Number of Genesis sold in USA in 2017 and 2018

[turnne]

What good are all those features if someone doesn't care about them? Each person has to decide for themselves what features they want or need, and not just assume that because they are available that they are needed or wanted.

Self closing doors are a harbinger of the decline of Western Civilization, or a sign of a poorly built car that has doors that don't close easily (take you pick).

You are right..but since every car in the 100K price class( or higher) has several common features I assume that buyer wants them..??

Also to your point....something like a Toyota Camry is a very good car in every way
Solid reliability, relatively simple and holds value

My guess is on the self closing doors is Mercedes thought the doors of the 90's 140 chassis car were heavy and didn't want anyone to have to work to slam them...

or...in my case..I had a narrow garage and it made the heavy doors easy to use when I didnt have the extra space. This would also be a plus with the new parking pilot if you have to get into a narrow parking space

You should really look at a 140 chassis S class Mercedes( 1992-1999) and see how heavy the doors were and you would understand what I mean

Warren

 

[Mark_888]

You are right..but since every car in the 100K price class( or higher) has several common features I assume that buyer wants them..??

Also to your point....something like a Toyota Camry is a very good car in every way
Solid reliability, relatively simple and holds value

My guess is on the self closing doors is Mercedes thought the doors of the 90's 140 chassis car were heavy and didn't want anyone to have to work to slam them...

or...in my case..I had a narrow garage and it made the heavy doors easy to use when I didnt have the extra space. This would also be a plus with the new parking pilot if you have to get into a narrow parking space

You should really look at a 140 chassis S class Mercedes( 1992-1999) and see how heavy the doors were and you would understand what I mean

Warren

I think he just wanted the prestige of owning a MB S-Class. Plus the massaging seats.

A Toyota Camry would be fine, so long it is turned into a Lexus, with better interior materials, better sound-proofing, and better suspension.

 

[turnne]

I think he just wanted the prestige of owning a MB S-Class. Plus the massaging seats.

A Toyota Camry would be fine, so long it is turned into a Lexus, with better interior materials, better sound-proofing, and better suspension.

well...there is some marked differences in a 3 year old S class a new G90
Just like anything else..people have to choose what features, options, finishes etc they want
Luxury buyers typically want more of it all

As for the Lexus ES...its a safe bet for the market segment
Probably the reason they sell 3500 of them a month without having to heavily discount them

Warren

 

[Mcc]

but since every car in the 100K price class( or higher) has several common features I assume that buyer wants them..??

It is good that you put a question mark after that statement because I don't think it is such a good assumption. If they thought that buyers really wanted them they would have made them standard. Which is what the G90 did with a few of its features that are only optional on the Mercedes (less car, more money). I think a lot of those exclusive Mercedes feature are there just so they can say they have them (at an optional price) but takes a very special order and long wait to get (not on the lot).

I understand the F-150, and Ford Explorer, also have or had massaging seats. Same class as the Mercedes? Now I am guessing you are going to say there is no one feature, but all features that keep the G90 out of the Mercedes class. So how any does it take? And how many people actually ordered these extra cost features? I think the car is way over engineered and many of these gadgets are prone to failure and expensive to fix. Some are even gimmicks but they do have a powerful engine marketing machine.

 

[joneillnj]

Self closing doors are a harbinger of the decline of Western Civilization, or a sign of a poorly built car that has doors that don't close easily (take you pick).

Or for non-luddites who might not want to wake a sleeping child as even the best built door is not quiet to shut. Or for folks who have younger kids who get themselves in (or out) of the car but might not fully get the door closed causing mom or dad to have to get out and close properly. Of course, this topic was previously discussed, but some choose to ignore the benefits that were highlighted.

 

[turnne]

Perhap

It is good that you put a question mark after that statement because I don't think it is such a good assumption. If they thought that buyers really wanted them they would have made them standard. Which is what the G90 did with a few of its features that are only optional on the Mercedes (less car, more money). I think a lot of those exclusive Mercedes feature are there just so they can say they have them (at an optional price) but takes a very special order and long wait to get (not on the lot).

I understand the F-150, and Ford Explorer, also have or had massaging seats. Same class as the Mercedes? Now I am guessing you are going to say there is no one feature, but all features that keep the G90 out of the Mercedes class. So how any does it take? And how many people actually ordered these extra cost features? I think the car is way over engineered and many of these gadgets are prone to failure and expensive to fix. Some are even gimmicks but they do have a powerful engine marketing machine.

I don't know if making them standard makes a difference....just like the F150...if its available thats probably whats important

To your point though...just like the F150 has options...the Mercedes S class...BMW 7 series and Audi A8 have a lot of standard and optional features that are not available on the G90 for any price

Massaging seats...and well as dynamically auto adjusting seats that hug your body and adjust as you turn have been around for at least 8 years
I consider that table stakes in the full size ultra luxury class

Any of the cars I mentioned..Audi A8...BMW 7..or Mercedes S class has a similar amount of standard and optional features...along with some that make each of them unique as they are the only ones that have it

I assume that this buyer wants something unique?
Lexus stepped up their game a bit and sales have gone up..however I thought they were going to swing for the fences with the LS500 and they didn't

The LS500 reviews I read have concessions in them which makes me think the car will not sell well past its introduction phase

As far as the options people want..in regard to the Mercedes
It looks like the average buyer is choosing $15-20K worth of options over the base car....there are significantly more available that some are choosing

