Very Load Knock and Smoke on cold Start

Fast454

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Car is in the Shop now we will see what they come ujp with.
Hi...my 2009 Genesis is in the shop with similar issues at 42K miles. The left bank lifters were changed at 38K miles. Helped the occassional ticking...but still ocassionally it would lifter click upon start both cold and hot start conditions. The dealer had misfiring codes this time so they checked deeper...the left bank oil control valve to the cam phasers was bad. They are waiting for the part now...3-5 days!! Come on Hyundai...parts should be avaliable overnight...not 3-5 days!! Get with it.

Hope this solves the problem. I like to car and am considering a 2013 R spec as the replacement.
 

Mark_888

Registered Member
13,335
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Genesis Model Type
1G Genesis Sedan (2009-2014)
Had a wonderful report from my "Service Tech Laura" - remember the car was towed because it didn't run and the service light was on - Laura said: At this time vehicle does not have any engine noise, yes the codes came up for P0300 random misfire / P030 misfire cyl #3 / P040 misfire cyl #4 / P060 misfire cyl #6 - Vehicle is not misfiring. - Recommend oil change to inspect aftermarket oil filter installation. - Performed oil service with mobil 1. - Filter was aftermarket but was approved to be of the correct materials. Cleared codes, started vehicle, no noise present and no misfires detected. operation is normal.

All I can say is WOW! what a crock of crap. I guess we're trying to avoid a recall.
AFAIK all 4.6 Tau engines are affected by this condition, which intially happens when the engine is shut off before fully warmed up, and then restarted later when cold. So you may be right that Hyundai doesn't want a recall, but not even sure they have a fix for it (but not sure they don't either). If a fix were available, it would probably be a brand new engine.

One thing I would advise, especially for those who live in colder weather and not leasing, is to use synthetic oil, which probably helps prevent the problem.
 
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Fast454

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Hi...my 2009 Genesis is in the shop with similar issues at 42K miles. The left bank lifters were changed at 38K miles. Helped the occassional ticking...but still ocassionally it would lifter click upon start both cold and hot start conditions. The dealer had misfiring codes this time so they checked deeper...the left bank oil control valve to the cam phasers was bad. They are waiting for the part now...3-5 days!! Come on Hyundai...parts should be avaliable overnight...not 3-5 days!! Get with it.

Hope this solves the problem. I like to car and am considering a 2013 R spec as the replacement.

Update: the cam phaser oil control valve was replaced and seemed OK for a day. Then it hit again....some symptoms...mis-fires below 1500 RPM. Did not want to risk engine damage...dealer had it flat bed towed to the dealership. It sure seems like the engine ECU that controls the cam phasers is either getting bad cam position feedback...or....the ECU is defective. Either way the dealer is going to dig deeper on Monday. I will advise the outcome when more is known.
 

Big Ben

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Update: the cam phaser oil control valve was replaced and seemed OK for a day. Then it hit again....some symptoms...mis-fires below 1500 RPM. Did not want to risk engine damage...dealer had it flat bed towed to the dealership. It sure seems like the engine ECU that controls the cam phasers is either getting bad cam position feedback...or....the ECU is defective. Either way the dealer is going to dig deeper on Monday. I will advise the outcome when more is known.
Thanks for keeping us updated! I had the oil and oil filter changed in my car on Saturday (12/3). I do not think they checked any codes on my engine as they did not even top up all fluids as promised. The service tech also informed me there are no recalls, software updates, etc. from Hyundia.
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Fast454

