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Weird MPG results... Calling v8 owners

This is not entirely correct. Wind resistance increases as the square of the velocity, so the drag increases significantly from 55 mph to 65 mph (about 40%); there is no practical situation where the drag profile is more favorable at a higher speed than at a lower one.

I think what you're trying to say is that low-speed operation of a vehicle is inefficient because all of the road friction, mechanical drag, pumping losses, etc., are relatively large in proportion to the wind resistance. The car is using a certain amount of fuel just idling, and cannot go below that threshold, while it is traveling very little distance. However, there is some optimal speed at which the distance traveled is greatest in proportion to the amount of fuel above idle that is consumed. This is typically around 35 mph, after which the drag becomes a significant factor. And don't forget that rolling resistance for the tires also goes up with velocity.

This is why modern automatic transmissions with very high overdrive ratios perform so well with regard to fuel mileage; the engine is operating barely above idle at freeway speeds. It is also operating in a relatively efficient part of it's band...larger throttle opening to reduce pumping losses instead of light throttle at higher rpm. A full-sized car requires about 15 hp to maintain 60 mph (you're right, it takes a whole lot more to get it there quickly). Consider that the accessory drives on the engine probably often consume more than that, so the total fuel consumed would increase by only 50% if we doubled the amount of power we put onto the road.

In any case, as the vehicle speed increases, the idling costs become relatively smaller and smaller, but the drag increases fast; fuel consumption goes up proportionately, so it should get progressively worse for every mph you travel above about 35 mph-or-so. My Acura follows this behavior very closely: It gets phenomenal mileage at 55, slightly worse mileage at 70, and it starts to fall off noticeably at about 85, which I actually do have the ability to cruise at for long distances. Under those same conditions (steady cruise, not start-and-stop), the car would actually do much better at 35 mph, which is why the drivers tried to keep their speeds down in the old Mobilgas economy runs (what we'd call "hypermiling" today).

So, I'm at a loss to understand how the car could get much better mileage at 65 than 55...especially considering that it is in 6th gear in both cases. The only thing I can theorize is that there is something about the variable valve timing or fuel injection programming that happens to be in an unfavorable position around the lower speed. Or that the conditions really aren't equal, and something about the duty cycle is different under the two different speeds.

Interesting point, though...if I buy one of the cars, I'll have to watch for this.

Let me start by stating I am not a mechanical engineer.. however it seems you leave out a few variables in the above.
At any given rpm fuel can be "dumped" into the engine, this is part of the process used to increase rpm and move up the "powerband" of the engine.
I believe the "load" is affecting MPG returned.
If the Power delivered at 1700 RPM is such that little/no increase is required to overcome the additional resistance going up a small slope, head or cross winds. but the power delivered at 1500 RPM is such that a fuel increase is required to maintain speed on said slope or wind, the 1700 RPM engine becomes more efficient for that cycle.

I do agree that in a windless flat road better MPG should be returned at 55 than 65.
 
Wallymn makes the point that my overly-simplistic consideration of fuel-mileage-versus-vehicle-speed leaves out a few variables, and on this, he is entirely correct...I wasn't attempting to exhaustively analyze the argument, I was merely "thinking out loud". I read in the discussion a couple of common misperceptions about automotive physics, and was just trying to [gently] clarify the science for our fellows. However, he also promulgates a couple different misconceptions...

Wallymn, fuel is not "dumped" into the engine...modern fuel metering is so precise that it boggles the mind...liquid-fueled rockets of only a few years back weren't this accurate. Also, consider that the fuel in a modern engine is burned completely, and I mean, completely. Now, some residual energy is liberated in the catalytic converter, but a typical modern engine burns thoroughly in the extreme. Your example of fuel meeting requirements at 1700rpm but having excess fuel at 1500 rpm doesn't represent the way the engine works. If the vehicle is running steady-state on level ground and maintaining 1500 rpm, the fuel flow is producing exactly the amount of horsepower that the engine needs to offset vehicle losses. If the vehicle goes uphill, it requires additional fuel to maintain speed regardless of what that speed is. If fuel delivery is constant, the vehicle slows down, because the energy to lift the car up the hill has to come from someplace. If you are on level ground, and you open the throttle such that the vehicle holds any given rpm, there is a constant fuel flow that is exactly in equilibrium with the energy the vehicle is dissipating...there is no "excess" fuel. If you accelerate to a higher rpm, once you reach the desired speed, you again adjust the energy input to maintain an exact equilibrium state. It takes more energy to sustain the higher rpm (which is also higher vehicle speed) because, as I said in my earlier post, the losses are simply always higher at higher speed.