You understand at this class of car its really not about being practical....its about buying what you want
Anyone at this price range...and even 4 years down the road, as a used car, should have the financial ability to fix it ..otherwise they cant afford it

really....does any one need

10 Nappa leather interior options with 5 colors of interior woodwork.... and then 20 exterior color and 15 wheel options
Parking pilot to have their car park itself for tight spaces
A smart key remote that can diagnose the condition of the car
Active suspension with multiple cameras so you don't feel bumps and can adjust for what ever road you are on at the time
A touch screen that you can pull from the car and write on with your finger that syncs with the car
A V12 engine..or even a 500 HP high powered V8...since these cars will only likely be on city streets
A symphony level sound system with active tweeters

I could go on and on and on

I think the target buyer of this car will only change is they perceive they are getting the exact same thing for less money

A good example would be the original Lexus LS400
Perceived at the equivalent of the Mercedes E class at the time for thousands less..in fact it was the same price as the Lincoln's and Cadillacs of that time as well

No features missing..no downgrade in finishes and a dealership experience that rivaled the best
No wonder they had a wild success with the Lexus LS400 back then

Warren

 

[YEH]

"Geeze"
So this means Hyundai has minimal interest in perhaps offering the vehicles that United States buyers might buy from them?

Ugghh - you have the same problem w/ comprehension as Mark and Ernie.

Again, when the Genesis brand was launched in late 2015, the road map at the very start included 2 CUVs (they have since added a 3rd).

It is taking the time it is taking b/c a new platform is underpinning the GV80 and GV70 CUVs (which will be shared with the next gen G80 and G70).

As stated in a diff. thread, it took Alfa Romeo 10.5 years before they launched what could be seen as a volume model, the Giulia, since the time Marchionne announced the return of Alfa to the US.

Previously, the only models Alfa sold were 2 extremely low volume sports coupes/GTs.

because you missed a crucial stats
They are selling 800 G80's a month..compared to 4000 E classes a month and 1250 S classes per month

Pfffft - not missing anything; am well aware of what MB, much BMW, sells in those segments.

No one can compete w/ MB in those segments, not even BMW.

The point (which, again, seems to go totally over your head) is that competitors like Audi, Jaguar and Lexus (as well as Cadillac) are also struggling in those segments.

They have been at it for decades (if not a century or more) and have had much more time to establish a customer base.

If they aren't able to compete against MB when it comes to sales (in those segments), expecting Genesis to do so is really asinine.

Esp. considering that the 2 other Japanese lux brands (Infiniti and Acura) don't really compete in those segments, nor Lincoln.

And considering the volumes the E and S Class sell at, it's puzzling why there are a good # of leftover '17MY still on the lots? (But there they are.)

I don't think the market thinks a G80 is in the same class as an E class...much less an S class.

There are those who do and those who don't.

Just as there are those who don't consider the GS or LS to be in the same class as the E/S Classes.

But regardless, the automotive industry regards them to be in the same class.

AND we are talking about cars that are WAY more expensive to purchase than a G80...but yet outselling it handily

And...?

The S Class is more expensive than the 7er, A8 and XJ and it outsells them handily; and it's even more expensive compared to the LS and yet it outsells that.

And speaking of the LS, ever since hitting its peak in March (1st full month w/ adequate supply), sales of the new LS 500 has declined in April and May (only its 3rd full month w/ adequate supply).

Seems like my prediction is right on track.

At 800 cars a month in sales that is a LOT of inventory of unsold 2017 G80's( 380) as a percentage of sales...and as you know The G80's and G90's are being HEAVILLY discounted as a percentage of their sticker prices

And so is every lux sedan, including the S Class.

I think the long on tooth 2017 Lexus LS460..with a body style that had been around for 8 years and behind on technology etc and the market knowing there was a new design coming at any time will outsell the newly introduced G90....Lexus LS2017 sales versus G90 2018 sales

Of course, a new LS should outsell the G90.

But as already stated, sales of the LS 500 have already been declining.

And as I had stated, don't be surprised if the next gen G90 outsells the LS 500 (think Genesis will take taking turns when it comes to the sales lead w/ regard to the G90 and LS).

 

[YEH]

You are trying to frame your argument as a good enough distinction. I don’t think that the case. Exactly how do you decide what is in the Mercedes S class? Is there a clear cut dividing line between classes in you mind? I am not saying better or worse, just in the same class.
While I think for Mercedes you are paying more for less, it’s not about price.

Finally if the G90 is not in the same class as the Mercedes why are there so many articles directly comparing them?

Also, have to keep in mind that the USDM G90 is decontented compared to the KDM G90, and doesn't get the LWB or special editions (which get more special features).

 

[rroyce46]

As a 7 year retired 31 year veteran Salesman/Sales Manager of German cars ( MB,Porsche & Audi/VW)
I can tell you most high income buyers only want the 3 Pointed Star & can be sold or unsold
on any feature/option the car might have by a good salesman.
This will NEVER change.They won't even look @ another brand unless the MB Service dept finally pisses them off too many times which happens a lot..

Genesis is for buyers looking for value,luxury ,comfort,quietness & reliability & dare I say exclusivity .
I have had my car for 6 months.
I just completed a 3000 Kilometer 10 day road trip 2 weeks ago .
It's 90% of an S class for comfort on a long trip.
We were so pleased we are planning a 10000 kilometer road trip in July ( it's more comfortable than flying).
Best kept secret in luxury cars @ the moment.

 

[MyCorvette]

As a G90 owner, despite its being in the "startup" brand establishment phase, Genesis has already pissed me off very much.

