New Luxury SUV's from Rolls Royce and Aston Martin

[Mark_888]

Why don't you just admit that you've been proven wrong once again instead of being all butt-hurt and coming up w/ even more ridiculous things to argue about?

Does BMW presently have a MB GLS competitor? No.

And it's the automotive press that has been using terms like proper and true 3-row when it comes to the X7.

BMW's first proper three-row SUV strikes an excellent balance between comfort and engagement.

2019 BMW X7 Prototype first drive: Super-sized split personality

2019 BMW X7 Prototype Review: BMW’s First True Three-Row SUV

2019 BMW X7 Prototype Review: BMW’s First True Three-Row SUV - Motor Trend

I didn't say anything about those things you mentioned above, so I have nothing to admit to in regard to being wrong about them. I don't know why you even brought up the subjects above, because they have nothing to do with the discussion in this thread, nor anything to do with what I posted.

I am not going to even read the rest of the stuff you are complaining about.

 

[YEH]

^ Well, then why all the fuss over the term proper?

And no need to read, can just watch videos.

But you won't bother since you know they prove you wrong (once again).

Man, you really have an issue when it comes to recognizing, much less admitting that you are wrong.

 

[Mark_888]

^ Well, then why all the fuss over the term proper?

And no need to read, can just watch videos.

But you won't bother since you know they prove you wrong (once again).

Man, you really have an issue when it comes to recognizing, much less admitting that you are wrong.

Do you really think I was serouis about "The Amy Vanderbilt Complete Book of Etiquette"?

Do you think anyone here cares about what you, or anyone else thinks about whether BMW has a "proper" 3-row SUV, or think that is in anyway relevant to this discussion? If so, you have gone off the deep-end.

I said that there are NO HYUNDAI LOGOS of any kind on the 2009-2016 Genesis Sedan sold in Korea, and I am correct about that, and will not retract that. Yes, the car was made by Hyundai Motor Corporation in Korea, as is the 2017-2018 G80 and G90 vehicles sold in the USA (also without any Hyundai logo on them). So in that sense they are all Hyundai's, but they were not sold under the Hyundai brand name in Korea.

The only exception would be some tiny Hyundai markings on some MOBIS parts.

 

[ifonline]

It's ok to be wrong. What's not ok is constantly moving the goal post and then crapping all over threads about how you are not wrong. At first I thought that you were being unfairly singled out by a select few, and perhaps that's how this all started, but now it's become obvious at least to me that so many interesting threads crumble apart because you get involved, throw out comments as facts that are challenged, and then proceed to argue about it.

It would be one thing if it was uncommon, but it's not so it's frustrating and really devalues this site. It would be nice to be able to stop by as part of my morning routine and catch up on Genesis news, comments, complaints, etc. without having to put on my crap-safe waders just to do it.

 

[EdP]

Do you really think I was serouis about "The Amy Vanderbilt Complete Book of Etiquette"?

Of course, it is Emily Post that wrote extensively about automotive etiquette.
By Motor to the Golden Gate – Emily Post – 1915 | The Old Motor
Ms. Manners forbids me to make further comments.

 

[Mark_888]

It's ok to be wrong. What's not ok is constantly moving the goal post and then crapping all over threads about how you are not wrong. At first I thought that you were being unfairly singled out by a select few, and perhaps that's how this all started, but now it's become obvious at least to me that so many interesting threads crumble apart because you get involved, throw out comments as facts that are challenged, and then proceed to argue about it.

It would be one thing if it was uncommon, but it's not so it's frustrating and really devalues this site. It would be nice to be able to stop by as part of my morning routine and catch up on Genesis news, comments, complaints, etc. without having to put on my crap-safe waders just to do it.

I think it is pretty clear to most people when my comments are opinions, as opposed to facts. Most of the facts or opinions I am challenged on by YEH have nothing to do with anything I said, and are therefore non sequitur arguments.

For example he claims I said all kinds of things about BMW and MB SUV's, that I never said and have nothing to do with this discussion. Then he attempts to prove me wrong about those things. I don't care about them, because I never said them and they are irrelevant. I made a joke about his claim that BMW has a proper 3-row SUV, and he then attempts to prove me wrong about a joke.

I believe that I admit I am wrong whenever that occurs. If not, let me know and be specific. It's hard to have an intelligent conversation without specifics.