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Update: the cam phaser oil control valve was replaced and seemed OK for a day. Then it hit again....some symptoms...mis-fires below 1500 RPM. Did not want to risk engine damage...dealer had it flat bed towed to the dealership. It sure seems like the engine ECU that controls the cam phasers is either getting bad cam position feedback...or....the ECU is defective. Either way the dealer is going to dig deeper on Monday. I will advise the outcome when more is known.
Update #2 as of 7-Dec-2011: The dealer Tech checked codes and had some new ones. After the tech confered with Hyundai Tech folks...they concluded to change the left bank intake cam phaser and the chain tensioner for same. Frankly...I don't think this is going to cure the problem. It seems more like a control or position feedback / control issue. We shall see. I am losing faith in Hyundai Tech Service to diagnose and cure the problems. If they do not get it this time....I am going to start action to have this car replaced as a lemon. I am an engineer and 30+ year member of SAE. I've developed engines for years. The Hyundai folks have not been able to answer the questions to my satisfaction. It sure seems like they are throwing darts. The local dealer guys are at the mercy of the Hyundai techs. The dealer guys are just parts changers with very little diagnostic skills to find root causes and solve the problems. Very frustrating.
 

rwalt1080

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I have not purchased my next car as of yet, but my research here and on other forums has moved the Genesis to the top of my list. I'm going out to test drive the V6 and V8 versions this afternoon and would welcome the opinion of owners regarding this issue. I live in Manhattan and garage my vehicle at a nearby commercial garage. The 50 or more cars are constantly started and stopped briefly as the two-story puzzle game of getting access to particular cars is played. The facility is underground so it isn't bitter cold but certainly does get chilly in the winter. Given this fact of city life, am I wiser to focus on the V6 to avoid potential problems? I scanned the V6 threads and don't find any similar cold start issues. I'd be happy to run synthetic oil but I'm not sure it would be enough to prevent issues. Thanks in advance for your opinions!
 

Fast454

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Update #2 as of 7-Dec-2011: The dealer Tech checked codes and had some new ones. After the tech confered with Hyundai Tech folks...they concluded to change the left bank intake cam phaser and the chain tensioner for same. Frankly...I don't think this is going to cure the problem. It seems more like a control or position feedback / control issue. We shall see. I am losing faith in Hyundai Tech Service to diagnose and cure the problems. If they do not get it this time....I am going to start action to have this car replaced as a lemon. I am an engineer and 30+ year member of SAE. I've developed engines for years. The Hyundai folks have not been able to answer the questions to my satisfaction. It sure seems like they are throwing darts. The local dealer guys are at the mercy of the Hyundai techs. The dealer guys are just parts changers with very little diagnostic skills to find root causes and solve the problems. Very frustrating.
Update #3 as of Sat 10-Dec-2011. DEaler guys are still waiting on parts. It is supposed to be ready by next Tuesday 13-Dec-2011///we shall see. I have called and talked to Hyundai "care center". I asked to talk to someone who is technically competent, but to no avail. These folks are pleasant enough but simply quote the script and offer condolences for the problem encountered. I went up the food chain to supervisor level and strongly requested to have the region service guy call me to discuss. He finally did and was very, very rude and unhelpful. Could not answer any technical questions and refused to discuss the issues...he told me to talk to the dealer. This guy needs to go live under a rock and never be allowed to insult customers again. My dealer is a friend whose people are doing everything possible to resolve and correct the issues...but...they are at the mercy of Hyundai Techs who seem to not be able to find the root causes of my issues. The dealer is holding up their end of the deal but Hyundai is not in my opinion. ARE YOU LISTENING HYUNDAI??
I was considering a 2013 R Spec....but not now. I am done after being insulted by this regional service moron. Simply no excuse.
 
I have not purchased my next car as of yet, but my research here and on other forums has moved the Genesis to the top of my list. I'm going out to test drive the V6 and V8 versions this afternoon and would welcome the opinion of owners regarding this issue. I live in Manhattan and garage my vehicle at a nearby commercial garage. The 50 or more cars are constantly started and stopped briefly as the two-story puzzle game of getting access to particular cars is played. The facility is underground so it isn't bitter cold but certainly does get chilly in the winter. Given this fact of city life, am I wiser to focus on the V6 to avoid potential problems? I scanned the V6 threads and don't find any similar cold start issues. I'd be happy to run synthetic oil but I'm not sure it would be enough to prevent issues. Thanks in advance for your opinions!
I'd say don't do it except...
The start/off cycle can't be good for any car. It can't possibly be the 4.6 only that's effected by this, it just happens to be a Genny forum. Anyway, not everyone experiences this, and I'd suggest the problem isn't widespread.
My real advice, under your circumstances? Buy a beater until you get to the burbs.
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TJPark01

