• Car enthusiast? Join us on Cars Connected! iOS | Android | Desktop
  • Hint: Use a descriptive title for your new message
    If you're looking for help and want to draw people in who can assist you, use a descriptive subject title when posting your message. In other words, "I need help with my car" could be about anything and can easily be overlooked by people who can help. However, "I need help with my transmission" will draw interest from people who can help with a transmission specific issue. Be as descriptive as you can. Please also post in the appropriate forum. The "Lounge" is for introducing yourself. If you need help with your G70, please post in the G70 section - and so on... This message can be closed by clicking the X in the top right corner.

Some more on the Genesis spinoff

It will be interesting to see how this evolves - though it may be tough on those that just bought a 2016 if they do bring out a markedly different car mid year.

There's no guarantee I'll like the 2017 more than the 2016, just because it is different. My wife's 2013 Elantra looks way better than the newly unveiled one. I bought the car because I like how it looks and performs. Having something else newer out there is nice, but doesn't affect me in any way. Kind of like when they make a movie that isn't as good as the book. You still have the book! :D
 
There's no guarantee I'll like the 2017 more than the 2016, just because it is different. My wife's 2013 Elantra looks way better than the newly unveiled one. I bought the car because I like how it looks and performs. Having something else newer out there is nice, but doesn't affect me in any way. Kind of like when they make a movie that isn't as good as the book. You still have the book! :D

Sorry - didn't mean everyone - but some would feel their new car had been relegated to an older design much sooner than expected and might have waited if they knew the G80 was close (assuming that happens).
 
personally, I don't see much of a difference between the dh genesis vs the upcoming g90 equus. there's just not enough premium difference between the two for one to spring 20k extra for one.

hyundai made the dh genesis too darn good to to have any more space for a more premium model.

the premium category is a tough one to crack, even infiniti has stopped putting out the q45, now they use the M series as their flagship.
 
personally, I don't see much of a difference between the dh genesis vs the upcoming g90 equus. there's just not enough premium difference between the two for one to spring 20k extra for one.

hyundai made the dh genesis too darn good to to have any more space for a more premium model.

the premium category is a tough one to crack, even infiniti has stopped putting out the q45, now they use the M series as their flagship.

The EQ900 interior is markedly more premium. Don't get me wrong, the G2 Genesis is really nice, but there is room for improvement in quality of the interior - seats are great, but switch gear and other interior plastics are somewhat subpar for the class they compete in.
 
One of the realities of Hyundai is that they can compete in quality nowadays with no problems whatsoever. With being equated as a luxury car maker? Well, not so much and it isn't because their vehicles are sub-par but rather they are sold in a building that attracts value conscious shoppers along with luxury car shoppers and I think that's part of the issue.

Some people like myself for example appreciate the quality of the Genesis and Equus but also appreciate that similar quality costs thousands less in a Hyundai showroom versus BMW, Audi and Mercedes as well as the Japanese brands.

I am attracted to the brand because of the value proposition and realize that it comes at a price. (Not a lot of fluff like at MB et al) and that's why I appreciate the vehicle. I get a similar driving experience for thousands less.

Extracting that from the equation and putting Genesis in a separate environment may destroy one of the driving forces that makes the Genesis a success in the first place. Value!
 
+1
 
One of the realities of Hyundai is that they can compete in quality nowadays with no problems whatsoever. With being equated as a luxury car maker? Well, not so much and it isn't because their vehicles are sub-par but rather they are sold in a building that attracts value conscious shoppers along with luxury car shoppers and I think that's part of the issue.

Some people like myself for example appreciate the quality of the Genesis and Equus but also appreciate that similar quality costs thousands less in a Hyundai showroom versus BMW, Audi and Mercedes as well as the Japanese brands.

I am attracted to the brand because of the value proposition and realize that it comes at a price. (Not a lot of fluff like at MB et al) and that's why I appreciate the vehicle. I get a similar driving experience for thousands less.

Extracting that from the equation and putting Genesis in a separate environment may destroy one of the driving forces that makes the Genesis a success in the first place. Value!

It may however I believe their goal is to get the brand into the accepted luxury circle which would then bring on more buyers form Mercedes, BMW and Audi. I have a feeling they will always be a better value however they may not be as good a value as they are today once a reputation is developed and price increases are gradually applied. There may be a day when you say you drive a Genesis and they are just as praised if not more than Mercedes/BMW. Reminds me of Lexus in their early stages. ;)
 
There may be a day when you say you drive a Genesis and they are just as praised if not more than Mercedes/BMW. Reminds me of Lexus in their early stages. ;)

As much as I am a fan of the Genesis and its value proposition, that is a stretch.