But I am not going to backtrack on something I believe to be true, and that is there have never been any Hyundai Logos on the Korean version of the Genesis since it was introduced in 2008. Back in 2009, I also listened to former HMA CEO John Krafcik talk (in a chat session with 20 other members of the Hyundai Think Tank) about why the Genesis sedans (sold as Genesis BH380 and BH460 in Korea with no Hyundai logos) were imported to the USA as a Hyundai with Hyundai logos on them. Krafcik said they were being sold as a Hyundai in the USA to "build to Hyundai brand image". HMA was concerned that back in 2008 the majority of Camry and Accord buyers never even looked at a Sonata, and they were trying to improve the brand image of Hyundai in the USA. That's obviously not a problem in Korea.

In any case, this whole idea of whether the 2009-2016 Genesis in Korea was "marketed" as a Hyundai, or as a Genesis, is not clear cut anyway, because the concept of brand in Korea is not the same as in the USA. At this point, I cannot even remember why this issue of brand is even important to YEH or anyone else. The point of this thread (one of the relatively few I started in my 9 years on this forum) was that Genesis Motors needs to get some SUV's for separate Genesis dealerships to survive. I think it is interesting and relevant that so many other luxury brands have beat Genesis to the market with an SUV. That is my opinion.

If you think I am wrong about this or something else, let's discuss in an intelligent and thoughtful manner. Yes, there are very specific reasons why a few people constantly pick on me, but I don't want to get into that.

Also, please next time quote who you are responding to, so we know for sure (since you didn't mention my name). Sometimes another post could sneak before yours and it gets confusing.

But if you are tired of my posts, you can block them somewhere in your forum settings.

 

[YEH]

Do you really think I was serouis about "The Amy Vanderbilt Complete Book of Etiquette"?

You were serious about my having used the term proper.

I said that there are NO HYUNDAI LOGOS of any kind on the 2009-2016 Genesis Sedan sold in Korea, and I am correct about that, and will not retract that. Yes, the car was made by Hyundai Motor Corporation in Korea, as is the 2017-2018 G80 and G90 vehicles sold in the USA (also without any Hyundai logo on them). So in that sense they are all Hyundai's, but they were not sold under the Hyundai brand name in Korea.

The only exception would be some tiny Hyundai markings on some MOBIS parts.

And yet, you kept using that as the basis of your erroneous claim that the Genesis brand was started in 2008 in Korea and that the Genesis sedan wasn't sold as a Hyundai.

And are you still seriously claiming that the 1G and 2G Genesis sedans weren't sold as a Hyundai even tho Korean auto journalists keep referring to those models as the Hyundai Genesis? lol (You really are something.)

They also refer to the Equus as the Hyundai Equus; but w/ the G90, they refer to it as the Genesis G90 and not the Hyundai G90.

And actually, you're wrong (once again) about there being no Hyundai logos on the 1G and 2G Genesis sedan - as there is a Hyundai logo on the engine cover.

Once the Genesis brand was launched in Korea and the 2G Genesis sedan was renamed the G80, the Hyundai logo on the engine cover was replaced by the winged Genesis badge.

Once again (since you are pretty obtuse when it comes to grasping things) - Korean auto journalists refer to the 1G and 2G Genesis sedans as the Hyundai Genesis and the Equus as the Hyundai Equus.

Even the Vice Chairman of Hyundai and heir to the Hyundai conglomerate refers to them as the Hyundai Genesis and upon the launch of the Genesis brand in Korea (in 2016) stated that the (Hyundai) product Genesis will be reborn as the brand Genesis.

 

[Mark_888]

You were serious about my having used the term proper.

You have got problems.

I don't understand the significance of the other stuff (which we disagree about). Lincoln is a division of Ford Motor Company. Some Lexus vehicles are sold as a Toyota in Japan. So what?

Genesis does not have any SUV's, which is the bottom line.

 

[YEH]

^ LOL!

I'm the one w/ problems?

You're the one who keeps insisting that Genesis was already a separate brand in Korea (back in 2008) despite all the evidence to the contrary, including Koreans referring to the 1G/2G Genesis sedan as the Hyundai Genesis.

And putting aside the fact that you were wrong (again) about there not being a Hyundai badge on the Genesis (there's one on the engine cover which was replaced by the winged Genesis logo after the Genesis brand was launched in Korea and the Genesis sedan was renamed the G80), just b/c a particular model doesn't have corporate badging doesn't mean that it isn't of that brand.

A few examples.

Mustang

In lieu of the Blue Oval, has the pony emblem up front (and a GT badge at the rear for the GT) and on the steering wheel cover.

The Bullit has no badge up front and a Bullit badge at the rear.

The Shelby has a Shelby badge at the front and rear.

But despite no Blue Oval, most people know it's a Ford.

Ford did the same thing w/ the Thunderbird - getting the winged Thunderbird emblem in lieu of the Blue Oval up front and at the rear.