Dealership counterfeited my signature; withholding government fees (I got it refunded after complaining relentlessly); messing up DMV title registration; Genesis USA corporate's laid-back attitude (the CS staff even said this is not their issue, no way to help), too many issues which I can go on for a long list.

I am VERY GLAD to see Genesis brand sales volume is shrinking over these months - especially May, which is usually one of the highest sales months during the year for other brands. I can foresee if Genesis corporate and dealership network keep doing things in such style, sales volume will shrink to single-digit ultimately.

Since G90 customers have the highest expectation, with such low standard service experience, it will lose sales the fastest. So I wish G90 will exit US market ASAP - and it deserve this. Market is fair, you treat customers this way, the market will treat you the same.

To establish a luxury brand in the US market, it is critical to do it 100% right at the very beginning. To make things worse, from my communication with various people (including senior managers) in Genesis USA, I do not feel they have enough morale to try to make things back on track.

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[turnne]

Ugghh - you have the same problem w/ comprehension as Mark and Ernie.

Again, when the Genesis brand was launched in late 2015, the road map at the very start included 2 CUVs (they have since added a 3rd).

It is taking the time it is taking b/c a new platform is underpinning the GV80 and GV70 CUVs (which will be shared with the next gen G80 and G70).

As stated in a diff. thread, it took Alfa Romeo 10.5 years before they launched what could be seen as a volume model, the Giulia, since the time Marchionne announced the return of Alfa to the US.

Previously, the only models Alfa sold were 2 extremely low volume sports coupes/GTs.

Again...this has no bearing on buyers in the United States care and want to buy
If you introduce a model in a country then you should do research about what those buyers want and under what circumstances
A good example would be Toyota's lauch of the Lexus brand in the US

Pfffft - not missing anything; am well aware of what MB, much BMW, sells in those segments.

No one can compete w/ MB in those segments, not even BMW.

The point (which, again, seems to go totally over your head) is that competitors like Audi, Jaguar and Lexus (as well as Cadillac) are also struggling in those segments.

They have been at it for decades (if not a century or more) and have had much more time to establish a customer base.

If they aren't able to compete against MB when it comes to sales (in those segments), expecting Genesis to do so is really asinine.

Esp. considering that the 2 other Japanese lux brands (Infiniti and Acura) don't really compete in those segments, nor Lincoln.

And considering the volumes the E and S Class sell at, it's puzzling why there are a good # of leftover '17MY still on the lots? (But there they are.)

BMW sells a comparative amount of sedans to Mercedes in the Unites States...and I look back at the numbers Lexus came out of the gate pretty well
Lets compare the first two years of Lexus sales to what Genesis has sold in 2017 and 2018

How do you define "struggling"...Cadillac is selling 3X the amount of CT6's that Genesis is selling G90's...and they are about the same price so they should be affordable to the same buyers

Actually my point in stating that 2017 were leftover was related to the fact when you have slow selling cars and large percentage of year old cars left over on the lots..that spells trouble

Ford has some leftover 2017 F150's and they are selling 80,000 of them a month in the United States...its about the percentage of left overs

Just like the huge discounts from sticker on the G80 and G90...it needs to compared as a percentage of its sticker not to something that costs $40K more

There are those who do and those who don't.

Just as there are those who don't consider the GS or LS to be in the same class as the E/S Classes.

But regardless, the automotive industry regards them to be in the same class.

Well...I guess the "automotive industry" is not buying cars then

The market ..in the United States....places cars in the same category that share finish , technology , customization and feature set
And frankly...you seem not to be able to get a hold of the concept that buyers determine the market and manufacturers move accordingly
Not the other way around

And...?

The S Class is more expensive than the 7er, A8 and XJ and it outsells them handily; and it's even more expensive compared to the LS and yet it outsells that.

And speaking of the LS, ever since hitting its peak in March (1st full month w/ adequate supply), sales of the new LS 500 has declined in April and May (only its 3rd full month w/ adequate supply).

Seems like my prediction is right on track.

I am not seeing these big differences in price you speak of.....I see a over $100K 7 series and A8...when they are optioned at the same level as the S class

But to your point..the S class has dominated that category for years just like the 3 series has dominated for years at the price point of cars like the G80
Mercedes only wishes they could sell as C class cars and BMW sells 3 series
I am sure Genesis would be very happy to sell even a third of what BMW and Mercedes( 3/4 series and C class) sell at the same price point

As I said..I thought the LS would be more a S class alternative this time...its not and the market is speaking to that
But...the G90 has declined each month as well with heavy discounting and low resale value of 2017 used cars

..and I predicted this two years ago...while you were posting things like AWD were going to make it much more marketable
That has not been the case at all...the market has spoken with low sales and declining and low resale numbers on year old lo w mileage cars

As I said..I bet even the 2017 leftover long on tooth LS460 will outsell the G90 in its 2017 numbers versus the 2018 G90 numbers

Of course, a new LS should outsell the G90.

But as already stated, sales of the LS 500 have already been declining.

And as I had stated, don't be surprised if the next gen G90 outsells the LS 500 (think Genesis will take taking turns when it comes to the sales lead w/ regard to the G90 and LS).

Is there going to be a next generation with these declining month after month sales and huge discounts( as a percentage of sticker)?

