Rare Genesis Sightings

[Mark_888]

Isn't it a little odd that someone would have 600+ posts and is not an owner, maybe its me

And he joined in August 2008, so that is about 5 years now. Obviously somehow connected with Hyundai, either directly or indirectly (industry consultant, family association, or whatever).

Not that I am objecting to anyone posting on this forum who wants to, but it would be nice for everyone to come clean about their relationships with Hyundai or other products discussed here (I believe that vendors are supposed to identify themselves).

Just for record, I post here because I purchased a Hyundai Genesis in Jan 2009. I stopped posting in a Toyota forum when I no longer owned one (or reasonably soon thereafter). It would never occur to me to start posting in a forum about a car that I don't own, or have no consideration of buying in the near future (and definitely not 5 years later).

 

[Potty_Pants]

Ownership is just a switch on your profile, not like there is a background check.

Ive caught dinan and bmw lurking the forums. It would be silly to think hyundai isnt
Wandering around too.

He brings info to the forums

Yes i do find it strange sombody finds hyundai interesting for 5 years w/o owning one.
So is there ties ... probably... good for us.

Ppp

 

[YEH]

And he joined in August 2008, so that is about 5 years now. Obviously somehow connected with Hyundai, either directly or indirectly (industry consultant, family association, or whatever).

Not that I am objecting to anyone posting on this forum who wants to, but it would be nice for everyone to come clean about their relationships with Hyundai or other products discussed here (I believe that vendors are supposed to identify themselves).

What is with Mark and his conspiracy theories?

Since he can't come up with anything concrete to refute what I have stated, much less back up his claims, he resorts to the time-honored tradition of what posters who have been backed into a corner do and start attacking the credibility of others.

Just for record, I post here because I purchased a Hyundai Genesis in Jan 2009. I stopped posting in a Toyota forum when I no longer owned one (or reasonably soon thereafter). It would never occur to me to start posting in a forum about a car that I don't own, or have no consideration of buying in the near future (and definitely not 5 years later).

Why does anyone have to own anything to post on an auto forum?

Again, for the record, I have absolutely NO CONNECTION to Hyundai.

I highly doubt anyone employed by Hyundai would critique their products as much as I have (overdone styling on the Sonata, Tuscon, Genesis coupe, etc.; overboosted steering lacking feedback throughout their lineup; and specifically for the Genesis and Equus sedans - interiors that are subpar in materials for their respective segments, along with dash designs that are too conservative/look outdated, etc. as well as for the sheetmetal on the Equus).

Heck, one poster gave me hard time since I stated that I was a bit underwhelmed by the design of the new Genesis sedan (from what can be seen based on the spy shots).

And for the record, I post a lot more on a GM forum and I don't own a GM vehicle either, nor do I have any connection to GM - but I guess according to Mark, I must have some sort of underhanded connection to GM.

Sal knows me from the GM forum where both of us post most frequently about Cadillac (their models and what they are doing right/wrong) and I don't think Sal currently owns a Cadillac either (tho with the good things Cadillac is doing these days, Cadillac is once again on my shopping list and may be on Sal's once Cadillac launches the Omega flagship), much less a Hyundai.

 

[Mark_888]

What is with Mark and his conspiracy theories?

Since he can't come up with anything concrete to refute what I have stated, much less back up his claims, he resorts to the time-honored tradition of what posters who have been backed into a corner do and start attacking the credibility of others.

I didn't attack your credibility, I was responding to what someone else posted. In fact, by suspecting that you have a relationship to Hyundai, one would assume you have inside information, which gives you more credibility. If you are not connected with Hyundai in any way, then I guess some will be disappointed and suspect that you are just a person obsessed with Hyundai, as opposed to some who has insider information.

As far as refuting what you posted, what you posted was completely off topic. The topic is whether Asian Americans and Korean Americans think about the prestige of owning a Hyundai versus Toyota or Honda products, especially in CA. This claim that most Asian and Korean American prefer to drive a Toyota or Honda was originally stated by others in this thread, not me (although I don't have any reason to doubt them). Instead of addressing this issue, you changed to subject to something else with a bunch of off-topic statistics, which are irrelevant to point above.

I am not trying to state or refute anything about the affluence of Sonata owners, which includes a lot of affluent soccer moms in suburbia, but says nothing about whether Asian American or Korean American perceive about the prestige of the Hyundai brand. As I pointed out, I am well above average in the affluence stats, and I own a Hyundai, so I am hardly trying to bash Hyundai owners (and especially Genesis owners).