Although Hyundia's reputation as a value product is at a peak today, that brand perception will stick to the detriment of winning over most prestige brand buyers. Mercedes and BMW may be expensive and not the same value, but both still invest and lead in the automotive world and I do not see them losing the mantle they have held almost since the start.
 
Simply focusing on building bigger, more elaborate sedans will not put Hyundai in the same class as BMW, Mercedes and Audi. Lexus is learning this lesson.

Crucial to the development of a luxury brand are its performance cars and the image they create. While Mercedes bread and butter may be the E350, its the AMG's and SLs that create aura of technological advancement, performance and exclusivity. And generate the most press coverage. These are vehicles people aspire to own.

While most people on this forum seem to be passionate about getting the biggest car with the most "luxury" features at the lowest cost, that doesn't make the Genesis a "luxury" car in the minds of consumers, beyond the bargain conscious. The idea that you can have a true luxury car without performance features like V8 engine, adaptive suspension, etc. is appealing to some, but without these performance features you don't have a luxury car brand. The luxury car market requires them and this is well understood by the German luxury brands and even Lexus, having converted all the old Mercury, Lincoln and Cadillac buyers its going to get, needs the "F" series to try to keep pace with the Germans. Even Cadillac, with its V series gets this.

And dealers don't see the benefit in the Genesis and afford the Genesis buyer no special treatment. They make their money from the Sonatas, etc. and their focus is on making money, today. Why should they spend much time or effort on the Genesis when they sell a few a month and don't make much on the ones they sell because the buyers are so bargain conscious they have researched the bottom line down to the penny?

So Hyundai has it work cut out for them and I wish them the best of luck. But they won't get their with just the "bargain" buyers they are attracting today.
 
... its the AMG's and SLs that create aura of technological advancement, performance and exclusivity. And generate the most press coverage. These are vehicles people aspire to own.
I don't agree with that. It wasn't that long ago that AMG was an after-market company not even owned by MB, and few knew about them. MB and BMW have prestige, which is why people prefer them today. Buying a car in America has for many years mostly been about prestige. You are what you drive.

30 years ago, MB and BMW were prestigious because of their reliability. This was before electronic ignition, fuel injection, and computer controlled engines and transmissions. It was also when lubricants were vastly inferior than those available today.

The average person under 40 simply does not understand how important reliability was before about 1985. Cars did not usually start the first time one turned on the ignition (and simultaneously pumped the gas pedal). Tune-ups (no longer done) were required every 12K miles to replace spark plugs and various parts in the mechanical distributor. American cars (and even Rolls Royce) were no match for the German cars in terms of reliability back then.

Then the Japanese came along and challenged the German reliability for a much lower price. In the mid 1980's, an auto magazine testing the Honda Accord, said it was the first car they have ever tested that could idle indefinitely without overheating (something any car can do these days). Honda and Toyota reliability upped the game, and allowed them start Acura and Lexus brands on the reputation of that reliability, but at a much lower price than the Germans.

These days, MB and BMW have very high levels of engineering, but the industry has caught up in terms of reliability (and in many cases surpassed them), especially when cost of repairs are factored in. The whole nature of the auto industry has changed since MB and BMW built their initial reputations. Back 30 years ago, automakers made virtually all their own components (or owned the subsidiaries that made the components). These days, many engines, transmissions, brake systems, etc are made by separate companies (many spun off from the auto-makers) that supply the same or similar components to many automakers. Technology sharing agreements are widespread in the industry. This has completely changed the game in terms of reliability and functionality of vehicles.

For historical reasons that are slow to change, MB and BMW are still considered prestigious, primarily because they cost more than many other cars. Lexus is still living off their fumes of their incredible reliability when first released, that has now been matched by many other automakers.

As younger generations come into the auto market, there is opportunity for brand perceptions to change, and that has helped Hyundai tremendously after their disastrous entry into the US market in the 1980's. Whether Hyundai can go one step further, and challenge the luxury car market remains to be seen, but it is clear that it is not nearly as difficult as it once was to achieve technical parity with the big players in the luxury market. The real problem is perception, which will always be a big part of the luxury car market. But having substantially lower prices for the same luxury doesn't hurt either.

Don't forget that LeBron James called Kia and he asked them to send him a K900 after driving a courtesy car and really liking it. Not only did they send him one, they signed him to an endorsement deal.
 
For historical reasons that are slow to change, MB and BMW are still considered prestigious, primarily because they cost more than many other cars.

Not so sure about that - a Genesis that was $10-$20K more would not sell. However a BMW that sold for $10-$20K less would not sell less but more.

