not send them away.

The dealership management/owners however do have an incentive to treat the Genesis customer differently from the Accent owner. I already mentioned margins going forward but also, I would argue that on average the Genesis provides a higher number of service hours per vehicle when compared to an Accent. The cost of my oil change alone demonstrates this. Also, the myriad of performance and safety features means longer diagnostic and repair times.




This is where I fundamentally disagree. Hyundai Global has stated:



I want that approach, I expect that approach and I'm arguing for that approach. I'm asking for nothing more than they are offering their "brand ambassadors".

I guess you might be right, in 2020. But I don't think so. Higher volumes mean higher profits? MB, Audi, BMW and Lexus might disagree. They aren't pushing for higher volume so they can make more money. Exclusivity would seem to equal higher profits. Look at sales figures in another thread.

You can train employees all you want. You won't get them to perform until you pay them more and they are afraid of losing their jobs.

You are basing this on the price of an oil change???

Don't believe everything you hear from the corporate marketing shills.

 

[Focusin]

I guess you might be right, in 2020. But I don't think so. Higher volumes mean higher profits? MB, Audi, BMW and Lexus might disagree. They aren't pushing for higher volume so they can make more money. Exclusivity would seem to equal higher profits. Look at sales figures in another thread.

I'm not following you here (and that's probably my fault). MB, Audi, BMW and Lexus aren't pushing for higher volume because they already have volume at a comfortable price point, Genesis doesn't. Or are you suggesting that the Genesis recent surge in sales are reflective of increased popularity because I don't know what it's like in the US but here the Genesis is heavily discounted. Dumping cars at cost or loss is not a good economic model for success.

Perhaps sales are different in the States, I don't know, but as I stated in the disclaimer, this is based on Canadian experience, so your mileage may vary.

You can train employees all you want. You won't get them to perform until you pay them more and they are afraid of losing their jobs.

Which is precisely the motivation for this entire thread. As (re)stated 6 pages ago...5 pages ago...4 pages ago:

We'd all like a Lexus experience from Hyundai and I'm using this opportunity with the dealership and corporate to demonstrate that they are severely lacking in that area.

That's where Hyundai Corp comes in, but if they're not prepared to hold their dealerships to a certain standard, then they can never hope to bridge the gap between econo and luxury no matter what fancy names they give their vehicles.

To be clear, a good customer experience is not just beneficial for the Genesis brand, it helps drive sales across all models. That's why I find it so baffling that Hyundai continues to suffer customer experience issues this far into their luxury market foray. They should have nailed this down by now and yet it seems they haven't even tackled it at the corporate level, let alone the dealership.

This is why I've posted my experience at this time. While you're correct there may be limits as to what Hyundai Corp can and can't do, they do have control over who is going to carry their brand forward.

You are basing this on the price of an oil change???

Is that all I wrote because I could swear I wrote more than that lol.

Don't believe everything you hear from the corporate marketing shills.

Thanks for the advice but I've never found you to be consistent in your comments so I'm not overly confident that you believe most of what you're saying...sorry.

 

[Mark_888]

You can train employees all you want. You won't get them to perform until you pay them more and they are afraid of losing their jobs.

I would agree, but would even go beyond that. In most cases you won't get them to preform until you replace them with better quality people who deserve the higher pay they get.

 

[Mark_888]

You didn't see me make any sweeping reliability generalizations, other than suggest there is no current issue that the 2nd generation is facing that's as bad as full-on brake failure. And I reiterate that point. Emphatically, actually.

I actually don't blame Hyundai for the existence of the HECU valve problems that caused brake failure on the early G1 versions. The fault was with Continental who supplied the HECU anti-locking brake module.

I do have a major complaint with Hyundai in that they did not replace the affected HECU's that have a defective design, and only replaced the brake fluid and did an inspection of the HECU. There is no way to determine if valve corrosion has already occurred just by a visual inspection of the exterior of an HECU, since the valves are internal to the unit. Many members have reported brake failure some time after the brake fluid was replaced.

Regarding the G2, I do read a troubling number of posts about mildew/fungus in the A/C, vibration, road noise, moonroof problems, etc, that make me wonder about buying another Genesis any time soon. I don't think Hyundai can blame a vendor for most of those problems.

 

[Midnightsun]

I actually don't blame Hyundai for the existence of the HECU valve problems that caused brake failure on the early G1 versions. The fault was with Continental who supplied the HECU anti-locking brake module.

I do have a major complaint with Hyundai in that they did not replace the affected HECU's that have a defective design, and only replaced the brake fluid and did an inspection of the HECU. There is no way to determine if valve corrosion has already occurred just by a visual inspection of the exterior of an HECU, since the valves are internal to the unit. Many members have reported brake failure some time after the brake fluid was replaced.