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I have not purchased my next car as of yet, but my research here and on other forums has moved the Genesis to the top of my list. I'm going out to test drive the V6 and V8 versions this afternoon and would welcome the opinion of owners regarding this issue. I live in Manhattan and garage my vehicle at a nearby commercial garage. The 50 or more cars are constantly started and stopped briefly as the two-story puzzle game of getting access to particular cars is played. The facility is underground so it isn't bitter cold but certainly does get chilly in the winter. Given this fact of city life, am I wiser to focus on the V6 to avoid potential problems? I scanned the V6 threads and don't find any similar cold start issues. I'd be happy to run synthetic oil but I'm not sure it would be enough to prevent issues. Thanks in advance for your opinions!
Any car you buy is going to have some mechanical or cosmetic issue that you're going to have to address, there's no geeing around it. This is an isolated event, don't get spooked by reading these forums. If you are in the mkt to spend 40k on a car the Genesis is a great choice. Both V6 and V8 models may have different maintenance issues, there's just no way to predict the future.
 

homeofstone

Registered Member
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Athens, Georgia, USA
I'd say don't do it except...
The start/off cycle can't be good for any car. It can't possibly be the 4.6 only that's effected by this, it just happens to be a Genny forum. Anyway, not everyone experiences this, and I'd suggest the problem isn't widespread.
My real advice, under your circumstances? Buy a beater until you get to the burbs.
Ditto...
 

Mark_888

Registered Member
13,335
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Genesis Model Type
1G Genesis Sedan (2009-2014)
I have not purchased my next car as of yet, but my research here and on other forums has moved the Genesis to the top of my list. I'm going out to test drive the V6 and V8 versions this afternoon and would welcome the opinion of owners regarding this issue. I live in Manhattan and garage my vehicle at a nearby commercial garage. The 50 or more cars are constantly started and stopped briefly as the two-story puzzle game of getting access to particular cars is played. The facility is underground so it isn't bitter cold but certainly does get chilly in the winter. Given this fact of city life, am I wiser to focus on the V6 to avoid potential problems? I scanned the V6 threads and don't find any similar cold start issues. I'd be happy to run synthetic oil but I'm not sure it would be enough to prevent issues. Thanks in advance for your opinions!
Some will disagree with my post, but here goes:

This particular problem has only been reported on the 4.6 Tau engine (not the Genesis 3.8 Lambda V6). The Hyundai V6 Lambda engine has been around for a fair number of years in previous Hyundai's and Kia's (although some version had smaller displacement), and most likely the major kinks have been worked out. As you are probably aware the 4.6 Tau was new for 2009 model year and not sure if it has been modified since then (except for the 5.0 version). Not sure if any 2012 4.6 or 5.0 owners have reported this problem, but obviously there have been reports of this problem from early Genesis model years.

I know this has been stated before, but it appears that the problem is that when the 4.6 engine is cold started and shut off before it warms up, then certain internal engine components are apparently not returned to the correct position for a restart, and a misfire occurs. Not sure if this is values, lifters, or what, but that is what has been reported, and it may not be so easy for Hyundai to fix existing engines. But if you make sure that engine is completely warmed up before you shut it off (and don't forget), then you probably will not have any issues.

My personal guess is that the engine relies on gravity for these engine components to return to correct position after shut off, since it seems to only be a problem with shutting off the engine before it warms up, but also some who parked their car on steep slopes also reported the problem.