Same thing for the Corvette - has its own Corvette badge instead of the Chevy bow-tie.

But according to you, b/c they are sans corporate badging, they musn't be Fords or a Chevy.

 

[Mark_888]

And putting aside the fact that you were wrong (again) about there not being a Hyundai badge on the Genesis (there's one on the engine cover which was replaced by the winged Genesis logo after the Genesis brand was launched in Korea.

There were discussion on this forum about 6 year ago of people in the US who wanted to order the Korean engine cover tp re[;ace the flying H. Maybe I am wrong, but based on that, I don't your above statement is correct.

Anyway, my statement about brands has to do with the following:

There were two completely different cars sold in Korea. If there was only one car, like for the Corvette, then I would not have much of argument.

BH model (entry level luxury sedan)

• Genesis BH330 (3.3L V6 sedan - not imported to USA)
• Genesis BH380 (3.8L V6 sedan)
• Genesis BH460 4.6L (4.6 V8 sedan)

BK Model (a totally different sport coupe that had a starting MSRP of $23K in the USA.

• Genesis BK380 GT (3.8L V6 coupe) I think there was a plain BK380 also, but not sure.
• (not sure what the 2.0L Turbo was called and cant find a pic)
  

Even though there were no Hyundai names or logos on the Genesis sedan in Korea, there were Flying H's on the coupe.

It is obviously correct that the Genesis "brand" in Korea from 2009-2016 was not a "full fledged brand" like they are doing now, but Korean (and some Japanese) automakers don't always have completely separate brands in their home country (Many Lexus models have been sold as a Toyota in Japan). Until Hyundai Motor Korea hired a bunch of European executives to manage the Genesis brand, Koreans were not ashamed of the fact that Genesis was a Hyundai.

Even in the USA, in order to sell the Equus and eventually the 2015-2016 Genesis Sedan, HMA limited sales of those two models to less than one-half of the existing US dealers, and made them (or tried to make them) have at least a separate area of their showroom for Genesis Sedan and Equus. Some dealers created a completely separate showroom if they enough space to build one. This goes back to 2011 with the introduction of the Equus.

I can understand if not everyone agrees with me that Hyundai Motor Korea gave the 2009-2016 Genesis Sedan "some kind" separate status in Korea (apart from the other Hyundai branded vehicles). But my argument is that separate status in Korea is what Hyundai Motor America tried to "undo" with Hyundai logos replacing the wings, in order to help "build the Hyundai brand" image in the USA. So the fact that the same car had different brand logos on them in two different countries, does make it somewhat of a grey area IMO, and has been confusing over the years.

But so what? How does that change the fact that they decided in 2016 to create a full-fledged separate Genesis brand (starting with the 2017 models) without a SUV to sell (apparently not until at least the 2019 or 2020 model year)? It doesn't change the fact that virtually every other luxury manufacturers (that build sedans, not just race cars) has (or will shortly) beat Genesis to the market with an SUV, including Rolls Royce. How did that happen? IMO, it shows lack of "proper" foresight and planning on the part of Hyundai Motor and its rollout of Genesis brand in the US.

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[YEH]

You really are something.

Like I had posted prior, in this video, not only does the older Hyundai Genesis (blue) model have the Hyundai logo on the engine cover, the Korean reviewer constantly refers to it as the Hyundai Genesis and the G80 (grey) as the Genesis G80 (which has the winged Genesis on the engine cover).

But you just refuse to look/read anything that blows holes thru your erroneous claims.

Heck, no need to even watch any of the videos; just look at the English graphics

And the Genesis coupe has Hyundai badges all around.

Again, note the English (Hyundai Genesis coupe).


Even the special edition Prada version is still a Hyundai.

 

[Mark_888]

You really are something.

Like I had posted prior, in this video, not only does the older Hyundai Genesis (blue) model have the Hyundai logo on the engine cover, the Korean reviewer constantly refers to it as the Hyundai Genesis and the G80 (grey) as the Genesis G80 (which has the winged Genesis on the engine cover).

But you just refuse to look/read anything that blows holes thru your erroneous claims.

And the Genesis coupe has Hyundai badges all around.

I never denied that the Genesis Coupe has Hyundai badges all over the car. The coupe was an not an entry level luxury car (as the sedan was), the coupe was not priced anywhere near the Genesis Sedan (USA prices for the coupe started at $23K). Further, the coupe did not share the same platform as the sedan and had very little in common with the sedan other than the name.