One of the other variables that you point out may play a larger part, and that is valve timing. It is possible that the variable valve timing curve doesn't follow the engine speed in a perfectly linear fashion, and that the engine breathing is inherently better at some particular speed. Also, at relatively low engine speeds (like 1500-1700 rpm), you cannot discount the effects of pumping losses (inefficiency due to the throttle on the engine). Auto engines are most efficient when run at large throttle openings and low speeds. Again, there may be some combination there that simply favors one situation over the other.

My overall point is that this is a complex topic, but the physics of where the energy comes from and goes to in an automobile are no mystery whatsoever. The phenomenon we're discussing could be easily understood and explained by the Hyundai engineers who programmed the engines operating curves.
 
Bottom line is that I think everyone (V6 and V8) is experiencing better MPG at 70 than at 55, at least according to the MPG calculator on the instrument cluster.
 
The variable valve timing can make a big difference on engine efficiency, leading to the unusual "gets better MPG at higher speeds" observation.

Aerodynamic resistance increases with the square of vehicle speed as was previously noted. That combines with tire rolling friction and mechanical friction in the engine/driveline. The mechanical friction is a function of the speed of moving parts so getting the engine RPMs low helps that --> thus modern multi-speed transmissions that have big overdrive ratios so the engine RPMs are really low. That also keeps the transmission input RPMs really low, reducing losses/drag on both the engine (piston rings, crankshaft main & rod bearings, valve train bearings, oil pump losses, other "parasitic" losses from the alternator bearings, water pump & bearings, serpentine belt idler wheel bearing, etc) and transmission (oil pump, bearings on input end of tranny, etc.) Increasing to 70 MPH should increase those losses (compared to 55MPH) since the tranny is in the high gear for both 55 or 70MPH (so engine RPMs and thus engine drags are still higher at 70MPH) but a few engine tuning tricks probably more than compensate.

Tuning tricks:
Remember, modern engines are tuned for both fuel economy and EMISSIONS. The emissions tuning is what drives engine tuning today more than anything. Almost all modern engines could be re-tuned to get better MPG and still perform as nicely/smoothly as they current do... except they'd make much more emissions. Specifically, the NOx (oxides of nitrogen) emissions. Modern gas engines run at the chemically ideal air to fuel ratio (stochiometric) to minimize emissions. Modern fuel injection systems became the only way car makers could control the air to fuel ratio precisely enough to satisfy emissions laws... that's what killed carburetors.

Remember, the purpose of burning gas is to heat a bunch of air; this heat makes that air expand. In the cylinders, this expansion creates a lot of pressure... that pushes on the pistons to make power. At stochiometric, basically all oxygen is consumed by the burn: there are just enough oxygen molecules for the fuel molecules. If the engine were re-tuned just a little bit, to inject slightly less fuel (leading to a "lean" air:fuel ratio) the burn would actually be hotter - making more pressure. (why? Because gas molecules are "heavy" and absorb a lot of heat; a little excess oxygen makes the burn happen quicker and hotter) So a lean engine would actually make as much as, if not more, horsepower for a given amount of fuel --> better MPG. However, a too-hot burn makes the natural combustion product NO2 molecules separate into NO + O2 molecules. NO is a nasty smog emission. It comes from a hot exhaust... heat energy in the exhaust pipes is what separates a couple NO2 molecules into NO + O2 molecules. The EGR valve (Exhaust Gas Recirculation) on many engines is specifically intended to reduce NO emissions: it routes some exhaust gasses back into the engine to be "burned again." Since this exhaust is already burned (and thus has virtually no oxygen in it) it contributes no oxygen to the burn - it's just extra molecular mass absorbing heat from the fresh air+gas being burned. That lowers the total combustion temperature, and thus the exhaust temperature, to reduce NO emissions. It sounds odd - adding fairly hot exhaust gasses to cool the burn - but that's what happens. By the time the hot EGR gasses actually get to the cylinders, they've cooled down quite a bit... well below the "burn" temperature.

With modern variable valve timing, and the precise control of the fuel quantity via modern fuel injection, many cars have been able to delete the EGR valve. The variable valve timing is used to simulate EGR though at really low RPMs typically to get good NO emissions... thus the valve timing is no longer "optimal" for best MPG.