It seems to me they were trying to copy the previous generation LS minus some of the better interior finishes it had
IF there is another generation in the United States I would expect they drop the V8 and I don't see them selling at numbers anywhere near the LS with the current methodology of concessions in the cars content

The comparative reviews I have read have been about the same on the G90...good car..not original /containing derivate styling with a table stakes feature set
http://www.motortrend.com/news/genesis-g90-2017-car-of-the-year-finalist/

 

[turnne]

And for a May sales update

Genesis sales have dropped again

All your statements you made about AWD availability and Genesis branding changing the sales trajectory, a year of so ago, haven't come to be the case

But read my predictions from that time versus what has happened...
The only thing I see I missed was the I stated that a 3 year old V8 30K mile G90 would bring $35K.....that is definitely too high considering what 1 year old used cars are bringing and the heavy discounting on new cars

The OTHER interesting fact on sales is that the Equus actually outsold the G90 year over year in the first year and YTD it was available

I find that VERY interesting....all the features AWD..etc and branding that you said would increase sales ..and yet the Equus had actually sold more cars than the G90 in the same period

Ditto with the Genesis over the G80

Warren

 

[rroyce46]

I think the reduction of Hyundai /Genesis selling dealers is a big contributor
to loss of sales.Hyundai realizes this now & has reversed there "Stand alone Genesis Dealers"
for the time being until bricks & mortar dealers are built.
They completely eliminated Genesis traffic or impulse buyers in Hyundai dealerships.
Probably their best source of new sales as most Hyundai owners seem happy with their vehicles.

Warren,I hope you are right about low future G90 values in 3 years.
I will be looking for one to replace my 2016 Genny.
Depreciation is our friend as long as you are not the original or new car buyer.
50% loss in value in 2 years is pretty standard in the Industry .30% the 1st year ,20% the
2nd & 10% a year after that. I tend to buy a 1 1/2 to 2 year old low mileage car & run it for 3 years.
Works for me as am a low mileage driver.My 4 to 5 year old car is easy to trade too.

Other plus of low volume sales is we have distinctly exclusive cars.
It's kind of neat not seeing your mirror image @ every intersection
or being asked "What's that? " when filling the gas tank.
After spending 31 years in the Motor Trade & retiring 7 years ago
to coin a phrase often used in the car business " There's an ass for every seat".
I guess I found mine .

 

[turnne]

I think the reduction of Hyundai /Genesis selling dealers is a big contributor
to loss of sales.Hyundai realizes this now & has reversed there "Stand alone Genesis Dealers"
for the time being until bricks & mortar dealers are built.
They completely eliminated Genesis traffic or impulse buyers in Hyundai dealerships.

Warren,I hope you are right about low future G90 values in 3 years.
I will be looking for one to replace my 2016 Genny.
Depreciation is our friend as long as you are not the original or new car buyer.
50% loss in value in 2 years is pretty standard in the Industry .30% the 1st year ,20% the
2nd & 10% a year after that. I tend to buy a 1 1/2 to 2 year old low mileage car & run it for 3 years.
Works for me as am a low mileage driver.My 4 to 5 year old is easy to trade too.

Other plus of low volume sales is we have distinctly exclusive cars.
It's kind of neat not seeing your mirror image @ every intersection
or being asked "What's that? " when filling the gas tank.
After spending 31 years in the Motor Trade & retiring 7 years ago
to coin a phrase often used in the car business " There's an ass for every seat".
I guess I found mine .

I don't think they will ever see major Genesis sales in the United States unless they take the same route that Lexus took

They have to have the dealerships/ the sales experience/ the after sales experience that are on par with what they are competing with …..which would be likely a billion dollar investment

They also have to have products that the public perceives to be equals FOR less money than the standard bearers...ie..no concessions whatsoever

Lexus came out with the ground breaking LS that had a BETTER feature sets than the Mercedes V8 E class at the time and was $8000 less. Heck the Lexus LS was Cadillac and Lincoln priced at the time and clearly a better car than the then Cadillac Seville and Lincoln Continental in every way
The Lexus LS was also sold at a dealership that offered EVERYTHING the other competing luxury dealerships offered....some said better at the time

As for depreciation of the G90...OH YES!!
There are 2017 V8's with 10K miles in the mid $40's now...V6's even lower
Two more years and 20K more miles you will see an easy $12-14 more drop in value
Curiously...this is the same trajectory in value that the Equus had

Warren

 

[YEH]

And for a May sales update

Genesis sales have dropped again

So have sales for the A6 and A8; not to mention the XF and XJ.

As well as for the brand new LS 500 (2nd straight month of decline since hitting its sales height in March).

All your statements you made about AWD availability and Genesis branding changing the sales trajectory, a year of so ago, haven't come to be the case

Also stated that the higher pricing will negate some of that, as well the ever increasing turn to CUV; and it's too early to determine the effect of the switch to the Genesis brand as there are no separate dealerships yet (and as I have stated, will have a short-term effect of lowering sales as they move through the process).

Still, for 2017, the G80 (16,214) did more than twice the volume of the GS (7,773).

Many scoffed at the notion of the G80 outselling the GS, much less at more than twice the volume.

A6 - 16,304
CTS - 10,344
Q70 - 5,772
XF - 4,541

So, aside from the E Class/5 Series - the G80 held up favorably compared to the rest of the competition.

And actually, the addition of AWD did help G90 sales.

2017 saw the highest sales year for the G90 or Equus - with total sales of 4,398.

The best sales year for the Equus was in 2012 (3,972).

So even w/ the higher sticker price and more buyers turning to CUVs/SUVs, the G90 had a better sales year than the Equus ever did here.

For context, the LS 460 had 35,226 in sales for its best year (2007).