I don't believe it is correct that the Korean Genesis sedan (sold in Korea) had wings on the engine cover, but I could be wrong. The reason I say that is I specifically recall members of this forum talking about buying the Korean engine cover to replace their flying H.

But all of the above are beside the point.

The history of this mess is that Hyundai wanted to move in the direction of creating a new Luxury brand back about 2004-2005 (that is rough estimate). Hyundai Motor starting designing and building the Genesis Sedan back then that came to market in 2008 as a 2009 model (maybe as a 2008 model in Korea, not sure). A few years later, the started working on the Equus, which was built on a stretched Genesis sedan platform (with more luxury features), that was released in the US as a 2011 model (probably earlier in Korea).

Whether or not there was going to be a completely separate brand in Korea is more complicated. It's not that important in Korea (compared to the USA) because the Hyundai brand has very good reputation in Korea, and Koreans are very loyal to their own products (as are the Japanese). I have mentioned multiple times, there are Lexus models that have been sold in Japan as a Toyota, because the Japanese are very proud of the Toyota brand. But for the USA, it is more important to have a separate brand identity for a luxury line of autos. That is why all your comments about how the Genesis is marketed in Korea is irrelevant, just as how Toyota markets Lexus models in Japan as a Toyota brand, is irrelevant to the USA market.

In support of the idea that the Genesis would be part of a separate brand, the original Genesis sedan in Korea had no Hyundai logos on it all. That was not true of the Coupe, because it was never intended to be a part of the luxury brand (for obvious reasons).

But something happened in 2008 that changed their plans for a new luxury Hyundai brand in the USA. The 2008 Financial Crisis (aka Great Recession). The idea of getting 150 or so investors to put up $10 million to open new dealerships (manufacturers are not allowed to own dealerships in the USA) was nil in the USA in 2008 and 2009, because the credit market dried up, and for other obvious reasons. So when the Genesis sedan (and later Equus) came to the USA, they decided that they could only sell them at existing Hyundai dealers. Hyundai Motor America put Hyundai logos on them (unlike the ones sold in Korea before the financial crisis).

So I am saying that it was always the intention to eventually create a luxury Hyundai brand using the Genesis sedan and Equus a long time ago. It was not a new idea in 2015 when Genesis Motors was announced. There were many discussions on this forum back in 2009 as to whether they should have brought the Genesis sedan to the US as a Hyundai, or if they should have started the luxury brand back then, but everyone agreed that it would eventually happen, and it was just delayed by the 2008 Financial Crisis.

As is often the case, you claim to post a whole string of facts, many of which are irrelevant to the subject being discussed. The bottom line is you are claiming that Hyundai first announced a new luxury brand in 2016 (starting with 2017 models in the USA), and I am saying that is "technically true" about the announcement, but the idea has been in the works for many years, and got postponed by the Great Recession starting in 2008, and they just had to wait until the timing was right to do it.

 

[YEH]

I never denied that the Genesis Coupe has Hyundai badges all over the car. The coupe was an not an entry level luxury car (as the sedan was), the coupe was not priced anywhere near the Genesis Sedan (USA prices for the coupe started at $23K). Further, the coupe did not share the same platform as the sedan and had very little in common with the sedan other than the name.

I don't believe it is correct that the Korean Genesis sedan (sold in Korea) had wings on the engine cover, but I could be wrong. The reason I say that is I specifically recall members of this forum talking about buying the Korean engine cover to replace their flying H.

But all of the above are beside the point.

Sorry - you don't get to weasel out of this like you usually do.

You're the one who bought up the Genesis Coupe in the discussion over whether the Genesis brand existed in Korea upon the launch of the 1G Genesis sedan; and the fact that it has Hyundai badges totally debunks your claim (so it's hardly besides the point).

The Genesis sedan having had a Hyundai logo on the engjne cover and Genesis sedan commercials ending w/ a Hyundai logo would be enough for most, but not surprisingly, not enough for someone as stubborn as you.

But Koreans refer to the 1G and 2G Genesis sedan (before it was renamed the G80) as the Hyundai Genesis (so what, you know more about whether the Genesis was or wasn't a Hyundai model than Koreans?) and even the heir to the Hyundai conglomerate stated in 2016 that he assigned another role to Genesis (the model), that the product Genesis will be re-born into the Genesis brand.

If the Genesis brand had already existed, why was there a need to launch it in Korea in 2016?

And the 1st Genesis (brand) model in Korea was the EQ900, not the G80 (or Genesis sedan).

As for the rest of your post - a rather poor attempt at trying to change the goal posts.

Most posters on GO already know that it was always Hyundais intent to launch a separate lux brand and that the Great Recession had a role in convincing Hyundai not to do so in the US at the time.