Engines also have "pumping losses" - i.e. the energy needed to draw air into the engine (past the restrictive throttle plates) and to shove it out the tailpipes. That energy is supplied by the pistons of course - burning air+gas. So anything that reduces pumping losses leads to more efficient operation. Aftermarket exhaust systems, low restriction intake systems and air filters (e.g. the K&N filters) cost a fair bit of money but do provide some improvement. For the car manufactures, the "bang for the buck" isn't too good - they design "adequately performing exhaust and intakes" that don't cost nearly as much to mass-produce. 80% of the performance for 50% of the cost type of tradeoffs. Anyway, the length and diameter of the intake and exhaust manifolds can help the pumping loss issue: imagine the air molecules drawn in to the cylinder, and then shoved out of the cylinder, for each cycle of the piston. It's basically a "slug" of air moving. Air has mass, so getting it to move means momentum is changing --> ergo it takes energy to move, stop, and move again that slug of air. Now picture the intake manifold (pipe leading from the throttle to the cylinder) That's a slug of air... if the manifold diameter and length are sized right, the air in it moves to the cylinder... when the intake valve closes, the remaining air in the manifold has nowhere to go - but it has momentum. It's going to "pile up" against the valve, and actually bounce back. And bounce again on the other end of the pipe. Now if the intake manifold pipe is sized right, this rebounded air will be bouncing back towards the cylinder & intake valve just as the valve opens - so the piston doesn't have to "suck" as hard to get the air - its own momentum carries it into the cylinders. It's a type of resonance. This resonance happens at some particular engine RPM based on the length & diameter of the intake manifold pipes. The same type of thing occurs in the exhaust: a "slug" of air from one cylinder is shoved down the exhaust header... as that slug passes the "collector" (where the pipes from each cylinder merge into one big exhaust pipe) the momentum of that moving mass of air will induce a vacuum in the other pipes leading to the collector as it passes the collector. If the length of the pipes going to the header is just right, that vacuum will occur just as the next piston's exhaust valve is opening: the vacuum will help draw exhaust out of the cylinder so the piston won't have to work so hard shoving it out. This is what aftermarket headers do, especially for engines with cheap "log" exhaust manifolds from the factory that don't have individual pipes.

Hyundai may have "tuned" the intake and exhaust systems to be most efficient at the engine RPMs corresponding to 70-75MPH. Combined with the variable valve timing, the engine can be far more efficient at 1700 RPM than it might be at 1400 RPM (or whatever 70MPH and 55MPH match up to). Emissions and "pumping loss" tuning needs are the factors the Tau engine designers had to work with.

mike c.
 
One more thing that I don't know the answer to, but am tossing into the ring. Some transmissions lock the torque converter at some speed and in some gears (5th and 6th?). If you are below that speed then there's a loss of fuel economy due to t. converter losses. Above that speed you are basicly driving a stickshift car - drivetrain is direct connected front to back. Fuel economy is best just above that speed that the tranny locks up.
 
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The variable valve timing can make a big difference on engine efficiency, leading to the unusual "gets better MPG at higher speeds" observation.

Aerodynamic resistance increases with the square of vehicle speed as was previously noted. That combines with tire rolling friction and mechanical friction in the engine/driveline. The mechanical friction is a function of the speed of moving parts so getting the engine RPMs low helps that --> thus modern multi-speed transmissions that have big overdrive ratios so the engine RPMs are really low. That also keeps the transmission input RPMs really low, reducing losses/drag on both the engine (piston rings, crankshaft main & rod bearings, valve train bearings, oil pump losses, other "parasitic" losses from the alternator bearings, water pump & bearings, serpentine belt idler wheel bearing, etc) and transmission (oil pump, bearings on input end of tranny, etc.) Increasing to 70 MPH should increase those losses (compared to 55MPH) since the tranny is in the high gear for both 55 or 70MPH (so engine RPMs and thus engine drags are still higher at 70MPH) but a few engine tuning tricks probably more than compensate.

Tuning tricks:
Remember, modern engines are tuned for both fuel economy and EMISSIONS. The emissions tuning is what drives engine tuning today more than anything. Almost all modern engines could be re-tuned to get better MPG and still perform as nicely/smoothly as they current do... except they'd make much more emissions. Specifically, the NOx (oxides of nitrogen) emissions. Modern gas engines run at the chemically ideal air to fuel ratio (stochiometric) to minimize emissions. Modern fuel injection systems became the only way car makers could control the air to fuel ratio precisely enough to satisfy emissions laws... that's what killed carburetors.