If you have anything to say about the Hyundai prestige among Asian and Korean Americans, we would be glad to hear about it, otherwise you may want to start your own thread with your plethora of impressive (useless) statistics.

Sal makes a living (or at least a partial living, not sure) from automotive forums such as this one. What about you, what do you do for a living?

 

[YEH]

The statistics you showed above are from 2011 MY, and you seem to want to mix and match stats from multiple years and multiple models (Accent, Elantra, Sonata, etc) to suit your arguments. You are obviously a shill for Hyundai.

That's b/c that's the data that is available.

So is data from 2011 (a mere year and a half ago) not material?

At least I base my assertions on actual data, unlike you.

Unlike you, I am not trying to make any grandiose claims about Hyundai or any other car manufacturer.

What grandiose claim did I make about Hyundai?

The original point was (made by others) that Asian Americans and even Korean Americans tend to not believe that Hyundai is as prestigious as a Toyota or Honda (not just talking about Camry, Accord, Sonata), and especially so in CA. Why that is true may be complex, but I accept it to be generally true (obviously with individual exceptions). Do you agree or disagree?

I was the one who mostly started that line of thought.

But as I stated prior, Asian-Americans tend to be more conservative when it comes to large purchases like autos and thus tend to be a bit behind the times.

And prestige for the automobile industry among the masses tends to have a 4-5 year lag compared to actual market realities.

I'd say that for most Americans, Lexus is still seen as being more prestigious than Audi, but the marketplace doesn't bear that out.

Audi sells more higher end autos than Lexus these days and has a higher ATP as well (as Lexus' sales increasingly relies more and more on cheaper FWD models like the ES and RX).

All of your other arguments seem to be an attempt to prove that Hyundai is a prestigious brand. I don't really care which is the most prestigious brand, evidenced by the fact that I bought a Hyundai (and apparently you have not).

No - that wasn't my point at all.

Didn't I already state that Hyundai lags a bit in the prestige gap compared to Toyota and Honda?

However, you made the mistake of equating/confusing lower prestige to mean that very poor people buy Hyundais (and small ones at that) - when I pointed out that one of Hyundai's largest markets was NYC.

I just merely corrected your erroneous assertion that Hyundai buyers in NYC were very poor and thus, purchased small Hyundais.

Basically, your just arguing w/ yourself since I was the one who initially brought up the whole Asian-Americans, including Korean-Americans, don't tend to purchase Hyundais, and I also stated that Hyundai still lags behind Honda and Toyota when it comes to prestige, but that's a very different point than stating that very poor people buy Hyundais - b/c the market data doesn't bear that out.

Aside from resorting to ad hominem attacks, you also do the time-honored tradition of trying to confuse others by making claims about the positions of other posters which aren't true and by mish-mashing the issues.

Not surprising that even now (despite all the data) - you have not admitted to your errors when it came to characterizing Hyundai buyers as being very poor (esp. in conjunction with Toyota buyers when it comes to the Camry vs. Sonata and the Elantra vs. the Corolla) and instead, continue to avoid the issue by making additional superficial claims (but this time, making them personal).

 

[Mark_888]

However, you made the mistake of equating/confusing lower prestige to mean that very poor people buy Hyundais (and small ones at that) - when I pointed out that one of Hyundai's largest markets was NYC.

NYC is a very different market, because the most affluent people (those in Manhattan) don't own a car because it is not practical to park one there. I don't think very poor people are buying any new cars. I do think that when you get to Accent and Elantra, given a choice and if cars were equally equipped and priced the same, most buyers would prefer the equivalent Toyota or Honda. But they are not priced the same when they are equipped the same. If they were priced the same, I think there Hyundai sales would suffer to some degree. Many on this forum have noted that the Genesis is probably $10-15K than a comparable car. Admittedly, things are changing, and eventually Hyundai will probably catch up with the Japanese brands in terms of consumer acceptance.

15-20 years ago Samsung and LG (Goldstar) produced junk products, and now they are at the top of the list in many areas. Hyundai is getting there, but has a little ways to go.

 

[Mark_888]

And prestige for the automobile industry among the masses tends to have a 4-5 year lag compared to actual market realities.

I think this is the entire crux of the problem your argument. You seem to equate sales volume with prestige. This is obviously wrong, and in most cases it is upside-down.

Rolls Royce, Bentley, Astin Martin, Mayback, etc are very prestigious cars, but only sell a very small number compared to companies like Hyundai (with 3 million units per year).

