Cold Air Intake development-SPY PICS

[ZZR]

As part of our Aero package
http://genesisowners.com/hyundai-genesis-forum/showthread.php?t=15153
Cold Air Intake is an effort to offer options to 2015 Genesis owners.

And just as with the whole package CAI is work in progress.
So far we have found the workable configuration for the filters and pipes.
The stock filter boxes are intact, our CAI is an addition to them.
Pic 1 shows where the inlets are going to be. It was important not to desturb the hood's frame, so the openings are there already, under the sheetmetal.
Pic 2The openings will be covered by a hood scoop and air drawn from the front of it.

Pics 3 and 4 show the routing of the pipes. CAI pipes cut into the stock system
right in front of the TB.

The last step will be to develope a pan and isolate filters from the hot engine bay air.

 

[joeyz400]

Isn't this kind of useless if we can't tune the ECU or have turbos? Or even without replacing the stock exhaust system?

 

[ZZR]

Isn't this kind of useless if we can't tune the ECU or have turbos? Or even without replacing the stock exhaust system?

The usefulness of CAI systems is well known. Drawing air from as cold of a spot as possible (1) and drawing air from a spot where air is somewhat pressurize when vehicle is in motion.(2)
Simply using a more effective air filter does help also, as does adding another one.
Why is also common knowelege. (1) cold air is more dence therefore there is more O2 per given volume. More O2 injested into combustion chamber - more fuel can be burnt in that chamber per single sycle. More efficient operation and more power.
(2) has same effect, extranal pressure forces more air into combustion chamber.
better filter has less resistance, so are two filters against one. Less parasitic loss = more power.

Now you see our choices about this CAI are about all of the above.
We draw extra air via additional filter, it's a better quality than paper filters,
the extra air comes from higher point(on a hot day air temps may be above 200 deg. F right at ground level, but 100 F three feet above it), where we draw. + at speeds above 60MPH ram air effect begins to be of notice.

Having said all that we know that a typical well designed CAI system will add between 7 - 12 extra HP on top. It's not much, but the cost is low and simplisity is high.

CAI works with or without free flowing mufflers. CAI works with or without turbos.
As far as tuning goes - there is no need to tune PCM because CAI is installed.
CAI does not have such drastic effect as say turbo or supercharger.
Stock PCM easily adjucts to 2-3% additional air.
I'm sure you have heard about MAF - Mass Air Flow censor. That is the sensor that measures how much air went through it. Based on it's signal PCM adjusts fuel injector cycle, thus controlling amount of fuel delivered into the chamber.

It really works like a carburator - amount of fuel depends on air flow, just more precise.
So a given car or it's brain PCM does not know or care there is CAI system.
it just sees more air and acts accordingly.
Tuning is ajusting fuel and spark advance based on a particular need.
OEMs must tune PCMs with a lot of compromizes - because car may be used in different climates, altitudes and for different purposes - like economy driving at 65MPH in interstate or aggressive driving in a city. Also they tune on the safe side, say your car can use leaner fuel mixture for more economy but OEM programms it a bit richer than it could have. it's extra cushing - lean out the engine and it'll detonate and even self distruct. A bit on a richer side presents no danger like that. So if a person knows what conditions the car is used, he can have a tuner squeese a bit more out of it.
Speaking of which - Genesis already has four different tunes in it - SNOW,NORMAL, ECO and SPORT. Those tunes not only have different fuel and spark tables but also tranny, steering and suspention operation.
This has been a long answer.
The short one is: you have a 3.8, and our CAI system is for 5.0
No worries

 

[jonjon72]

Isn't this kind of useless if we can't tune the ECU or have turbos? Or even without replacing the stock exhaust system?

Actually when your talking V8's, check out the various air intake kits for Mustangs, Camaro's and Challengers. A K&N intake alone can add 15+hp. No tune or after market exhaust.

I'd like to see the dyno with this intake to see what numbers they can get.