Remember, the purpose of burning gas is to heat a bunch of air; this heat makes that air expand. In the cylinders, this expansion creates a lot of pressure... that pushes on the pistons to make power. At stochiometric, basically all oxygen is consumed by the burn: there are just enough oxygen molecules for the fuel molecules. If the engine were re-tuned just a little bit, to inject slightly less fuel (leading to a "lean" air:fuel ratio) the burn would actually be hotter - making more pressure. (why? Because gas molecules are "heavy" and absorb a lot of heat; a little excess oxygen makes the burn happen quicker and hotter) So a lean engine would actually make as much as, if not more, horsepower for a given amount of fuel --> better MPG. However, a too-hot burn makes the natural combustion product NO2 molecules separate into NO + O2 molecules. NO is a nasty smog emission. It comes from a hot exhaust... heat energy in the exhaust pipes is what separates a couple NO2 molecules into NO + O2 molecules. The EGR valve (Exhaust Gas Recirculation) on many engines is specifically intended to reduce NO emissions: it routes some exhaust gasses back into the engine to be "burned again." Since this exhaust is already burned (and thus has virtually no oxygen in it) it contributes no oxygen to the burn - it's just extra molecular mass absorbing heat from the fresh air+gas being burned. That lowers the total combustion temperature, and thus the exhaust temperature, to reduce NO emissions. It sounds odd - adding fairly hot exhaust gasses to cool the burn - but that's what happens. By the time the hot EGR gasses actually get to the cylinders, they've cooled down quite a bit... well below the "burn" temperature.

With modern variable valve timing, and the precise control of the fuel quantity via modern fuel injection, many cars have been able to delete the EGR valve. The variable valve timing is used to simulate EGR though at really low RPMs typically to get good NO emissions... thus the valve timing is no longer "optimal" for best MPG.

Engines also have "pumping losses" - i.e. the energy needed to draw air into the engine (past the restrictive throttle plates) and to shove it out the tailpipes. That energy is supplied by the pistons of course - burning air+gas. So anything that reduces pumping losses leads to more efficient operation. Aftermarket exhaust systems, low restriction intake systems and air filters (e.g. the K&N filters) cost a fair bit of money but do provide some improvement. For the car manufactures, the "bang for the buck" isn't too good - they design "adequately performing exhaust and intakes" that don't cost nearly as much to mass-produce. 80% of the performance for 50% of the cost type of tradeoffs. Anyway, the length and diameter of the intake and exhaust manifolds can help the pumping loss issue: imagine the air molecules drawn in to the cylinder, and then shoved out of the cylinder, for each cycle of the piston. It's basically a "slug" of air moving. Air has mass, so getting it to move means momentum is changing --> ergo it takes energy to move, stop, and move again that slug of air. Now picture the intake manifold (pipe leading from the throttle to the cylinder) That's a slug of air... if the manifold diameter and length are sized right, the air in it moves to the cylinder... when the intake valve closes, the remaining air in the manifold has nowhere to go - but it has momentum. It's going to "pile up" against the valve, and actually bounce back. And bounce again on the other end of the pipe. Now if the intake manifold pipe is sized right, this rebounded air will be bouncing back towards the cylinder & intake valve just as the valve opens - so the piston doesn't have to "suck" as hard to get the air - its own momentum carries it into the cylinders. It's a type of resonance. This resonance happens at some particular engine RPM based on the length & diameter of the intake manifold pipes. The same type of thing occurs in the exhaust: a "slug" of air from one cylinder is shoved down the exhaust header... as that slug passes the "collector" (where the pipes from each cylinder merge into one big exhaust pipe) the momentum of that moving mass of air will induce a vacuum in the other pipes leading to the collector as it passes the collector. If the length of the pipes going to the header is just right, that vacuum will occur just as the next piston's exhaust valve is opening: the vacuum will help draw exhaust out of the cylinder so the piston won't have to work so hard shoving it out. This is what aftermarket headers do, especially for engines with cheap "log" exhaust manifolds from the factory that don't have individual pipes.

Hyundai may have "tuned" the intake and exhaust systems to be most efficient at the engine RPMs corresponding to 70-75MPH. Combined with the variable valve timing, the engine can be far more efficient at 1700 RPM than it might be at 1400 RPM (or whatever 70MPH and 55MPH match up to). Emissions and "pumping loss" tuning needs are the factors the Tau engine designers had to work with.

mike c.

Cheese whiz, Mike, I got a headache trying to read all that (and understanding little). Rebounding air, slug of air, reburning exhaust, stochiometric ....... it all sounds like hot exhaust to me. :eek:

But thanks anyway, I haven't been this confused since first grade. :o

After my headache goes away, I may try reading it a couple of more times. :rolleyes:
 
So texas got cool the last few days and ive been driving with the windows down and the air off. Maybe its just a placebo affect or randomness, but I feel like ive gained 1mpg in city driving. Been averaging about 18-18.5 lately with no air, windows and roof down.

My air is usually at about 68-70 at 60% or so.
 
Above 45 mph, the most significant impact on mpg for a given vehicle is wind resistance. That there is so little variance between 55 and 75 is a testament to how well designed the Genesis is aerodynamically.
 
This thread is full of so much good information. wow.

Thanks to all the contributors... even though I may never understand the concepts completely, any insight gained into the complex processes at work causing certain mileage at a certain speed is valuable.
 
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