Planning to buy used Genesis

[Mark_888]

Focusing on the few that have problems makes the problem itself seem far worse, that is the nature of hearing a few true stories which anecdotal evidence. Hyundai sold almost 34,000 Genesis in 2012, how many of those have had transmission problems and needed to have the transmission replace? For the few, the problem is very well, I'm not arguing that. For the rest of us, the 8 speed transmission is great and superior to the 6-speed.

Dean

Contrary to your claims, my posts above are not based on mere opinion.

Although I don't know the exact number of 2012 transmissions that had to be replaced, just based on posts in this forum it was way above normal, and I don't recall hardly any non-2012 transmissions that needed to be replaced, and I have been on this forum since January 2009. So it is reasonable to conclude that in its first year on the market, the Hyundai 8-speed transmission had some problems, and fairly severe problems since they don't replace $8,000 transmissions (not including labor) for minor reasons.

It appears that Hyundai did make a manufacturing line fix to the problem at some point during the 2012 model year, so not all 2012's transmissions may have a problem. It is hard to know, since Hyundai has not made public what the manufacturing dates of the problem transmissions.

 

[kn5owa]

My local dealer doesn't even know how to get the wipers to stop in the "up" position when changing wiper blades...... gawd.... they're so pitiful these days.

I wonder if they know how to check the radiator coolant level on the 5.0?

It's done with a well hidden little folding plastic dipstick that's about the goofiest thing I've seen on any car.

 

[qstarweb]

Contrary to your claims, my posts above are not based on mere opinion.

Although I don't know the exact number of 2012 transmissions that had to be replaced, just based on posts in this forum it was way above normal, and I don't recall hardly any non-2012 transmissions that needed to be replaced, and I have been on this forum since January 2009. So it is reasonable to conclude that in its first year on the market, the Hyundai 8-speed transmission had some problems, and fairly severe problems since they don't replace $8,000 transmissions (not including labor) for minor reasons.

It appears that Hyundai did make a manufacturing line fix to the problem at some point during the 2012 model year, so not all 2012's transmissions may have a problem. It is hard to know, since Hyundai has not made public what the manufacturing dates of the problem transmissions.

Contrary to your claims, a FEW posts here prove that a FEW had problems, but it doesn't document by itself, a widespread problem, or justification for calling the product a "POS." Now that might comfort you in believing you made the better choice to have chosen a Genesis with the 6 speed transmission because you've convinced yourself that the 2012 model of the 8-speed transmission is a "POS" but you haven't documented it with anything more than anecdotal evidence, a few posts here. Is there zero problem with them, not likely. There was a problem, and like I said, if ONE owner has to have it replaced, it's a problem. But that doesn't mean large percentages of the transmission were bad, they weren't. The real nature of the problem should be understood by Hyundai, and evidently it was, because you acknowledged they fixed the issue at some point in 2012, as they did with the oil consumption issues with the 5.0 engines made in early 2012.

There are also a LOT of posts here about problems with issues other than engines and transmissions. I don't doubt that those issues are real too, but they are a small percentage. And on a message forum where owners post about the problems, and less often post about everything that works fine, we hear the problems in a way that over-represents how often they really do happen, even those they do actually happen. That is the nature of any community like this where one of the purposes is to discuss problems. But it doesn't mean, overall, that the product is a "POS" because some of them are faulty. Now if you have empirical evidence that 20 percent of the transmission needed to be fixed or replaced in the first two years, that would be an entirely different issue.

Dean

 

[Mark_888]

The real nature of the problem should be understood by Hyundai, and evidently it was, because you acknowledged they fixed the issue at some point in 2012, as they did with the oil consumption issues with the 5.0 engines made in early 2012.

If, as you agree, there was a design or assembly problem with the early 2012 transmission or the early 2012 5.0 engine, it likely means that all of them (up to the point when Hyundai fixed the problem) are potentially likely to fail more often than normal, regardless of whether they have failed yet.