Regarding the G2, I do read a troubling number of posts about mildew/fungus in the A/C, vibration, road noise, moonroof problems, etc, that make me wonder about buying another Genesis any time soon. I don't think Hyundai can blame a vendor for most of those problems.

Then you will need to get a horse and carriage as I doubt there is any car out there with no issues or even as few as the G2 Genesis. Only reason you here about "some" is the fact that this is a forum otherwise for the minute amount happening it would be unheard of. The only real complaint I have with mine is voice recognition but it seems version 9.5 of the software takes care of this.

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[ksoze]

Then you will need to get a horse and carriage as I doubt there is any car out there with no issues or even as few as the G2 Genesis. Only reason you here about "some" is the fact that this is a forum otherwise for the minute amount happening it would be unheard of. The only real complaint I have with mine is voice recognition but it seems version 9.5 of the software takes care of this.

Agreed. I think there are some who want or need to keep their current vehicle and look for nuggets of confirmation not to take the plunge. Nothing wrong with that, but car forums are a good source to find reasons to buy as well as reasons not to buy. It's all how you want to see it.

 

[Mark_888]

Then you will need to get a horse and carriage as I doubt there is any car out there with no issues or even as few as the G2 Genesis. Only reason you here about "some" is the fact that this is a forum otherwise for the minute amount happening it would be unheard of. The only real complaint I have with mine is voice recognition but it seems version 9.5 of the software takes care of this.

My experience with Toyota and Honda products is different. Also, I am satisfied with the reliability of my G1 Genesis, much more so than the problems reported with the G2 (although many of the G2 problems are "nagging" type of problems, and not failures of the major systems in the car like the engine or transmission).

But I am not so concerned about problems that can be fixed, such as replacing a head unit, as I am about problems that appear to be very tricky and no clear solution is available, such as the mold/mildew or vibration problems.

Regarding the claim that the only reason we hear about the problems is because this is a forum where problems are discussed, may have "some" merit, but given the large number of very similar complaints about mold/mildew, vibrations, etc, I believe that on balance that these are pervasive problems and not just isolated ones.

 

[Mark_888]

Agreed. I think there are some who want or need to keep their current vehicle and look for nuggets of confirmation not to take the plunge. Nothing wrong with that, but car forums are a good source to find reasons to buy as well as reasons not to buy. It's all how you want to see it.

For every one person who needs or wants to keep their current car, and justifies their unwillingness to pull the trigger on a new car based on the complaints of new ones in this forum, there are ten others who have already pulled the trigger on a new one and are ignoring the complaints (and problems with their own new car) to justify a decision they have already made and a decision that cannot be undone (cognitive dissonance).

 

[ksoze]

For every one person who needs or wants to keep their current car, and justifies their unwillingness to pull the trigger on a new car based on the complaints of new ones in this forum, there are ten others who have already pulled the trigger on a new one and are ignoring the complaints (and problems with their own new car) to justify a decision they have already made and a decision that cannot be undone (cognitive dissonance).

Not sure of that extreme split, but do not believe there are that many here ignoring complaints to justify the purchase. Those who have complaints have a forum here to do so and freely do. The complaint ratio here seems low to normal for a car forum board and when you factor in the value of the car and it's selling prices, some small nits are likely tolerable. The car is not perfect, but for a first year model has been stellar for me. I do have some very minor road noise from the drivers side window that I only notice because the car is so damn quite. I have no vibration or other mechanical issues and will be willing to whine when I do have an issue.

If you visit this forum to gauge your willingness to upgrade, then expect to see what you look for. If there were zero issues reported, would you buy tomorrow or assume that something is not right?

 

[Mark_888]

Not sure of that extreme split, but do not believe there are that many here ignoring complaints to justify the purchase. Those who have complaints have a forum here to do so and freely do. The complaint ratio here seems low to normal for a car forum board and when you factor in the value of the car and it's selling prices, some small nits are likely tolerable. The car is not perfect, but for a first year model has been stellar for me. I do have some very minor road noise from the drivers side window that I only notice because the car is so damn quite. I have no vibration or other mechanical issues and will be willing to whine when I do have an issue.

If you visit this forum to gauge your willingness to upgrade, then expect to see what you look for. If there were zero issues reported, would you buy tomorrow or assume that something is not right?

I am not looking for a perfect car. However, maybe due to my particular circumstances, there is no chance I would buy a car that I thought had mildew/fungus problems. Hopefully they will get it fixed.

Also, I don't view the G2 as an "upgrade." I buy a new car when my old one needs to be replaced. I expect all new models to be better than the previous ones, just due to the nature of constantly improving products and technology. These days, I only drive 2-3 days per week, less than 5,000 miles per year, so my G1 is still in excellent condition.

 

[ksoze]

I am not looking for a perfect car. However, maybe due to my particular circumstances, there is no chance I would buy a car that I thought had mildew/fungus problems. Hopefully they will get it fixed.