For this year w/ the LS 500, Lexus is targeting only 12k in sales (and they may struggle to hit that), so they're only expecting 34% of the volume that LS 460 did in its best year - that's how much the flagship sedan segment has shrunk (some of it is due to ever increasing move to CUVs/SUVs, but it's also the segment getting carved up into smaller pieces as more competitors have joined the fray - Equus/G90, Panamera, Model S, CT6 (which will be replaced in this segment by the Escala/CT8) and even something like the Continental (tho the upcoming Aviator CUV will likely cause more damage).

But read my predictions from that time versus what has happened...

I must have missed it...

Don't recall you predicting the G90 to best the sales mark of the Equus.

Or that the G80 not only will outsell the GS, but do so by a factor greater than 2x.

G80 sales are down, but then again, so are sales of most lux sedans.

Once again, G80 sales are right there w/ the A6 and well ahead of the GS, CTS and XF.

In addition, the Stinger had its best month (1,761) and I'll bet that that the GT1 and GT2 have taken some G80 sales.

The only thing I see I missed was the I stated that a 3 year old V8 30K mile G90 would bring $35K.....that is definitely too high considering what 1 year old used cars are bringing and the heavy discounting on new cars.

Seems to me you missed quite a bit.

The OTHER interesting fact on sales is that the Equus actually outsold the G90 year over year in the first year and YTD it was available

Is this another one of your proclamations parading as FACT?

The Equus never broke 4k in sales in the US; the G90 did (and doing so at a higher price-point).

I find that VERY interesting....all the features AWD..etc and branding that you said would increase sales ..and yet the Equus had actually sold more cars than the G90 in the same period

Again, wrong.

Ditto with the Genesis over the G80

The 1G Genesis sedan upon launch started at $32k.

The G80 starts at $42k.

The Stinger starts at the price where the Genesis sedan began and not surprisingly, is on a similar sales arc as the 1G Genesis.

The 2G Genesis/G80 had a sales mark of 31.3k in its 1st yr of sale.

While it didn't break the 33.9k total mark of Genesis back in 2012, that figure included sales of the coupe.

Factoring out the coupe, the sedan did 22,980 in sales, so the 2G Genesis (w/ HTRAC) did considerably better than the 1G Genesis w/o it.

So again, you're wrong.

I don't think they will ever see major Genesis sales in the United States unless they take the same route that Lexus took

They have to have the dealerships/ the sales experience/ the after sales experience that are on par with what they are competing with …..which would be likely a billion dollar investment.

Um, they're working on that.

Lexus came out with the ground breaking LS that had a BETTER feature sets than the Mercedes V8 E class at the time and was $8000 less. Heck the Lexus LS was Cadillac and Lincoln priced at the time and clearly a better car than the then Cadillac Seville and Lincoln Continental in every way
The Lexus LS was also sold at a dealership that offered EVERYTHING the other competing luxury dealerships offered....some said better at the time

As for depreciation of the G90...OH YES!!
There are 2017 V8's with 10K miles in the mid $40's now...V6's even lower
Two more years and 20K more miles you will see an easy $12-14 more drop in value
Curiously...this is the same trajectory in value that the Equus had

Warren

And w/o all that, the Genesis/G80 has outsold the GS for years (not to mention the Q70).

Heck, the Kia Stinger outsold the Lexus IS in Europe and Australia and is closing in on it in the US and Canada (will outsell the IS in Canada once it gets the 2.0T; presently, only the TTV6 is available).

 

[MyCorvette]

Need to point out, A6 sales shrunk because the all-new C8 generation is coming out, less people want to buy the C7 A6.

As for others (GS, Q70, XF etc.), they have never been a main stream competitor. If G80 is categorized into the same camp, and yes it is in a better situation than others.

But problem is, there is fix costs to sell a car model in US market. For Lexus GS, annual sales less than 10k units means losing money (US market). I do not know what is the breakeven point for G80 and G90, but I seriously believe at this moment, Genesis brand as a unit is not earning profit (and possibly need Hyundai headquarter's heavy subsidize to keep it in business - for the US branch).

I can see the fate of the Genesis brand, under the most optimistic scenario, to be similar to Infiniti. Q45 is in fact quite good from the mechanical aspect, but Infiniti some how messed up its US market launch. Even not being a successful launch, for the first full sales year (1990), Infiniti sold almost 14k units of Q45, far more than the G90.

There are some fundamental issues in the current US market, and also Hyundai corporate itself, to prevent Genesis to grow and be successful. Prime era for a new luxury brand to establish and grow has become a past history in US, due to consumer culture and mindset change. It is just like the career to be a professional concert pianist/violinist, you need to start very early (your prime time); after you pass a certain age (for example 30+), no matter how hard you start to learn and practice, you are almost 100% impossible to make it.

So have sales for the A6 and A8; not to mention the XF and XJ.

As well as for the brand new LS 500 (2nd straight month of decline since hitting its sales height in March).




Also stated that the higher pricing will negate some of that, as well the ever increasing turn to CUV; and it's too early to determine the effect of the switch to the Genesis brand as there are no separate dealerships yet (and as I have stated, will have a short-term effect of lowering sales as they move through the process).

Still, for 2017, the G80 (16,214) did more than twice the volume of the GS (7,773).

Many scoffed at the notion of the G80 outselling the GS, much less at more than twice the volume.

A6 - 16,304
CTS - 10,344
Q70 - 5,772
XF - 4,541

So, aside from the E Class/5 Series - the G80 held up favorably compared to the rest of the competition.

