Support for suspension issues

[akuma]

There is no structural rigidity issue w/ the Genesis. Stop grasping at straws.

i believe there's no structural rigidity issue with your particular Genesis, and i definitely believe there was no structural rigidity issue with the car that Wendell Collins was fine tuning by the seat of his pants. he would have had to relax his settings if there was. but how do you explain this?

http://www.genesisowners.com/hyundai-genesis-forum/showthread.php?t=2666

a 6 week old thread (not very old relatively) with roughly 19 owners saying the suspension/ride was unacceptable and 17 saying it was acceptable. there were a few people making comments without participating in the poll, and i just added Mark888 (who rejected the poll) to the unacceptable column, and TJPark01 just said I love turtles so i put him in the acceptable column. Genesis380 didn't explicitly vote, but has complained enough in other threads, so i added him as well. Kaberle, the OP, probably has a different number than i do, but we'll just have to hear from him. i'll throw you and Wendell Collins in as well to the acceptable column for an even 50/50 ratio. of course this thread was on the suspension forum so maybe a great majority of owners didn't even read/vote on the poll. but even then, that doesn't mean that a good percentage of them didn't have issues with the ride/suspension/vehicle structure.

well there you have it. i don't know how many owners are registered on this site, my guess is less than 1000 (out of roughly 20,000 genesis owners in North America). 19 owners is a bit more than just saying it's the same usual suspects complaining over and over again. there surely must be some difference between acceptable and unacceptable. even some of the people that voted acceptable qualified their vote indicating that they were close to the line of unacceptable. of course it applies the other way as well. but the range is too big to just chalk it up to subjective perception of the ride. i really believe that their cars are different, especially at the extremes (my genny rides great over all surfaces/roads vs. this is the worst riding car in 50 years). how do you explain the difference?

the only hypothesis i have left is the variation of the steel used in each Genesis. recycled steel contains too many varying amounts of contaminants (particular copper) as well as original source metal (steel cans, tea kettles, ship hulls, sashimi knives, water heaters, steel chairs discarded by the WWE, scrap from cash 4 clunkers) to be exactly the same in each application as opposed to steel made from virgin iron ore from one location. the suspension/shocks/springs/dampers/bushings will all be calibrated the same, but if the bodyframe is different (torsional rigidity, tensile strength of the steel, even weight/density of the steel), of course the ride will be different. as Sherlock Holmes said, "Whenever you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable must be the truth." it could be something else entirely, but i can't think of it.

 

[GripperDon]

Here is my take on all of this. It is actually based on work that was done when I ran the Mechanical Engineering Department of the Bendix Research Laboratories developing on the fly electronically controlled magnetostrictive ferro fluid, shocks back in the late 70 / early 80's. We did a lot of design work coupled with many hundred of hours of road testing. We used accelerometers not butts to make measurements.

Remember this is all in my opinion, your mileage may vary!

The Springs are of TOO high a rate and linear not progressive.

PLUS the bi-valved damper step is TOO wide in the orifice from one to the other and the sharp flow orifice is TOO small.

Wendell doesn't know what he is doing with his weight and a bunch a buddies they have loaded the Genesis to almost the load limit which gets you tripping from the sharp flow (small) orifice to large quicker same reason that the V8 and it's tranny (heaver) have a tendency to ride better and older cars (whose bushing's are broken in a softer ) also tend to ride better.

In my opinion the structural variations due to any suspension of steel quality is a red herring.

This car needs a change in these items, and those are the items that were reported in Motor Trend to have been change to "Stiffen up" the Genesis for the US market. Now if they will just offer the origional parts as a "Customer Satisfaction" low cost retrofit Hyundai could build a reputation rather than tear it down by ignoring the problem or worse yet insisting it performes as designed WHICH IT DOES, it's just designed wrong! Remember IMO.

 

[Genesis380]

GripperDon, I 100% agree with your assessment.

The Genesis has an exceptionally stiff structure; however butt-testing a suspension system on a track is so primitive that it is almost laughable. Judging by the attention to detail of all the other aspects of the Genesis, Hyundai obviously spent a fortune engineering the Genesis, which makes it even more incomprehensible that a post-design engineering team was allowed to get away with this back-yard "butt testing".

In fact, it is flabbergasting. The suspension is way out of spec and in addition to being very harsh, the "natural frequency" is wrong. It seems out of phase and these motions obviously have a physiological effect on some people. It is also strange that the suspension seems to change dynamically. Sometimes it is smooth and other times it is very hard over the same surfaces. I find that the soft Comfortreds compensate somewhat for the harshness, but there is still the unnatural dynamic sensation that seems to draw one’s attention to the abnormal ride characteristics.