Also, I don't view the G2 as an "upgrade." I buy a new car when my old one needs to be replaced. I expect all new models to be better than the previous ones, just due to the nature of constantly improving products and technology. These days, I only drive 2-3 days per week, less than 5,000 miles per year, so my G1 is still in excellent condition.

The G2 is an updated model for which virtually the only carry over is the engine and trans and is clearly an upgrade, from tech to seating to drive. Sounds like your current car is almost like new and you only buy when it needs to be replaced, so the G2 makes no sense for you, issue plagued or perfect.

I also would not buy a car with a mildew/fungus. Glad I didn't when I bought the new Genesis

 

[Mark_888]

The G2 is an updated model for which virtually the only carry over is the engine and trans and is clearly an upgrade, from tech to seating to drive. Sounds like your current car is almost like new and you only buy when it needs to be replaced, so the G2 makes no sense for you, issue plagued or perfect.

I also would not buy a car with a mildew/fungus. Glad I didn't when I bought the new Genesis

Of course the G2 is better in almost every way than G1. If it wasn't, all the designers and engineers should be fired.

 

[jimb100]

I'm not following you here (and that's probably my fault). MB, Audi, BMW and Lexus aren't pushing for higher volume because they already have volume at a comfortable price point, Genesis doesn't. Or are you suggesting that the Genesis recent surge in sales are reflective of increased popularity because I don't know what it's like in the US but here the Genesis is heavily discounted. Dumping cars at cost or loss is not a good economic model for success.

Perhaps sales are different in the States, I don't know, but as I stated in the disclaimer, this is based on Canadian experience, so your mileage may vary.




Which is precisely the motivation for this entire thread. As (re)stated 6 pages ago...5 pages ago...4 pages ago:












Is that all I wrote because I could swear I wrote more than that lol.




Thanks for the advice but I've never found you to be consistent in your comments so I'm not overly confident that you believe most of what you're saying...sorry.

No car sells because it's cheaper. You can probably still find a new Yugo for $100. The point is, MB didn't need to get to 3000 E Class a month to make money. I'm sure they'd like to sell 4000 a month at the same margins, but they've determined that doing what's necessary to sell 4000 a month wouldn't result in the same margins.

That may not be all you wrote but I believe its all you said.

I'm surprised you've hung on my every word to know if I'm consistent or not. Nevertheless, you can be supremely confident that I believe what I'm saying and have data or logic to back up my position. If you are unsure, quote a comment and I'll reassure you.

But more to the point, I've never felt your comments were especially well thought out or supported by anything more than your personal impressions. And that's OK, it is the internet, after all. But credibility requires more.

 

[Focusin]

No car sells because it's cheaper. You can probably still find a new Yugo for $100. The point is, MB didn't need to get to 3000 E Class a month to make money. I'm sure they'd like to sell 4000 a month at the same margins, but they've determined that doing what's necessary to sell 4000 a month wouldn't result in the same margins.

That may not be all you wrote but I believe its all you said.

I'm surprised you've hung on my every word to know if I'm consistent or not. Nevertheless, you can be supremely confident that I believe what I'm saying and have data or logic to back up my position. If you are unsure, quote a comment and I'll reassure you.

But more to the point, I've never felt your comments were especially well thought out or supported by anything more than your personal impressions. And that's OK, it is the internet, after all. But credibility requires more.

That's terrific, thanks for visiting. Goodbye now.

 

[Midnightsun]

My experience with Toyota and Honda products is different. Also, I am satisfied with the reliability of my G1 Genesis, much more so than the problems reported with the G2 (although many of the G2 problems are "nagging" type of problems, and not failures of the major systems in the car like the engine or transmission).

But I am not so concerned about problems that can be fixed, such as replacing a head unit, as I am about problems that appear to be very tricky and no clear solution is available, such as the mold/mildew or vibration problems.

Regarding the claim that the only reason we hear about the problems is because this is a forum where problems are discussed, may have "some" merit, but given the large number of very similar complaints about mold/mildew, vibrations, etc, I believe that on balance that these are pervasive problems and not just isolated ones.

These issues seem to be with a few individuals unlike Toyota where there is a class action law suit. Just a little searching will bring up stuff you did not even know was there. http://topclassactions.com/lawsuit-...s-action-over-moldy-smell-in-camry-ac-system/

Vibration is mostly form flat spotting which I never really experienced. I did have some vibration issues however this was due to poor balancing and once done properly nada. Found out the hard way balancing machines do need to be calibrated quite often. Do not assume that idk it was just balanced it was done correctly or should I say the machine read correctly. All in al the Gen2 is an extremely solid package. Not going to discount the Gen 1 but it was there first attempt and they learned quite bit from their mistakes which is evident on the Gen2.