And actually, the addition of AWD did help G90 sales.

2017 saw the highest sales year for the G90 or Equus - with total sales of 4,398.

The best sales year for the Equus was in 2012 (3,972).

So even w/ the higher sticker price and more buyers turning to CUVs/SUVs, the G90 had a better sales year than the Equus ever did here.

For context, the LS 460 had 35,226 in sales for its best year (2007).

For this year w/ the LS 500, Lexus is targeting only 12k in sales (and they may struggle to hit that), so they're only expecting 34% of the volume that LS 460 did in its best year - that's how much the flagship sedan segment has shrunk (some of it is due to ever increasing move to CUVs/SUVs, but it's also the segment getting carved up into smaller pieces as more competitors have joined the fray - Equus/G90, Panamera, Model S, CT6 (which will be replaced in this segment by the Escala/CT8) and even something like the Continental (tho the upcoming Aviator CUV will likely cause more damage).





I must have missed it...

Don't recall you predicting the G90 to best the sales mark of the Equus.

Or that the G80 not only will outsell the GS, but do so by a factor greater than 2x.

G80 sales are down, but then again, so are sales of most lux sedans.

Once again, G80 sales are right there w/ the A6 and well ahead of the GS, CTS and XF.

In addition, the Stinger had its best month (1,761) and I'll bet that that the GT1 and GT2 have taken some G80 sales.




Seems to me you missed quite a bit.




Is this another one of your proclamations parading as FACT?

The Equus never broke 4k in sales in the US; the G90 did (and doing so at a higher price-point).




Again, wrong.




The 1G Genesis sedan upon launch started at $32k.

The G80 starts at $42k.

The Stinger starts at the price where the Genesis sedan began and not surprisingly, is on a similar sales arc as the 1G Genesis.

The 2G Genesis/G80 had a sales mark of 31.3k in its 1st yr of sale.

While it didn't break the 33.9k total mark of Genesis back in 2012, that figure included sales of the coupe.

Factoring out the coupe, the sedan did 22,980 in sales, so the 2G Genesis (w/ HTRAC) did considerably better than the 1G Genesis w/o it.

So again, you're wrong.





Um, they're working on that.




And w/o all that, the Genesis/G80 has outsold the GS for years (not to mention the Q70).

Heck, the Kia Stinger outsold the Lexus IS in Europe and Australia and is closing in on it in the US and Canada (will outsell the IS in Canada once it gets the 2.0T; presently, only the TTV6 is available).

 

[turnne]

So have sales for the A6 and A8; not to mention the XF and XJ.

As well as for the brand new LS 500 (2nd straight month of decline since hitting its sales height in March).




Also stated that the higher pricing will negate some of that, as well the ever increasing turn to CUV; and it's too early to determine the effect of the switch to the Genesis brand as there are no separate dealerships yet (and as I have stated, will have a short-term effect of lowering sales as they move through the process).

Still, for 2017, the G80 (16,214) did more than twice the volume of the GS (7,773).

Many scoffed at the notion of the G80 outselling the GS, much less at more than twice the volume.

A6 - 16,304
CTS - 10,344
Q70 - 5,772
XF - 4,541

So, aside from the E Class/5 Series - the G80 held up favorably compared to the rest of the competition.

And actually, the addition of AWD did help G90 sales.

2017 saw the highest sales year for the G90 or Equus - with total sales of 4,398.

The best sales year for the Equus was in 2012 (3,972).

So even w/ the higher sticker price and more buyers turning to CUVs/SUVs, the G90 had a better sales year than the Equus ever did here.

For context, the LS 460 had 35,226 in sales for its best year (2007).

For this year w/ the LS 500, Lexus is targeting only 12k in sales (and they may struggle to hit that), so they're only expecting 34% of the volume that LS 460 did in its best year - that's how much the flagship sedan segment has shrunk (some of it is due to ever increasing move to CUVs/SUVs, but it's also the segment getting carved up into smaller pieces as more competitors have joined the fray - Equus/G90, Panamera, Model S, CT6 (which will be replaced in this segment by the Escala/CT8) and even something like the Continental (tho the upcoming Aviator CUV will likely cause more damage).





I must have missed it...

Don't recall you predicting the G90 to best the sales mark of the Equus.

Or that the G80 not only will outsell the GS, but do so by a factor greater than 2x.

G80 sales are down, but then again, so are sales of most lux sedans.

Once again, G80 sales are right there w/ the A6 and well ahead of the GS, CTS and XF.

In addition, the Stinger had its best month (1,761) and I'll bet that that the GT1 and GT2 have taken some G80 sales.




Seems to me you missed quite a bit.




Is this another one of your proclamations parading as FACT?

The Equus never broke 4k in sales in the US; the G90 did (and doing so at a higher price-point).




Again, wrong.




The 1G Genesis sedan upon launch started at $32k.

The G80 starts at $42k.

The Stinger starts at the price where the Genesis sedan began and not surprisingly, is on a similar sales arc as the 1G Genesis.

The 2G Genesis/G80 had a sales mark of 31.3k in its 1st yr of sale.

While it didn't break the 33.9k total mark of Genesis back in 2012, that figure included sales of the coupe.

Factoring out the coupe, the sedan did 22,980 in sales, so the 2G Genesis (w/ HTRAC) did considerably better than the 1G Genesis w/o it.

So again, you're wrong.





Um, they're working on that.




And w/o all that, the Genesis/G80 has outsold the GS for years (not to mention the Q70).