Regretfully, I don’t get the warm and fuzzies that Hyundai is going to do anything about this.

 

[Mark_888]

And, I would like you to point out to me where I, in your words, "you go around bashing a former Genesis owner about being obsessed". I've not said that anyone was obsessed; that's your word. It would help you (and us) to get facts before YOU start unjustly/incorrectly criticizing anyone else. Maybe there are others who are "fixated" in the subject; at present I'm only aware of one.

My mistake. It was Seattle Genesis who used the word "obssessed", and I posted a "composite" reply to serveral people even though I only quoted you. I should have not done that.

As far as the rest of your comments. I don't really understand what you are saying (but probably doesn't matter at this point). If you were to read all 900+ of my posts and have a problem with them, then I shall be glad to defend them (or retract them if you prove that I am wrong) upon your review.

 

[Seattle Genesis]

anyone remember this video?
YouTube - Interview, Wendell Collins, Genesis, Hyundai 2009.
yes, mr. seat-of-the-pants.
anyway, the interviewer actually asks some good questions. the engineer actually prefaces that vehicle structure (structural integrity to the body frame, including high strength steel) is the first consideration before any suspension tuning is done. so my theory is that the use of recycled scrap steel as opposed to virgin steel in the chassis and body of the Genesis leads to inconsistent torsional rigidity, therefore leading to inconsistent ride quality when mated with the suspension. all this changing of shocks, springs, tires and wheels won't make much of a difference, if there is an underlying structural integrity issue with the car that isn't addressed.

Wendall needs to find another job.

 

[doug725]

I wonder how common this seat of pants tuning is? I read just a couple months ago an interview with a female engineer (and now of course I can't remember the automaker she works for) and she talked a lot about how the suspension engineering/tweaking is done by gut feeling/instinct - she describd it as an art not so much a science. Things that make you go hmmmm.....

GripperDon, I 100% agree with your assessment.

The Genesis has an exceptionally stiff structure; however butt-testing a suspension system on a track is so primitive that it is almost laughable. Judging by the attention to detail of all the other aspects of the Genesis, Hyundai obviously spent a fortune engineering the Genesis, which makes it even more incomprehensible that a post-design engineering team was allowed to get away with this back-yard "butt testing".

In fact, it is flabbergasting. The suspension is way out of spec and in addition to being very harsh, the "natural frequency" is wrong. It seems out of phase and these motions obviously have a physiological effect on some people. It is also strange that the suspension seems to change dynamically. Sometimes it is smooth and other times it is very hard over the same surfaces. I find that the soft Comfortreds compensate somewhat for the harshness, but there is still the unnatural dynamic sensation that seems to draw one’s attention to the abnormal ride characteristics.

Regretfully, I don’t get the warm and fuzzies that Hyundai is going to do anything about this.

 

[Pwrplay]

Man I hope the Canadian guys didn't tune the Genesis suspension the way Wendell Collins did. Judging by the ride in my Genny, I'd say they left it alone. I have no complaints whatsoever with the ride. My wife and I, as well as anyone els who has driven with me says what a nice ride it has.

Any Canadian owners having issues with their suispension?

 

[dataguy]

I hope what I'm about to say is reasonable, and not thought of as throwing fuel on the fire. I'm trying to be as objective as possible, recognizing that some feel very strongly and nearly all of us have paid a large amount of money for this car. Here goes:

Internet forums and non-scientific polls are not reliable measures of anything. Certainly, they can be an indicator, but anything where the respondent has to seek out a place to voice their opinion is suspect. It's also problematic because generally speaking, usage patterns and accessibility of the Internet can vary widely for many reasons.

Aside from selection bias, the sample size is not statistically valid. I've seen people here cherry pick data and draw conclusions that might just as easily be a fluke. That's not to say that they couldn't be correct in their conclusions, just that the methodology of coming to them is flawed.

There's additional bias in that personal experience weighs heavily in one's willingness to accept something that is contrary to their own experience. So if I'm not experiencing a problem, I might be more willing to assume that my experience is typical, when it might be the exception.

It's also a possibility that some people may not have even considered that there was an issue with the suspension until it's pointed out that some think there is. That alone might convince them that there is a problem where there is none. Start scratching your head a lot in a crowded elevator and witness the reaction.

It also could be that the observed data simply indicates that there is no conclusion. Maybe it is just personal preference on whether you like a firm ride or not. Maybe it's just personal comparison with previous cars and knowledge about the ride or handling of other cars.