Considering the cost of a transmission or engine (well over $10K each with labor), if someone comes on this forum with the idea that they want to buy a used Genesis that may be out of warranty (either when purchased or soon after), and they ask for advice, I feel like it is only fair to warn them of the potential problems as experienced by others.

I don't know what your issue is, whether you are a Hyundai employee, or an owner of a 2012 concerned about resale value, but I think I provided the OP with some valuable advice in selecting a used Genesis.

But you are entitled to your opinion, so if you don't own a early 2012 Genesis, I would highly recommend one just for yourself or your family.

 

[qstarweb]

If, as you agree, there was a design or assembly problem with the early 2012 transmission or the early 2012 5.0 engine, it likely means that all of them (up to the point when Hyundai fixed the problem) are potentially likely to fail more often than normal, regardless of whether they have failed yet.

Considering the cost of a transmission or engine (well over $10K each with labor), if someone comes on this forum with the idea that they want to buy a used Genesis that may be out of warranty (either when purchased or soon after), and they ask for advice, I feel like it is only fair to warn them of the potential problems as experienced by others.

I don't know what your issue is, whether you are a Hyundai employee, or an owner of a 2012 concerned about resale value, but I think I provided the OP with some valuable advice in selecting a used Genesis.

But you are entitled to your opinion, so if you don't own a early 2012 Genesis, I would highly recommend one just for yourself or your family.

Opinion is all that you offer because you haven't backed up any of your claims with hard empirical evidence. A few posts here does not prove that the 2012 8 speed transmission made by Hyundai is any less reliable than any other. It's not easy to find hard numbers, but what if we're really talking about maybe 2-3 percent of the 2012 transmissions having problems versus maybe 1.5 percent of the 2011 transmissions having problems, is that really a statistically significant difference?

Odds are, if this member purchases a 2012 that a previous owner drove for 50,000 miles with no issues, it isn't likely the transmission will be among those small percent that were flawed and will need to be replaced. To counsel someone to avoid buying that product, with out ANY empirical evidence that this product is any more likely to be a lemon than the 2011 or the 2013, is not what I see as valuable advice.

My "issue" is with making a claim not based on empirical evidence, but merely anecdotal "evidence" of a few message board posts, and thinking that advising someone of the basis of this is valuable advice.

For the record, my Genesis is a 2012 model with the 5.0 engine and 8 speed transmission that was built on March 7, 2012 and owned by one previous owner via a lease, and problems were reported via the Carfax report. I"ve checked the oil regularly and have seen no signs of the oil consumption problem. Additionally, I've had no problems with the transmission.

Dean

 

[Mark_888]

Opinion is all that you offer because you haven't backed up any of your claims with hard empirical evidence. A few posts here does not prove that the 2012 8 speed transmission made by Hyundai is any less reliable than any other. It's not easy to find hard numbers, but what if we're really talking about maybe 2-3 percent of the 2012 transmissions having problems versus maybe 1.5 percent of the 2011 transmissions having problems, is that really a statistically significant difference?

Odds are, if this member purchases a 2012 that a previous owner drove for 50,000 miles with no issues, it isn't likely the transmission will be among those small percent that were flawed and will need to be replaced. To counsel someone to avoid buying that product, with out ANY empirical evidence that this product is any more likely to be a lemon than the 2011 or the 2013, is not what I see as valuable advice.

My "issue" is with making a claim not based on empirical evidence, but merely anecdotal "evidence" of a few message board posts, and thinking that advising someone of the basis of this is valuable advice.

For the record, my Genesis is a 2012 model with the 5.0 engine and 8 speed transmission that was built on March 7, 2012 and owned by one previous owner via a lease, and problems were reported via the Carfax report. I"ve checked the oil regularly and have seen no signs of the oil consumption problem. Additionally, I've had no problems with the transmission.

Dean

Coincidently, there is a current thread on this subject.
http://www.genesisowners.com/hyundai-genesis-forum/showthread.php?t=16670

There are many more similar threads. Please stop your nonsense. The early 2012 8-speed transmission has experienced way above average problems, and many have been replaced, especially in comparison to any other model year of the Genesis.