Since this problem does not happen on the 3.8 V6, if you find 333 HP suitable after a test drive, it should be fine (although the GDI feature of the 3.8 L is new for 2012). The worst I have heard about with the 2012 3.8 and 5.0 is some minor GDI noise that cannot be heard from inside the car, and maybe some occasional rough idle at cold startup (but no misfires). I have not had any problems with my 2009 V6, and I do use Mobil 1 0W-30 (Mobil 1 0W-20, or Mobil 1 5w-20 probably better for cooler climates). Other quality brand synthetics should also work well.

If you absolutely want a V8, I would probably wait for the Genesis (non R-Spec) 5.0 that is now on the Hyundai website. Not sure how many are available at dealers yet. The reason I say that is they did obviously make some changes to the internals of the 4.6 to make it a 5.0, and maybe they had a chance to fix this problem in the process. It appears likely that the 4.6 engine will no longer be offered when the Genesis 5.0 is shipping in quantity (but not 100% sure about that).
 
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Mark_888

Registered Member
13,335
121
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Genesis Model Type
1G Genesis Sedan (2009-2014)
Update: the cam phaser oil control valve was replaced and seemed OK for a day. Then it hit again....some symptoms...mis-fires below 1500 RPM. Did not want to risk engine damage...dealer had it flat bed towed to the dealership. It sure seems like the engine ECU that controls the cam phasers is either getting bad cam position feedback...or....the ECU is defective. Either way the dealer is going to dig deeper on Monday. I will advise the outcome when more is known.
Once you get some misfires, it is possible that engine parts have been damaged (bent, etc) making it more likely that misfires will occur in the future, even if you don't shut off the engine when it is still cold.
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rwalt1080

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I'd say don't do it except...
The start/off cycle can't be good for any car. It can't possibly be the 4.6 only that's effected by this, it just happens to be a Genny forum. Anyway, not everyone experiences this, and I'd suggest the problem isn't widespread.
My real advice, under your circumstances? Buy a beater until you get to the burbs.
Had to chuckle when I read your post - my wife is definitely from the "dahling I love you but give me Park Avenue" school of thought, so a move to the burbs is not in the cards. While garage life is not ideal for a car, it definitely beats the alternative of street parking.

I had an enjoyable visit to Atlantic Hyundai out on the island yesterday and had an opportunity to drive the V6 and the R Spec. While the pure thrust available with the R Spec reminded me of a spin behind the wheel of my brother in law's C6 Vette, it really is much more than my driving habits require. The V6 had plenty of pep when asked, albeit after the brief lag frequently cited on these forums. It is easy to see how owners of both power plants so enthuastically tout this great car.
 

Fast454

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Update #3 as of Sat 10-Dec-2011. DEaler guys are still waiting on parts. It is supposed to be ready by next Tuesday 13-Dec-2011///we shall see. I have called and talked to Hyundai "care center". I asked to talk to someone who is technically competent, but to no avail. These folks are pleasant enough but simply quote the script and offer condolences for the problem encountered. I went up the food chain to supervisor level and strongly requested to have the region service guy call me to discuss. He finally did and was very, very rude and unhelpful. Could not answer any technical questions and refused to discuss the issues...he told me to talk to the dealer. This guy needs to go live under a rock and never be allowed to insult customers again. My dealer is a friend whose people are doing everything possible to resolve and correct the issues...but...they are at the mercy of Hyundai Techs who seem to not be able to find the root causes of my issues. The dealer is holding up their end of the deal but Hyundai is not in my opinion. ARE YOU LISTENING HYUNDAI??
I was considering a 2013 R Spec....but not now. I am done after being insulted by this regional service moron. Simply no excuse.
Update #4 as of 15-Dec-2011. Car still at the dealer. The changed the LH intake cam phaser and the LH intake chain tensioner on 13-Dec. Hyundai tech call the dealer just prior to starting the engine after changing the parts. They directed the dealer to dis-assemble the engine again and crank it without firing the engine and to observe if the chain tensioner took the slack out of the chain. This is not written in any service manual or online proceedure fro Hyundai, just "tribal knowledge" within Hyundai it seems. The theory is that there is an oil pressure check valve in the chain tensioner that must be oil charged to retain tension on the chain. If there is slack, then the cam timing is not correct and mis-fires result. Imagine that! I told the surley regional service guy that I thought the cams were out of postion due to bad position feedback....in theory this is what was occuring. We shall see...supposed to get the car back tomorrow 16-Dec-2011. The dealer guys want to drive it for a day or so to verify if it is OK or not.
 