Heck, the Kia Stinger outsold the Lexus IS in Europe and Australia and is closing in on it in the US and Canada (will outsell the IS in Canada once it gets the 2.0T; presently, only the TTV6 is available).

Again..not unpacking all this and sales outside the Unites States have nothing to do with sales inside


2018 G90 sales to date...1462 units...and trending down...AWD AVAILABLE
2012 Equus sales through May 2012....1915 units...and trending upward for 3 months

So..what did I miss when you said the addition of AWD would make the G90 outsell the Equus?......
Its not the case

But both are( were) subject to huge discounting and low resale..as you already know

And for price differences..lol...the Lexus took a large bump with no discounting and its selling at about 3X the clip previously sold

Everything that had a body style change took a bump in price..no sure what your point about mentioning price was?

The Cadillac CT6 is selling in significantly higher numbers than the G90 and its a sedan at the same price point. Though it does have a higher feature set
The new A8...though not in any comparison with any Genesis on any level..has a new body style coming out
If you still want to compare car that are $40K more then wait to see how the 2019 does

You know they sell more 7 series cars in the United States than Bentleys. Since you like to compare the uncomparable

Based on what you said shouldn't the G90 be selling at 3X the clip the Equus was?...And I didn't miss the AWD and branding gamechangers that you predicted would completely change things
I am not seeing those results...Lexus can say the new design made a difference in sales....3X

And you go again comparing cars of different classes
Do you really think the average buyer is comparing a G80 to any of those cars that are $20K more?
Hence the reason I compared the Lexus ES to the G80
Due to the heavy discounting on the G80...the V6 version is right there in transaction price with the Lexus ES that sells 3500 a month

The other aspect is that you have no idea how many people are buying the cheaper car because they cant afford more...so its really about what they can buy for their budget

ie...I bet Mercedes would sell more S classes in the United States if some of their E classes buyers could afford them

And the bigger issue is ...they will never open any free standing luxury dealerships with two slow selling cars

They better bring on the rebadged Hyundai crossovers

Warren

 

[YEH]

Need to point out, A6 sales shrunk because the all-new C8 generation is coming out, less people want to buy the C7 A6.

While that's true, the A6 has never really sold well even when new (not anywhere close to the volume that the E Class and 5 Series do).

Since the Genesis sedan was launched, the Genesis/G80 has outsold the A6 most of the time.

As for others (GS, Q70, XF etc.), they have never been a main stream competitor. If G80 is categorized into the same camp, and yes it is in a better situation than others.

If anything was a mainstream competitor to the 5 Series and E Class, it was the Lexus GS.

The GS in its best years would exceed the 30k sales mark (best year being 2005 when it sold 33.5k; a figure the A6 has never come close to).

Even the Infinti M hit the 25k mark back in the day (2006) - which, again, is more than what the A6 has ever done.

The thing is, sales of the GS and M never came close to their predecessors after the Genesis sedan was launched.

3G GS - 33.5k (2005)
4G GS - 24.5k (2012)

3G M - 24.6k (2006)
4G M/Q70 - 14.6k (2010)

Stated in the past that it would be interesting to see how IS and Q50 sales fare when the Stinger (and G70) hit the market.

The last 3 years, the Q50 has sold over 40k each year.

This year, the Q50 is on track to sell 32.5k (last year sold 40.7k).

Now, some of that is the natural decline in sales as a model ages and some being due to drivers switching to CUVs/SUVs.

But there are clearly some (who would have gotten the Q50) who opted for the Stinger once it came to market.

(An interesting footnote - there have been some buyers who wanted a Stinger GT2, but ended up w/ the Q50 RS b/c the lease deals were so much better - $200 less per month.)

As for Jaguar, they are an established lux brand.

For most of their history, they were seen as being more luxurious than BMW.

Point is, everyone (including Audi) is now a bit player in these segments compared to MB and BMW.

But problem is, there is fix costs to sell a car model in US market. For Lexus GS, annual sales less than 10k units means losing money (US market). I do not know what is the breakeven point for G80 and G90, but I seriously believe at this moment, Genesis brand as a unit is not earning profit (and possibly need Hyundai headquarter's heavy subsidize to keep it in business - for the US branch).

Well, that's likely the reason why Genesis had originally planned for a limited 100-strong dealer network and why, under the latest plan, requires such a high bar when it comes to facility/$$ commitment.

I can see the fate of the Genesis brand, under the most optimistic scenario, to be similar to Infiniti. Q45 is in fact quite good from the mechanical aspect, but Infiniti some how messed up its US market launch. Even not being a successful launch, for the first full sales year (1990), Infiniti sold almost 14k units of Q45, far more than the G90.

It was a different time.

The LS 400 did 42.8k in sales its 1st year.

Toyota is projecting only 12k in sales for the LS 500 and they may not even hit that.

But unlike Toyota/Lexus and Nissan/Infiniti, Hyundai/Genesis have a far more vibrant market for their large lux sedans in its domestic market.

So they can achieve far greater economies of scale (and then there's also Kia using the same basic platforms and powertrains for its lux offerings).

As for the prospective Genesis dealerships, they seem awfully bullish on the prospects of Genesis (as a brand), many dealership groups being peeved about having been (previously) left out (under the original plan) or willing to forgoe $4 million in compensation for just the opportunity to spend millions on a building a new dealership.

Think it's safe to say that they see sales volume to warrant their investment in the G70, the upcoming CUVs and other new models in the pipeline.