A build date of March 7, 2012 is actually pretty late in the model year, as it can take up to 3 months for a Genesis to be assembled in Korea, imported by HMA, and shipped to dealers in the US. So your unit may not have any of the problems that the early ones had. If the 2012's were on sale in late September 2011 (I don't recall the date), that would mean that they started production on them about early July 2011.

 

[qstarweb]

Coincidently, there is a current thread on this subject.
http://www.genesisowners.com/hyundai-genesis-forum/showthread.php?t=16670

There are many more similar threads. Please stop your nonsense. The early 2012 8-speed transmission has experienced way above average problems, and many have been replaced, especially in comparison to any other model year of the Genesis.

A build date of March 7, 2012 is actually pretty late in the model year, as it can take up to 3 months for a Genesis to be assembled in Korea, imported by HMA, and shipped to dealers in the US. So your unit may not have any of the problems that the early ones had. If the 2012's were on sale in late September 2011 (I don't recall the date), that would mean that they started production on them about early July 2011.

Here is the definition of anecdotal evidence:

Anecdotal evidence is evidence from anecdotes. Where only one or a few anecdotes are presented, there is a larger chance that they may be unreliable due to cherry-picked or otherwise non-representative samples of typical cases.

A handful of reports of such problems, which doesn't make those reports any less real, constitute anecdotal evidence. If we had numbers that 2011 Genesis transmissions were lemons 1.1 percent of the times, and 2012 Genesis transmission were lemons 8.6 percent, then we have a real statistical difference, and can make a claim that the 2012 8-speed transmission is more likely to be a problem.

You are making that claim in your advice, where is your empirical evidence? So far all you've offered is opinion.

My Genesis was built on March 7, 2012. It was processed by US Customs on April 20, 2012. It was offered for sale by the dealer on May 7, 2012, and sold 2 days later. Perhaps the original owner ordered it, I don't know. But it was offered for sale exactly two months after being built.

Dean

 

[MathWiz]

Dean and Mark,

This seems to be getting ridiculous. A new member asked for opinions and advice, both of you made recommendations about certain model years that you personally would not purchase i.e. 2009 and 2012, Statguy pointed out that the first year of most models or significant revisions are more problematic that subsequent model years.

You are talking about percentages, but what is the base number of those percentages, 1% of a large number is still a significant amount, and it is not just US imports, but the total production for the year that are pertinent to the equation.

I would want to know that a certain year was more likely to fail, maybe saying it was a POS was an exaggeration, but just because you have had no problem with that year, doesn't mean another won't be in the problematic group. These are used cars, and buyers need to be as informed and cautious as possible.

Charles

 

[Mark_888]

Dean and Mark,

This seems to be getting ridiculous. A new member asked for opinions and advice, both of you made recommendations about certain model years that you personally would not purchase i.e. 2009 and 2012, Statguy pointed out that the first year of most models or significant revisions are more problematic that subsequent model years.

You are talking about percentages, but what is the base number of those percentages, 1% of a large number is still a significant amount, and it is not just US imports, but the total production for the year that are pertinent to the equation.

I would want to know that a certain year was more likely to fail, maybe saying it was a POS was an exaggeration, but just because you have had no problem with that year, doesn't mean another won't be in the problematic group. These are used cars, and buyers need to be as informed and cautious as possible.

Charles

Mathwiz,

You are apparently relatively new to this forum. I have been on this forum since January 2009 and have read every post regarding transmission and engine problems (and just about every other post also). I can assure you that there is ample evidence posted on this forum to back up my claims about the early 2012 models and their problems.

The comments about the 2009 being problematic because it was the first year of the Genesis, are not born out by the evidence, because the 2009 V6 engine, and the transmissions for the V6 and V8 (different transmissions) are in fact tried and true designs that have been around for awhile (and used in many cars besides Hyundai Genesis).