I guess this is why we disagree about prestige, and why all of your stats are irrelevant to the subject of prestige.

 

[abraxas]

NYC is a very different market, because the most affluent people (those in Manhattan) don't own a car because it is not practical to park one there. I don't think very poor people are buying any new cars. I do think that when you get to Accent and Elantra, given a choice and if cars were equally equipped and priced the same, most buyers would prefer the equivalent Toyota or Honda. But they are not priced the same when they are equipped the same. If they were priced the same, I think there Hyundai sales would suffer to some degree. Many on this forum have noted that the Genesis is probably $10-15K than a comparable car. Admittedly, things are changing, and eventually Hyundai will probably catch up with the Japanese brands in terms of consumer acceptance.

15-20 years ago Samsung and LG (Goldstar) produced junk products, and now they are at the top of the list in many areas. Hyundai is getting there, but has a little ways to go.

Do either of you even live in NYC? Of course wealthy people own cars here!

 

[KyKernel]

So many stats! Do you know that 68% of statistics are made up, and that this thread has increased that worldwide figure by 1.8 percentage points.

 

[Mark_888]

Do either of you even live in NYC? Of course wealthy people own cars here!

Just to be clear, I said Manhattan, not all of NYC.

I have been to NYC and specifically Manhattan many times. Monthly parking ranges from about $400-$1200 per month, depending on location. The $400 ones are not common and in very undesirable locations, far away from where affluent people live. On the upper east side, expect to pay about $800-$1200 per month for a parking spot, and you will still usually have to walk quite a ways to get there (or take a cab). So extremely wealthy people may have a car (and driver who will get the car and bring it to pick them up), but most just regular wealthy people take cabs, limos, or rent a car if going to the Hamptons.

A couple of years ago, I was traveling on business to Westchester County, north of NYC. I arrived at LaGuardia airport on a Sunday and rented a car, and wanted to stop by the famous Carnegie Deli in NYC before heading out of NYC and up to Westchester County. Got into Manhattan about 8 pm Sunday evening and drove around for 30 minutes looking for a metered parking space. Finally gave up and went to a parking garage about 5 blocks away from the Deli. The (gigantic) corned beef sandwich and soft-drink were about $20 after tax and tip. One hour parking in the garage cost $25. I would never even have tried to drive or park in Manhattan except that it was Sunday evening.

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[my2wins]

Back to topic at hand, I spent 5 days in Portland last week and saw 1 Genesis. 3 days in Seattle and zero.

 

[YEH]

I think this is the entire crux of the problem your argument. You seem to equate sales volume with prestige. This is obviously wrong, and in most cases it is upside-down.

I guess this is why we disagree about prestige, and why all of your stats are irrelevant to the subject of prestige.

ATP is more indicative of that and there is such a things as early-adopters/trend setters.

Prestige among the masses doesn't always reflect reality.

When most people think luxury watches - they think Rolex, but among watch aficionados, a Patek Philippe or a Audemars Piguet hold more sway.

Same thing with audio equipment. Most people think Bose as being the best/most prestigious when audiophiles would laugh at the thought.

For many people, their image of Hyundai is outdated and doesn't reflect the market realities (it takes about 5-6 yrs for it to catch up).

Many people in the US think Lexus is more prestigious than Audi, but Audi has a significantly higher ATP than Lexus and now sells more mid-high end sedans than does Lexus.

Again, I already stated that Toyota has more prestige among the masses, but that doesn't always reflect actual buyers (being that image takes some time to catch up).

Otoh, you are the one who is clearly confusing prestige (or the lack thereof) as being the basis as to whether an automaker sells cheap, small cars.

Do either of you even live in NYC? Of course wealthy people own cars here!

I used to live in Manhattan in one of the most exclusive areas.

The notion that there aren't many car owners in Manhattan is off.

Most of the larger condo buildings have their own parking garage and for those too cheap to pay for it, they know down pat all the street parking sites (and the schedule for street cleaning).

And really, one doesn't have to be immensely wealthy to own a car in Manhattan, much less park it in a garage); knew a lot of young professionals who had cars and parked them in a garage.

And oh, I would see a few Genesis sedans around where I lived (tho no Equus).

 

[Mark_888]

ATP is more indicative of that and there is such a things as early-adopters/trend setters.

Dribble.

Prestige among the masses doesn't always reflect reality.

I am guessing I need to get high to understand what that means. Sounds a little bit like Marxist ideology or some other most-modern obfuscation.