Perhaps there is a quality control problem, design change, material defect that affects some cars but not others. I'll suggest that while it might be interesting to try to trace the observations back to a cause (i.e. manufacturing date, model, passenger load, whatever), that without the necessary combination of statistically valid data, precise understanding of the engineering and manufacturing variables that none of us are privy to, and analysts knowledgeable in this type of analysis, there's a slim chance of reaching the right conclusion. It's like trying to find the precise cause of global warming. You might be able to tell a good story that will make logical and emotional sense, but it needs hold up under scientific scrutiny.

With that said, it's not worthless to even try to make sense of this issue, but neither the "acceptable" or "unacceptable" camps can claim they know the truth or that they're representative of the problem or lack of a problem.

 

[Genesis380]

Just looked through the Genesis TSB's on the Hyundai Service Website http://www.hmaservice.com and a suspension system (SS) TSB came out today:09-SS-002 REAR HUB AND DRIVE SHAFT ISOLATION WASHER INSTALLATION PROCEDURE
It has nothing to do with ride issues, (fixes a drivetrain clunk) but it is hopeful that Hyundai ARE responding to suspension-related problems.
I think everyone on this board who is unhappy with the ride should call Hyundai and file a complaint, and get a case number. The more complaints they get, the greater the chance they may come out with a TSB. The customer service number is (800) 633-5151

 

[akuma]

i think people are blaming the wrong guy regarding Wendell Collins. yes, seat-in-the-pants testing does seem low tech, but i don't think he does that with every Genesis that rolls off the production line; once he finishes the testing, they apply those suspension settings to every Genesis that's built. actually, if he did test every single Genesis, maybe we wouldn't have so many complaints with the ride/suspension because everyone would get a Genesis with the originally intended ride.

in the video he says that a few years ago, he would have had to lower the settings of the suspension (making the car less sporty AND less comfortable) because of the limitations of vehicle structure technology. it seems the 2010 Genesis may end up getting those relaxed settings anyway, so this might help some of the cars that come off the line, while adversely affecting many cars that didn't need it in the first place.

also, just because a car has a stiff ride, doesn't necessarily mean that the car has proper torsional rigidity and doesn't suffer from body flex. it appears the flexing of the body is what would contribute to harshness, porpoising, bouncing, body roll, etc, not allowing the suspension to work properly in absorbing bumps or handling directional changes.

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[Mark_888]

i think people are blaming the wrong guy regarding Wendell Collins. yes, seat-in-the-pants testing does seem low tech, but i don't think he does that with every Genesis that rolls off the production line; once he finishes the testing, they apply those suspension settings to every Genesis that's built. actually, if he did test every single Genesis, maybe we wouldn't have so many complaints with the ride/suspension because everyone would get a Genesis with the originally intended ride.

in the video he says that a few years ago, he would have had to lower the settings of the suspension (making the car less sporty AND less comfortable) because of the limitations of vehicle structure technology. it seems the 2010 Genesis may end up getting those relaxed settings anyway, so this might help some of the cars that come off the line, while adversely affecting many cars that didn't need it in the first place.

also, just because a car has a stiff ride, doesn't necessarily mean that the car has proper torsional rigidity and doesn't suffer from body flex. it appears the flexing of the body is what would contribute to harshness, porpoising, bouncing, body roll, etc, not allowing the suspension to work properly in absorbing bumps or handling directional changes.

Everything that I have heard from Hyundai (publicly and off-the-record) is that the spring and shock rates adjustments will not alter the nature of the ride. The problem is not simply that the current suspension being too stiff, it is just not tuned properly and the there are certain resonances that get exacerbated when they should be damped.

So before people start jumping to conclusions about how the 2010 suspension adjustments will ruin the car and turn it into a boat, maybe they should just wait for a test drive. As Car and Driver noted in their video review of the 2009 Genesis (posted many times on this forum), both BMW's and Infiniti M have a firmer ride than the Genesis, but they both do a much better job than the Genesis of keeping the car in control on rough roads.

 

[Yama1yzf]

The problem is not simply that the current suspension being too stiff, it is just not tuned properly and the there are certain resonances that get exacerbated when they should be damped.

Probably the most reasonable description of the characterisitcs of the suspension I have read.........medical conditions, cars made out of beer cans, seat cushions too firm etc. It's gotten just plain silly.

 

[SterlingDave]

The problem is not simply that the current suspension being too stiff, it is just not tuned properly and the there are certain resonances that get exacerbated when they should be damped.

Probably the most reasonable description of the characterisitcs of the suspension I have read.........medical conditions, cars made out of beer cans, seat cushions too firm etc. It's gotten just plain silly.

Hey? What kind of beer cans?

 

[CanukV6]

Any Canadian owners having issues with their suispension?