The Hyundai Lambda V6 was not a new design in 2009 and had been used in many Hyundai and Kia's before 2009.

The exception is the 2009 Tau V8, which was brand new that year, and did in fact have problems.

 

[Mark_888]

Here is the definition of anecdotal evidence:

Anecdotal evidence is evidence from anecdotes. Where only one or a few anecdotes are presented, there is a larger chance that they may be unreliable due to cherry-picked or otherwise non-representative samples of typical cases.

A handful of reports of such problems, which doesn't make those reports any less real, constitute anecdotal evidence. If we had numbers that 2011 Genesis transmissions were lemons 1.1 percent of the times, and 2012 Genesis transmission were lemons 8.6 percent, then we have a real statistical difference, and can make a claim that the 2012 8-speed transmission is more likely to be a problem.

You are making that claim in your advice, where is your empirical evidence? So far all you've offered is opinion.

My Genesis was built on March 7, 2012. It was processed by US Customs on April 20, 2012. It was offered for sale by the dealer on May 7, 2012, and sold 2 days later. Perhaps the original owner ordered it, I don't know. But it was offered for sale exactly two months after being built.

Dean

My comments are based on reading all the relevant posts on this forum since January 2009. My conclusion is not based on a "handful" of complaints, it is based on dozens of complaints on this forum relating to multiple problems with the early 2012's, and almost complete lack of problems with any other model year (other than isolated incidents that appear to not be connected to each other).

Did you read the thread I posted a link to that is active just today on 2012 transmission problems?

For both the early 2012 5.0 V8 engine and the early 2012 8-speed transmission, there is ample evidence posted this forum about systemic problems with both. A systemic problem is when there is a manufacturing or design defect which Hyundai has admitted to, and in both cases HMA has told members that when they get their new engines or transmissions replaced, they will not have the same problems because Hyundai made specific manufacturing changes to fix the problems.

All of what I have said is posted in this forum. Beyond the one thread I provided a link for, I am not going to find the threads where these problems were discussed many times, as you can use Google to find them yourself.

Regarding your build date, I said "up to" 3 months, so 2 months is not out of line with what I claimed. The dates you gave me indicate that yours was not assembled early in the 2012 model year, and was in fact late in the model year. Others have posted the date the 5.0 V8 was fixed on the production line, but I don't have that date handy. I don't know if anyone has posted a date for the transmission fix.

My advice is for the OP who is looking to buy a used car. If you are too lazy to do the research on this forum of reported problems, that is your decision, as I will not do it for you (beyond what I have already done).

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[qstarweb]

Mathwiz,

You are apparently relatively new to this forum. I have been on this forum since January 2009 and have read every post regarding transmission and engine problems (and just about every other post also). I can assure you that there is ample evidence posted on this forum to back up my claims about the early 2012 models and their problems.

Again, this is anecdotal evidence, not statistically significant enough to make a judgment on the basis of it. If you want to claim the 2012 models are less reliable than others, show us the empirical evidence for your claim, otherwise admit it is merely opinion. Do you have significant stats to back up this claim? What are percent of the 2009-2011 V6/6 speed transmission equipped models were lemons, or had to have the engine or transmission repaired, replaced, etc. Likewise, what percentages were repaired or replaced among the 8 speed transmission built in 2012, the 4.6 or 5.0 engines in 2012, etc.

If you don't have the evidence, don't make the claim. Offer it as opinion, that you believe they are less reliable based on message board posts.

Dean

 

[qstarweb]

Dean and Mark,

This seems to be getting ridiculous. A new member asked for opinions and advice, both of you made recommendations about certain model years that you personally would not purchase i.e. 2009 and 2012, Statguy pointed out that the first year of most models or significant revisions are more problematic that subsequent model years.

You are talking about percentages, but what is the base number of those percentages, 1% of a large number is still a significant amount, and it is not just US imports, but the total production for the year that are pertinent to the equation.