When most people think luxury watches - they think Rolex, but among watch aficionados, a Patek Philippe or a Audemars Piguet hold more sway.

What is a watch aficionado? What about run of the mill multi-millionaires?

Same thing with audio equipment. Most people think Bose as being the best/most prestigious when audiophiles would laugh at the thought.

No one on the planet thinks that Bose makes the best audio equipment, although they "may" be OK in certain limited areas like noise-cancelling headphones.

For many people, their image of Hyundai is outdated and doesn't reflect the market realities (it takes about 5-6 yrs for it to catch up).

Takes a bit longer than that when you start in the hole that Hyundai started out in during the late 1980's when they where the butt of comedian jokes. They only thing that saved them was that Yugo was much worse, and also the 10-year drivetrain warranty helped Hyundai a lot among consumers, and also forced manufacturing to improve quality.

Many people in the US think Lexus is more prestigious than Audi, but Audi has a significantly higher ATP than Lexus and now sells more mid-high end sedans than does Lexus.

Most intelligent people think Lexus is more reliable than Audi. Consumer Reports would whole-heartedly agree with that (as do their subscriber surveys on reliability). It is a question of values, not necessarily prestige. Different people value different things. Personally, a high-end Audi would blow away a Lexus LS in almost every category, but if I were looking to spend $90K I would probably go with the LS because I don't want to spend a lot time taking my car back to the dealer to get it repaired. For some people, time is more important than other factors such as steering response, handling, or even luxury.

Again, I already stated that Toyota has more prestige among the masses, but that doesn't always reflect actual buyers (being that image takes some time to catch up).

Not sure what that means, since Toyota is now the largest automaker in the world based on unit sales (not necessarily total revenue or profit).
http://money.cnn.com/2013/01/28/news/companies/toyota-global-sales/index.html
GM is second. Neither of those brands are particularly prestigious, although certainly Toyota ranks ahead of GM in most cases. Toyotas are considered reliable, which is a very important criteria that many people (although not everyone) uses to decide which car to buy.

Otoh, you are the one who is clearly confusing prestige (or the lack thereof) as being the basis as to whether an automaker sells cheap, small cars.

No, you are the one who suggested that one auto company is more prestigious because it sells more cars. That is obviously false, since the most prestigious brands are the ones that have very low unit volumes. But the average person is not interested in that kind of prestige, because they can't afford the $200K+ entry price, nor can they afford to pay outrageous repair bills, nor can they afford to have extra spare cars on hand while one is in the shop. Besides, as Frank Malloy pointed out in Dress for Success, people who wear silk shirts to work don't get good raises, because their boss will assume they are independently wealthy and don't need the money.

The average person who is into prestige at all (which is not everyone by a long shot) is only interested in micro-prestige, where they can afford to buy a Toyota or Honda over a Hyundai (which is always priced lower for an equivalent model and options/features). Obviously Hyundai has made tremendous strides in the last 5-10 years, but not quite caught up in public opinion, even if they may have caught up in reality. Hyundai will eventually catch-up as the older population who remembers the really bad early Hyundai's that were imported into the US become a much smaller part of the market. But Toyota and Honda are perceived to be more reliable, even if they are not, and reliability is major deciding factor for many.

The Genesis is great car (with a few exceptions like the brake failure, or oil consumption problem on 5.0), but if Hyundai was as prestigious as Toyota or Honda they could get (and would ask) an extra $10K for the Genesis in the US.

 

[rrkhanna]

I live in Pleasanton, CA, & everyday i see at least 4 G's (excluding mine) parked in parking lot.

 

[Mark_888]

The notion that there aren't many car owners in Manhattan is off.

Most of the larger condo buildings have their own parking garage and for those too cheap to pay for it, they know down pat all the street parking sites (and the schedule for street cleaning).

I didn't say that no one in Manhattan owns a car. But the car ownership rate is much, much lower than most areas of the US. Even people who can afford a to buy and park a car find it more convenient to rent one when needed, and if they are going anywhere inside NYC, a taxi or limo is usually more convenient. Who wants to go downstairs and move their car (to avoid it getting towed) every time a street cleaner is scheduled to come buy?

 

[Crusty Old Shellback]

I was out driving around in Brentwood this weekend, up in the multi million dollar homes. There parked in front of one of the houses was a black Genney. Was nice to see one there along with all of the BMW's and MB's.