homeofstone

Registered Member
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Athens, Georgia, USA
Update #4 as of 15-Dec-2011. Car still at the dealer. The changed the LH intake cam phaser and the LH intake chain tensioner on 13-Dec. Hyundai tech call the dealer just prior to starting the engine after changing the parts. They directed the dealer to dis-assemble the engine again and crank it without firing the engine and to observe if the chain tensioner took the slack out of the chain. This is not written in any service manual or online proceedure fro Hyundai, just "tribal knowledge" within Hyundai it seems. The theory is that there is an oil pressure check valve in the chain tensioner that must be oil charged to retain tension on the chain. If there is slack, then the cam timing is not correct and mis-fires result. Imagine that! I told the surley regional service guy that I thought the cams were out of postion due to bad position feedback....in theory this is what was occuring. We shall see...supposed to get the car back tomorrow 16-Dec-2011. The dealer guys want to drive it for a day or so to verify if it is OK or not.
I hope you have a loner and also you should demand a complete new engine. I got a new engine from mazda for a 1989 mazda 929 in 1989 and it was their idea with no hassel. If you have a loaner don't give it back until your car has a new engine in it and you have tested it. Get the owner of the dealership involved, not the manager.
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Fast454

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Dear god man, how long have they had the car?
All together since 25-Nov-2011. Yes I have had a loaner. Go back to my previous posts for the history on this deal. The Hyundai regional service guy is simply a moron.

The dealer is a friend...so after this is done and the dust settles a bit...I am going to request a replacement Genesis....not just an engine. We shall see...stay tuned.
 

Mandride

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Well the noise is back for me, I will be taking my car back in the AM, time for the 15k oil change. I was out of town and had my car washer come out and back my car out of the Garage, wash it and pull it back in. Started the car when I got home to take the wife out for a Valentines dinner and the knocking and ratteling came back. I did the smart thing this time and have recorded it. Taking the video in with me. I am really tired of the typical answer we dont see anything wrong. My fear is everytime you hear noise that means there is something loose and abuse happens. It took almost 30 miles for the valves to get quite. If I have to leave my car for anytime I sure hope they give me another Genesis to drive and not the puny Mazda 3 they gave me last time.
 

Martinator

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Same problem here with my 2010 Genesis 4.6 (17.5K miles), we were going skiing for New Years and the oil light started flickering rapidly as we got on the highway at home. Stopped at the dealer on the way and they checked the sensor and oil level and whatever else and pronounced everything was good to go.

That weekend, the light stayed off but on cold starts the engine was making all kinds of noise. Once climbing a hill it sounded like a truck was next to us, but it turned out to be our car. Everything seemed normal on the way home and for the next couple of weeks.

Then the oil light started flickering rapidly again and a couple of days later the check engine light came on solid as well and the engine started getting very noisy again. I checked the oil level almost every day and it looked clean and the level was always perfect. Took it back to the dealer on Friday 2/10. They were going to replace the oil and cam sensors and today they said the cam shaft is scored and needs to be replaced. They have had it for a week now and are estimating next Monday. We will see. :(
 

Mandride

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Interesting, I am afraid I will end up with the same issue. I have a great recording of the noise now. Took it into the dealer and they listened to it. They said it is becomming more common in the Technical reports they use. The final solution so far is they have said there is a new Oil filter out with a valve to prevent bleed down of the oil line. We did a oil change and will see. They also sayt it is neccessary to chang the oil every 3750 miles; the Manual says 7500. They keep it for about 1/2 week and said they couldn't duplicate the issue. I will see what happens, if the problem persist I think they are going to have to do something for me. I have had it in the shop twice now.
 
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