With prestige comes the ability to appeal less on price and more on aura. An Apple computer costs more than a vanilla PC, but the brand drives the sale, not simply that they are more expensive.
 
Not so sure about that - a Genesis that was $10-$20K more would not sell. However a BMW that sold for $10-$20K less would not sell less but more.

With prestige comes the ability to appeal less on price and more on aura. An Apple computer costs more than a vanilla PC, but the brand drives the sale, not simply that they are more expensive.
I agree with you in the short term, but maybe not the long term.

Take Rolls Royce for example. Before they started using BMW engines (and long before BMW acquired them) they were probably the most expensive production sedan on the market in the 1960's-1980's, but horrible reliability. Yet it has remained one of the most prestigious cars around (at least among the older crowd) because it was very expensive, and reeked of "if you have to ask, you can't afford it".

Obviously, if you take any highly regarded and prestigious car and substantially lower the price in the short term, then people will still buy it, and probably buy a lot more of it. But if that happens over a generation, the prestige value will be substantially diminished, especially if there are other products just as good at the same price.

The one thing that Hyundai Korea understands, is that one has to take the long view. Gaining acceptance of a Hyundai manufactured luxury brand will take time, and only then will patience be rewarded. The Japanese paved the way on this strategy and long term perspective, and the Koreans are very much aware of how long it will take.
 
I am sure that would like to build a whole new car for the debut of the 2017 G80 later in 2016 (effectively the 3rd generation of Genesis sedan). But sometimes we can't always get what we want.

Not suggesting a 3rd Gen - same platform, but just more of an upgrade than the typical, light mid cycle refresh - especially on the interior.
 
I don't agree with that. It wasn't that long ago that AMG was an after-market company not even owned by MB, and few knew about them. MB and BMW have prestige, which is why people prefer them today. Buying a car in America has for many years mostly been about prestige. You are what you drive.

30 years ago, MB and BMW were prestigious because of their reliability. This was before electronic ignition, fuel injection, and computer controlled engines and transmissions. It was also when lubricants were vastly inferior than those available today.

The average person under 40 simply does not understand how important reliability was before about 1985. Cars did not usually start the first time one turned on the ignition (and simultaneously pumped the gas pedal). Tune-ups (no longer done) were required every 12K miles to replace spark plugs and various parts in the mechanical distributor. American cars (and even Rolls Royce) were no match for the German cars in terms of reliability back then.

Then the Japanese came along and challenged the German reliability for a much lower price. In the mid 1980's, an auto magazine testing the Honda Accord, said it was the first car they have ever tested that could idle indefinitely without overheating (something any car can do these days). Honda and Toyota reliability upped the game, and allowed them start Acura and Lexus brands on the reputation of that reliability, but at a much lower price than the Germans.

These days, MB and BMW have very high levels of engineering, but the industry has caught up in terms of reliability (and in many cases surpassed them), especially when cost of repairs are factored in. The whole nature of the auto industry has changed since MB and BMW built their initial reputations. Back 30 years ago, automakers made virtually all their own components (or owned the subsidiaries that made the components). These days, many engines, transmissions, brake systems, etc are made by separate companies (many spun off from the auto-makers) that supply the same or similar components to many automakers. Technology sharing agreements are widespread in the industry. This has completely changed the game in terms of reliability and functionality of vehicles.

For historical reasons that are slow to change, MB and BMW are still considered prestigious, primarily because they cost more than many other cars. Lexus is still living off their fumes of their incredible reliability when first released, that has now been matched by many other automakers.

As younger generations come into the auto market, there is opportunity for brand perceptions to change, and that has helped Hyundai tremendously after their disastrous entry into the US market in the 1980's. Whether Hyundai can go one step further, and challenge the luxury car market remains to be seen, but it is clear that it is not nearly as difficult as it once was to achieve technical parity with the big players in the luxury market. The real problem is perception, which will always be a big part of the luxury car market. But having substantially lower prices for the same luxury doesn't hurt either.

Don't forget that LeBron James called Kia and he asked them to send him a K900 after driving a courtesy car and really liking it. Not only did they send him one, they signed him to an endorsement deal.

What? You never heard of "halo" cars?

Since the LeBron ads came out, are they selling more K900s and fewer Escalades and Lambos? Don't think so.

No, the problem is not perception. Mercedes are better than Chevys, Kias, Hyundais and Fords. Actually, BMWs and Audis are too. Closer tolerances, better quality material, overall fit, finish and paint.

The German luxury car makers are living off their engineering, performance, and the quality of the components they use. When you build a car designed to travel all day at Autoban speeds you make a better car than one designed for I95. All the accessory drives, etc. have to be better.
 