 

[JasTheAce]

I didn't say that no one in Manhattan owns a car. But the car ownership rate is much, much lower than most areas of the US. Even people who can afford a to buy and park a car find it more convenient to rent one when needed, and if they are going anywhere inside NYC, a taxi or limo is usually more convenient. Who wants to go downstairs and move their car (to avoid it getting towed) every time a street cleaner is scheduled to come buy?

Well more importantly, who is going to buy a nice car and leave it on the streets of New York? If you look at cars that live on the street, they generally have marred front and back bumpers from people who use car bumpers as a parallel parking guide.

 

[EXBMWGUY]

I was out driving around in Brentwood this weekend, up in the multi million dollar homes. There parked in front of one of the houses was a black Genney. Was nice to see one there along with all of the BMW's and MB's.

On topic! . I saw another black G yesterday. 2012-13 V6. I know there are some other R-Specs here in town, but I have not seen another one since I bought mine.

 

[YEH]

I didn't say that no one in Manhattan owns a car. But the car ownership rate is much, much lower than most areas of the US. Even people who can afford a to buy and park a car find it more convenient to rent one when needed, and if they are going anywhere inside NYC, a taxi or limo is usually more convenient. Who wants to go downstairs and move their car (to avoid it getting towed) every time a street cleaner is scheduled to come buy?

And I didn't say that everyone in Manhattan owned a car, much less it having the same rate of car ownership as in suburbia and the rural areas.

But let's not try to deflect/change what was stated (as you so often like to do when cornered).

In your statement...

NYC is a very different market, because the most affluent people (those in Manhattan) don't own a car because it is not practical to park one there.

you make it seem as if car ownership is a rarity in Manhattan when it is not.

Off hand, I would've stated that car ownership in Manhattan was around 25% and after a quick search, it seems like I was pretty close - with it being 23% per housing unit for Manhattan.

Now, considering that there are 846k households in Manhattan, that makes for nearly 200k privately owned cars.

Not exactly a rarity.

As I stated before, pretty much all of the larger condo buildings have their own parking garage; similarly, there's a reason why brownstones with a private parking space command a premium.

As usual, you post as an authority of something you know little about.

I don't think very poor people are buying any new cars. I do think that when you get to Accent and Elantra, given a choice and if cars were equally equipped and priced the same, most buyers would prefer the equivalent Toyota or Honda.

Really, this again?

The ATP of both the Elantra and Sonata are considerably higher than for the Corolla and Camry - so people can easily purchase a comparably equipped Corolla and Camry for the same amount as they would pay for an Elantra or Sonata, but they don't (Corolla and Camry buyers spending less; in fact, for the month of July, the Camry had the lowest ATP out of the 9 top selling midsize sedans).

And furthermore, Kia (not Hyundai) is offering a luxury trim (the SX-L) on their midsizer b/c that's what the market demanded.

Don't see the market demanded a luxury trim for the Camry (or for the Sonata for that matter).

As for the very poor people in NYC, the car ownership rate for the city, overall, is a good bit higher at around 50% - Staten Island having the highest ownership rate (84%) and Queens the next highest (64%) - so there are plenty of the very poor of NYC buying cars.

Many on this forum have noted that the Genesis is probably $10-15K than a comparable car. Admittedly, things are changing, and eventually Hyundai will probably catch up with the Japanese brands in terms of consumer acceptance.

As stated before, the Genesis and Equus are a different situation since while luxury models, they are not being sold under a luxury nameplate at a separate luxury dealer network, hence, Hyundai cannot charge for such things (but neither do they have the cost/expense).

15-20 years ago Samsung and LG (Goldstar) produced junk products, and now they are at the top of the list in many areas. Hyundai is getting there, but has a little ways to go.

Again, perception does not equal market realities.

Samsung and LG dominate or are strong competitors in the TV, cell phone and appliance marketplace in the Americas, Europe, the Middle East and much of Asia, with the exception of Japan.

Both Samsung and LG had pulled out of the cell phone and TV markets in Japan and only recently has Samsung returned with regards to cell phones and LG with regard to TVs (Samsung still has not re-entered the Japanese TV market despite being the no.1 selling brand around the world).

Right now, LG is having modest success in re-entering the TV market with their customers being mostly younger Japanese (while younger Japanese are more open to buying a non-Japanese brand, they also are the group that is less likely to buy a TV in the 1st place).

So by simply looking at the marketplace in Japan, one would think Samsung is nothing compared to Sony, Panasonic, Sharp, Mitsu, Pioneer, NEC, etc. - when in reality, Samsung earns more profit than the Japanese tech giants put together.

 

[Crusty Old Shellback]

SQURRIL!