I would want to know that a certain year was more likely to fail, maybe saying it was a POS was an exaggeration, but just because you have had no problem with that year, doesn't mean another won't be in the problematic group. These are used cars, and buyers need to be as informed and cautious as possible.

Charles

I agree. You're right. Calling it a POS was an exaggeration, and a statement based merely on opinion, and not evidence. Of course someone buying one would want to know, but know based on solid information and evidence, not mere opinion dressed up as being something more than it is.

Dean

 

[qstarweb]

My comments are based on reading all the relevant posts on this forum since January 2009. My conclusion is not based on a "handful" of complaints, it is based on dozens of complaints on this forum relating to multiple problems with the early 2012's, and almost complete lack of problems with any other model year (other than isolated incidents that appear to not be connected to each other).

Did you read the thread I posted a link to that is active just today on 2012 transmission problems?

For both the early 2012 5.0 V8 engine and the early 2012 8-speed transmission, there is ample evidence posted this forum about systemic problems with both. A systemic problem is when there is a manufacturing or design defect which Hyundai has admitted to, and in both cases HMA has told members that when they get their new engines or transmissions replaced, they will not have the same problems because Hyundai made specific manufacturing changes to fix the problems.

All of what I have said is posted in this forum. Beyond the one thread I provided a link for, I am not going to find the threads where these problems were discussed many times, as you can use Google to find them yourself.

Regarding your build date, I said "up to" 3 months, so 2 months is not out of line with what I claimed. The dates you gave me indicate that yours was not assembled early in the 2012 model year, and was in fact late in the model year. Others have posted the date the 5.0 V8 was fixed on the production line, but I don't have that date handy. I don't know if anyone has posted a date for the transmission fix.

My advice is for the OP who is looking to buy a used car. If you are too lazy to do the research on this forum of reported problems, that is your decision, as I will not do it for you (beyond what I have already done).

I have read ALL the threads on the transmission issues, and yes some owners have had problems with them, which have been fixed by repair or replacing of the transmissions. Some have noted the problem occurs more with those built earlier, etc. To suggest than someone considering buying one look at issues, like how early in 2012 it was built, etc. is reasonable. But to just dismiss the entire 2012 model year based on anecdotal evidence (and the posts, even if there are "dozens" of cases, is still anecdotal) is not a reasonable assumption to make, or "valuable advice" because it's very misleading.

I have read all the threads on the issue, and have also been "lazy" enough to do some research on the issue outside of the forum as well, to find the evidence that you haven't presented. The stats aren't easy to find, if they are being reported, but then again, I'm not making such broad claims, painting with such a wide brush and condemning the entire model year of 2012 transmissions based on "dozens" of cases, out of almost 34,000 sold in the United States.

Dean

 

[Mark_888]

I have read ALL the threads on the transmission issues, and yes some owners have had problems with them, which have been fixed by repair or replacing of the transmissions. Some have noted the problem occurs more with those built earlier, etc. To suggest than someone considering buying one look at issues, like how early in 2012 it was built, etc. is reasonable. But to just dismiss the entire 2012 model year based on anecdotal evidence (and the posts, even if there are "dozens" of cases, is still anecdotal) is not a reasonable assumption to make, or "valuable advice" because it's very misleading.

I have read all the threads on the issue, and have also been "lazy" enough to do some research on the issue outside of the forum as well, to find the evidence that you haven't presented. The stats aren't easy to find, if they are being reported, but then again, I'm not making such broad claims, painting with such a wide brush and condemning the entire model year of 2012 transmissions based on "dozens" of cases, out of almost 34,000 sold in the United States.

Dean

1. My response was for the OP who was looking to purchase a used car. I don't know the exact date of when the transmission was fixed, so I believe my advice was appropriate.
2. As far as calling the transmission a POS, that may have been misdirected, but all I could do within the forum rules.

 

[Mark_888]

I have read all the threads on the issue, and have also been "lazy" enough to do some research on the issue outside of the forum as well, to find the evidence that you haven't presented. The stats aren't easy to find, if they are being reported, but then again, I'm not making such broad claims, painting with such a wide brush and condemning the entire model year of 2012 transmissions based on "dozens" of cases, out of almost 34,000 sold in the United States.