 

[YEH]

Again..not unpacking all this and sales outside the Unites States have nothing to do with sales inside

LOL!!

There's nothing to unpack.

Aside from you having been proved WRONG!

All your statements you made about AWD availability and Genesis branding changing the sales trajectory, a year of so ago, haven't come to be the case

The OTHER interesting fact on sales is that the Equus actually outsold the G90 year over year in the first year and YTD it was available

Ditto with the Genesis over the G80

As already pointed out, the G90 has bested the Equus in having the best sales year.

G90 - 4,398
Equus - 3,972

Same for the 2G Genesis/G80 compared to the 1G Genesis.

2G Genesis/G80 - over 30k
1G Genesis - 22,980

So despite your proclamations to the contrary, the addition of AWD did increase sales of both the G90 and 2G Genesis/G80.

And that's even w/ the G90 and 2G/G80 getting a price hike and more buyers having switched to CUVs/SUVs.

Funny how you just ignore all that (being wrong) and just repeat/rehash the same tired and debunked arguments.

Even w/ the facts staring you in the face, you ridiculously repeat the your erroneous claim.

So..what did I miss when you said the addition of AWD would make the G90 outsell the Equus?......
Its not the case

And for price differences..lol...the Lexus took a large bump with no discounting and its selling at about 3X the clip previously sold

Geeze, do I have to correct everything you post?


The '17MY LS 460 started at $72,520.

The LS 500 starts at $75k.

Wouldn't exactly call a $2,480 hike a large bump.

And the LS 460 did 35,226 in its 1st/best year of sale.

Toyota is projecting only 12k for the LS 500 and they will struggle to hit that.

Doing 12k/yr in sales volume (likely just for the 1st year) doesn't exactly make for good ROI, esp. as the LS isn't exactly a big seller in Japan (not like what the G90 has been in Korea); which is exactly why Toyota prolonged the life of the LS 460 in order to squeeze out every penny from that platform and powertrain (which is also the reason why they never bothered to update the powertrain, which Hyundai did for the Equus).

Furthermore, rumors have been strife about the demise of the GS.

Even if the GS escapes the knife (once again), there have been indications that if it does return, it will do so as a lower volume 4-door coupe model.

The Cadillac CT6 is selling in significantly higher numbers than the G90 and its a sedan at the same price point.

Stated numerous times that domestic buyers tend to be a different breed (many wanting to purchase domestic if given the chance).

Also, there's a significantly larger spread btwn the starting price of the CT6 and G90 than there is btwn the G90 and LS 500.

The CT6 starting at $54.1k and the G90 starting at $68.3k.

 

[MyCorvette]

You are making a lot of assumption to support your own conclusion, let's not do this.

I would like to go with this approach: we all know in some states, Hyundai does not register the "Genesis" brand name, and keep put the G80/G90 under the "Hyundai" brand. For example in CA DMV, as of today it is still called: Hyundai Genesis G80/G90.

This issue should be easy to fix; however, do you know why Hyundai USA is so "lazy" (or lack of motivation) to make it right?

While that's true, the A6 has never really sold well even when new (not anywhere close to the volume that the E Class and 5 Series do).

Since the Genesis sedan was launched, the Genesis/G80 has outsold the A6 most of the time.




If anything was a mainstream competitor to the 5 Series and E Class, it was the Lexus GS.

The GS in its best years would exceed the 30k sales mark (best year being 2005 when it sold 33.5k; a figure the A6 has never come close to).

Even the Infinti M hit the 25k mark back in the day (2006) - which, again, is more than what the A6 has ever done.

The thing is, sales of the GS and M never came close to their predecessors after the Genesis sedan was launched.

3G GS - 33.5k (2005)
4G GS - 24.5k (2012)

3G M - 24.6k (2006)
4G M/Q70 - 14.6k (2010)

Stated in the past that it would be interesting to see how IS and Q50 sales fare when the Stinger (and G70) hit the market.

The last 3 years, the Q50 has sold over 40k each year.

This year, the Q50 is on track to sell 32.5k (last year sold 40.7k).

Now, some of that is the natural decline in sales as a model ages and some being due to drivers switching to CUVs/SUVs.

But there are clearly some (who would have gotten the Q50) who opted for the Stinger once it came to market.

(An interesting footnote - there have been some buyers who wanted a Stinger GT2, but ended up w/ the Q50 RS b/c the lease deals were so much better - $200 less per month.)

As for Jaguar, they are an established lux brand.

For most of their history, they were seen as being more luxurious than BMW.

Point is, everyone (including Audi) is now a bit player in these segments compared to MB and BMW.




Well, that's likely the reason why Genesis had originally planned for a limited 100-strong dealer network and why, under the latest plan, requires such a high bar when it comes to facility/$$ commitment.





It was a different time.

The LS 400 did 42.8k in sales its 1st year.

Toyota is projecting only 12k in sales for the LS 500 and they may not even hit that.

But unlike Toyota/Lexus and Nissan/Infiniti, Hyundai/Genesis have a far more vibrant market for their large lux sedans in its domestic market.

So they can achieve far greater economies of scale (and then there's also Kia using the same basic platforms and powertrains for its lux offerings).

As for the prospective Genesis dealerships, they seem awfully bullish on the prospects of Genesis (as a brand), many dealership groups being peeved about having been (previously) left out (under the original plan) or willing to forgoe $4 million in compensation for just the opportunity to spend millions on a building a new dealership.

Think it's safe to say that they see sales volume to warrant their investment in the G70, the upcoming CUVs and other new models in the pipeline.