Yes, the 'issues' are there, but only on certain surfaces and at certain speeds and seem to be worse at lower temperatures. Not sure where you are in Ontario, but if in the Toronto area try driving West on Matheson Blvd. from Hwy.10/Hurontario at the posted speed limit. If your car has any suspension problems, that piece of road will certainly show it up.
I have 35k Km on my Genesis now and really love it, but I do hope they fix these annoying suspension issues.

 

[Mark_888]

Hey? What kind of beer cans?

That quote about the beer cans (in italics) did not come from me. I guess some people don't know how to use the quote button correctly.

 

[GripperDon]

Good this is getting Silly, It's not the suspension it's the tuning of the suspension ? Seat of the pants is a good method?, Well tell that to GM where at the Tech Center way back in the 80's I was watching them use computers to gather data from anthaphomoric dummies as they drove the test mules over various kinda of roads (Belgian blocks etc . they had all the data from differing setups stored in a data base and even at that time were working on correlating to human testers. I would imagine by now they can input vehicle weight. centers of gravity, mechanical dimension of suspension parts, electronic characteristics of the vehicle, speed, road type and out spits spring rates etc for match up with existing parts.

Man this stuff is done very well. I designed seatbelt systems for Commercial airliners, we only crashed one air liner body, from then on we had data for the madymo program and combined with programs regarding the characteristics of the occupant and the seat and the seat belt the computer did the best job of maxing out everything. No seat of the pants to tell you haow your Aib Bag feel when you crash at 30mph.

This trivializing of this very real problem is not the best we can do.

 

[SterlingDave]

That quote about the beer cans (in italics) did not come from me. I guess some people don't know how to use the quote button correctly.

Goodness gracious, Mark, I hate that you were quoted for the beer can statement. Hope no one thinks ill of you for my faux pas.

I'm so embarrassed for being the only one in this forum to ever misuse the quote button.

 

[Mark_888]

Goodness gracious, Mark, I hate that you were quoted for the beer can statement. Hope no one thinks ill of you for my faux pas.

I'm so embarrassed for being the only one in this forum to ever misuse the quote button.

I never said you mis-used the quote button. I said "some people don't know how to use the quote button correctly." In this case that person was Yama1yzf and you merely quoted his post.

 

[LLT]

Well, as I've posted before I've had a humming/drone in my front suspension since I bought it 2-3 months ago. It's been to several dealers and it was actually Toyota that led me in the right direction (bushings.) I finally bit the bullet and decided since Hyundai was of NO help whatsoever, I'd have to eat the cost and just start throwing parts at it. Not preferred, but cheaper than taking an enormous loss on trade.

I ordered new upper control arms, lower tension bar, lower control arm and sway bar bushings for the left side of the vehicle. Completely tore apart the left front, replaced all of the components, torqued to spec and much to my pleasure - the noise in the left front is gone. The downside is, now that it is, I'm able to hear a noise (to much a lesser degree) in the RIGHT front that resonates through the frame... I verified it was the right side by driving on patched road (left side is newly paved, right side is rough) -- when moving the right side of the vehicle to the smooth side, the noise disappeared. So, I'm going to replace the right lower control arm and I believe that will completely solve the problem.

I'm utterly disgusted at Hyundai's incompetence and poor customer service throughout this. Three dealers and a factory rep -- none could resolve it and called it "normal." With the help of a Toyota tech giving me the idea, I've finally identified the problem, resolved it on the left side and will be able to resolve it on the right as well. My theory is, the control arms were over-torqued at the factory - I couldn't even break one of the bolts free with a large breaker bar (it's supposed to be torqued at 115lbs) - I ended up having to break out the 500ft/lb impact wrench to get it loose. This compressed the bushing, decreasing its overall effectiveness. In fact, the tension bar bushing was torn.

Happy it's nearly over, but disappointed it's cost ME so much money to resolve and Hyundai has been so utterly useless. It will be my last flying H vehicle, that's for sure.

As an aside - the torsion arm has a slightly different part number and it could just be my imagination, but the bushing appears slightly thicker (this could also be because the old one was torqued way beyond spec.) I'm wondering if there wasn't a production change at one point and I got the new part this time around.

 

[Genesis380]

I wonder if other suspension components have been overtorqued, compressing the bushings. If the torquing is inconsistent from car to car, this could possibly explain the hard ride and the ride variances between cars.
Incredible that Hyundai couldn't diagnose this, but my dealer experiences haven't been good either. They don't seem to know anything about the Genesis and don't seem to want to find out either.
How are they going to sell a $50K Equus? Anyone paying that amount of money for a car is going to DEMAND a much higher level of service.