Looking to update and upgrade your Genesis luxury sport automobile? Look no further than right here in our own forum store - where orders are shipped immediately!
What? You never heard of "halo" cars?

Since the LeBron ads came out, are they selling more K900s and fewer Escalades and Lambos? Don't think so.

No, the problem is not perception. Mercedes are better than Chevys, Kias, Hyundais and Fords. Actually, BMWs and Audis are too. Closer tolerances, better quality material, overall fit, finish and paint.

The German luxury car makers are living off their engineering, performance, and the quality of the components they use. When you build a car designed to travel all day at Autoban speeds you make a better car than one designed for I95. All the accessory drives, etc. have to be better.
At one time there was a big gap in reliability of the German cars and Japanese (I am not going to defend American cars, but they have improved), but that is no longer the case according to statistical information captured by Consumer Reports and others.

You can talk all day about the autobahn, but the frequency of repair stats are no longer in the favor of the Germans, and the cost of repairs is so high that very few want to own one after the warranty expires.

I do agree that the Germans have more sophisticated engineering, but that has come back to bite them in terms of reliability, and I believe they are often over-engineered. Many of the components used on German cars (such as ZF transmissions, Mahle oil filtration systems, Continental ABS systems, etc) have been used on the Hyundai Genesis and many other cars.

Regarding LeBron, I was making the point that younger people are more open minded about newer brands, no matter how bad they used to be 30 years ago. I was pointing out that LeBron did not personally mind being seen in a K900, even before he was paid to.
 
A great feat of engineering lasts forever. If all it can do is do it well for short periods of time and then failures occur, then the engineering is not up to par to say the least. Early implementation of complex systems not quite ready for the market combined with corner cutting to keep things at a reasonable price threshold is what has cost the Germans their poor reliability. It used to be Mercedes was something one dreamt about as the purchase costs were astronomical in comparison to todays Mercedes, today everybody owns one. Their quality and robustness went down the toilet in order to get a bigger market shares yet the still hold the "reputation". Just a little searching on the net will confirm the German cars are among the least reliable and most expensive to fix today.
 
At one time there was a big gap in reliability of the German cars and Japanese (I am not going to defend American cars, but they have improved), but that is no longer the case according to statistical information captured by Consumer Reports and others.

You can talk all day about the autobahn, but the frequency of repair stats are no longer in the favor of the Germans, and the cost of repairs is so high that very few want to own one after the warranty expires.

I do agree that the Germans have more sophisticated engineering, but that has come back to bite them in terms of reliability, and I believe they are often over-engineered. Many of the components used on German cars (such as ZF transmissions, Mahle oil filtration systems, Continental ABS systems, etc) have been used on the Hyundai Genesis and many other cars.

Regarding LeBron, I was making the point that younger people are more open minded about newer brands, no matter how bad they used to be 30 years ago. I was pointing out that LeBron did not personally mind being seen in a K900, even before he was paid to.

Sounds like reliability is your thing. But a lot of people with money trade when the warranty is up or the lease ends. For these people, reliability is not an issue at all.

Actually, you sound typical of the current Hyundai Genesis buyer. Its all about the long term value. But for most luxury car buyers of the German cars, its no issue at all. Not even a buying consideration.

That's why its so hard to take business from the Germans. Engineering, performance, fit and finish are what is important.
 
Sounds like reliability is your thing. But a lot of people with money trade when the warranty is up or the lease ends. For these people, reliability is not an issue at all.
You are trying to make this personal. It is nothing of the kind.

Reliability made MB and BMW what they are today. Over the long haul, if the Germans continue to have reliability problems, their brands will eventually be diminished to some degree. They have already opened up a big hole for Lexus to jump in and fill in the luxury car market.
 
At one time there was a big gap in reliability of the German cars and Japanese (I am not going to defend American cars, but they have improved), but that is no longer the case according to statistical information captured by Consumer Reports and others.

You can talk all day about the autobahn, but the frequency of repair stats are no longer in the favor of the Germans, and the cost of repairs is so high that very few want to own one after the warranty expires.

I do agree that the Germans have more sophisticated engineering, but that has come back to bite them in terms of reliability, and I believe they are often over-engineered. Many of the components used on German cars (such as ZF transmissions, Mahle oil filtration systems, Continental ABS systems, etc) have been used on the Hyundai Genesis and many other cars.

Regarding LeBron, I was making the point that younger people are more open minded about newer brands, no matter how bad they used to be 30 years ago. I was pointing out that LeBron did not personally mind being seen in a K900, even before he was paid to.

You nailed it again..... :=) fully agree
 
Back
Top