Dean

When:

1. There have been dozens of complaints on this forum about the exact same symptom of the 2012 transmission problem, and
2. Only a few problems with any Genesis transmission have been reported for all other years combined, and the problems/symptoms for the other years (besides 2012) appear to be not connected with each other, and
3. Hyundai (HMA) admits there was a manufacturing/design problem with the early 2012 transmission and says the replacement will not have the same problem

Then I believe my conclusion about the 2012 transmission was correct and statistically valid. Obviously, as stated, I don't know exactly when it was fixed.

 

[qstarweb]

I hope the problems that were found are fixed and the 8 speed transmissions as well as the 5.0 V8 engines they are making now don't have these issues at all. The higher priced competition (Lexus, BMW, etc.) are making comparable cars with 8 speed transmissions, so it is important that Hyundai is competitive going forward with the Genesis models to produce high quality products that will compete.

Although the problems are very real and I've never denied that, I have had no problem with mine. But if I do, it will be fixed or replaced under warranty. It's that simple. It would be inconvenient, but as others have done here, I"ll get it taken care of as well.

Dean

 

[Audio]

The exception is the 2009 Tau V8, which was brand new that year, and did in fact have problems.

What problems would those be, if you might have a moment to speak about it?

 

[Mark_888]

I hope the problems that were found are fixed and the 8 speed transmissions as well as the 5.0 V8 engines they are making now don't have these issues at all. The higher priced competition (Lexus, BMW, etc.) are making comparable cars with 8 speed transmissions, so it is important that Hyundai is competitive going forward with the Genesis models to produce high quality products that will compete.

Although the problems are very real and I've never denied that, I have had no problem with mine. But if I do, it will be fixed or replaced under warranty. It's that simple. It would be inconvenient, but as others have done here, I"ll get it taken care of as well.

Dean

The OP is considering a purchase of a used car, where the warranty may either soon expire or may be already expired for a 2012. The 100K mile - 10 year drivetrain warranty is only applicable to the original owner, unless the used car is sold as a CPO. My initial response was to the OP, as a used car buyer, and my response was not about whether the Genesis is overall reliable or whether Hyundai honors its warranties, etc.

Because Hyundai admitted to some owners that the initial 2012 transmission and 2012 5.0 engine had manufacturing/design defects, and that the replacement would not have the same problem, we know the problem was eventually fixed on manufacturing line during the model year. This has been posted by several members who spoke directly with HMA on these issues (when they had to escalate the problem to HMA)..

 

[Mark_888]

What problems would those be, if you might have a moment to speak about it?

Some early Genesis 4.6 V8 owners (starting with 2009 model year) reported the following symptoms under the described circumstances:

1. Start a cold engine and shut it off within a short period of time (less than a minute).
2. Restart the car at some later time, and it might experience a violent shaking of the engine.
3. This happened more often in cold weather or when car was parked on a severe incline or decline.

It was apparently the case that if the early 4.6 V8 engine was shut off before the engine was sufficiently warm, some of the internal parts ended up stuck in the wrong position, and that caused violent shaking of the engine upon restart. I don't recall if they were valves, or whatever, but the engine apparently relied on gravity for certain parts to fall back to their correct position after shutdown.

In some cases, the severe shaking caused damage to the internal parts, that was severe enough to require a new engine right away, but in most cases it caused minor damage that did not show up until later, or never showed up later.

It affected owners in cold climates more than warmer climates, especially if the car was left outside on a cold day. Those that shut off the engine right away after the shaking started experienced less or no permanent damage.

All of the above is documented in this forum by Genesis 4.6 owners starting in 2009. I don't know when Hyundai fixed this problem. I would recommend using a synthetic oil that flows much better in cold weather than conventional oil.

 

[shagnat]

*sigh* Power struggles power struggles...... please save your energy.