You certainly don't have to tell me (as I was the one who was pointing out all those things back in the day, along w/ stating why it was prudent for them to not have launched a separate brand and dealer network at the time (despite some posters to the contrary).

All that stuff (quite a treatise you wrote there - to little avail) has no bearing on the fact that the Genesis brand didn't exist in Korea until 2016 or that the Genesis sedan was and known to be a Hyundai model by Koreans.

 

[Mark_888]

Most posters on GO already know that it was always Hyundais intent to launch a separate lux brand and that the Great Recession had a role in convincing Hyundai not to do so in the US at the time.

I am glad you have finally agreed with me.

That explains why the Genesis sedan and Equus don't have any Hyundai logos on them. The Genesis Coupe was never meant to be in a luxury division so it had Hyundai logos all over it. As I said, I would like to see some proof about the Genesis Sedan engine cover logos, because some members of this forum said they were considering getting the Korean version with the wings logo (for their 1G sedans.

Hyundai Motor America could have imported the Genesis Sedan and Equus as a separate luxury brand to be sold at existing Hyundai dealers (like they eventually did in 2016 (starting with 2017 model year), but they decided to rebrand both of them as a Hyundai to try and improve the Hyundai brand image in the USA (that's what former HMA CEO John Krafcik told me). As we all know, this kicked off a substantial black-market in Genesis wings imported from Korea, and also Equus badging from Korea.

Krafcik was fired at the end of 2013. I don't know if his decisions about the Genesis and Equus branding had anything to do with that, but I never heard any explanation for his firing.

 

[YEH]

I am glad you have finally agreed with me.

Um, I was the one who was saying that from the very start (when there were posters here who argued that Hyundai should have launched a separate brand/sales channel w/ the launch of the Genesis sedan).

So, if anything, you're agreeing w/ me, but that still doesn't change the fact that the Genesis and Equus are Hyundai models in Korea.

As for the Equus, it always had its own special badging going back to the 1G model that was joint-developed w/ Mitsu.

But the 1G Equus still is a Hyundai.

 

[Mark_888]

Um, I was the one who was saying that from the very start (when there were posters here who argued that Hyundai should have launched a separate brand/sales channel).

So, if anything, you're agreeing w/ me, but that doesn't change the fact that the Genesis and Equus are Hyundai models in Korea.

Like I said before, Lexus models were sold as Toyotas in Japan until 2005. The Lexus brand started in the USA in 1989.

So the fact they call them Hyundai's in Korea (they were manufactured by Hyundai Motor as is the case for Genesis Motors vehicles), is less important than the fact that they have no Hyundai logos anywhere on them (Korean versions).

 

[YEH]

^ Why do you keep bring up stuff as if I don't know it?

Yeah, Lexus models were sold in Japan as Toyotas until the Lexus brand was launched there in 1995.

So what?

They had Toyota logos on them (and even Toyota spelled out).

What bearing does that have on the Genesis and Equus?

 

[Mark_888]

They had Toyota logos on them (and even Toyota spelled out).

What bearing does that have on the Genesis and Equus?

Because the Japanese are very proud of Toyota, and the Koreans are very proud of Hyundai. The Korean's wanted everyone to know that the Genesis and Equus were made by Hyundai, even though they had no Hyundai logos on them. In the new Genesis Motors, the idea is to hide that association as much as possible.

So it is no surprise that the Korean Genesis Sedan was called the Hyundai Genesis Sedan in Korea, even though there were no Hyundai logos anywhere on the car. Same for Equus.

Now they hired some European guys to run Genesis Motors, and they are trying to completely separate Genesis from Hyundai Motor as much as they can,

 

[YEH]

^ No.

One case is Toyota having launched a series of vehicles under the Toyota brand w/ the Toyota emblems and then changing the brand (which is akin to what Hyundai is doing here).

The case of the Genesis and Equus is synonymous (as I have stated numerous times now) w/ that of the Toyota Century and Toyota Crown (series).

As I have stated (too many times now), that the Genesis and Equus (as are the Crown and Century) are their own sub-brands w/ their own distinct badging, but they are still Hyundais (and in the case of the Crown/Century - Toyotas).

That doesn't equate to them each being their own brands.

And despite the Lexus brand having launched in Japan, the RX still was sold there as a Toyota for years thereafter until 2013 (Toyota Harrier); the RX was actually a rebadged Harrier.

Sometimes it had the Toyota emblem, other times, its own special badging.

Either way, it's still a Toyota.

My goodness, I know grade-schoolers who would have gotten this by now.