 

[lobsenza]

Any possibility of getting the sport mode with the normal mode shift pattern?

 

[joeyz400]

But without a tune it isn't as effective. If you could take in more air you need to be able to expelled more air.... As well as a tune to make use of the extra flow... Sure you will get a couple more HP but if you had all 3 you would actually feel a difference.

 

[ZZR]

But without a tune it isn't as effective. If you could take in more air you need to be able to expelled more air.... As well as a tune to make use of the extra flow... Sure you will get a couple more HP but if you had all 3 you would actually feel a difference.

I'm for mufflers and tune. Just right now we are working on the CAI..

 

[joeyz400]

Do you have any plans for a tune? I would be real interested in that.

 

[ZZR]

No plans for tune, we are working on dealer option package, so anything that could void new car warranty is not in the picture. I'm sure aftermarket including tuners will come up with lot's of stuff for Genesis.

 

[HyundaiTech]

I don't see this making a notable difference on performance just making you engine louder. A 5-10hp difference will not show up on a 300 horsepower engine on a dyno.

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[carlosfernandez]

No plans for tune, we are working on dealer option package, so anything that could void new car warranty is not in the picture. I'm sure aftermarket including tuners will come up with lot's of stuff for Genesis.

Hope that's will be true!!

 

[ksoze]

No plans for tune, we are working on dealer option package, so anything that could void new car warranty is not in the picture.

The list of modifications that will not void the factory warranty seems pretty slim. Even some cosmetic changes can always be used as a way to deny a claim. Any dealership deciding to allow or sell that mod may have to subsidize it themselves in the event of a factory warranty claim. A front facia change seems pretty benign, but I suspect any future problem with the radar unit or lights and it would be easy to deny.

 

[ZZR]

Math issues.

A 5-10hp difference will not show up on a 300 horsepower engine on a dyno.

A 5-10HP difference on a 300HP engine will show up as 305-310HP.

Buy the way V6 is rated at 310HP. And you call yourself HyundaiTech..

 

[joeyz400]

It actually has 311... but who's counting ME!!!!!!! I want more HP but needed AWD and thats why I'm banging my head to the wall..... Hopefully there will be some tune shops willing to work something out. The Ford SHO has tunes that make almost 150+ more HP with just upgrading the downpipes and a tune.... grant it they are twin turbo V6's but they can get up to 500HP.

 

[Tpr5.0]

George, the design of the intake setup appears like it will be inefficient. The intakes and tubes are facing the wrong direction. Think of the vehicle moving and how the airflow will be directed with your R&D setup. The airflow in your setup is directed from the rear of the hood, towards the front of the vehicle, then down and then towards the engine. Not very efficient. Like I previously suggested, move the intakes up front where the factory boxes are located and the airflow will be much more efficient. I appreciate you taking the initiative with this project and I look forward to the end result.

 

[ZZR]

George, the design of the intake setup appears like it will be inefficient. The intakes and tubes are facing the wrong direction. Think of the vehicle moving and how the airflow will be directed with your R&D setup. The airflow in your setup is directed from the rear of the hood, towards the front of the vehicle, then down and then towards the engine. Not very efficient. Like I previously suggested, move the intakes up front where the factory boxes are located and the airflow will be much more efficient. I appreciate you taking the initiative with this project and I look forward to the end result.

Thanks for the reoly but it is not exactly like you say.
We are not dealing with fluid here, where it's weight affects the flow.
For example if fluid(fuel) delivered from the back the acceleration of a vehicle will slow it down because fuel flows against the force of acceleration. That is why dragsters have fuel tanks up front.

Air does not weigh anything.
So the directon in which it is delivered is not of importance.
What is important is the pressure. Air drawn from high pressure area moves where pressure is low.
So as our car moves forward scopp ( that's why they call it "scoop", not cover or bonnet or anything else) scoops air under itself, and creates extra pressure there. From that area filters will injest.

This is called Ram Air effect. Trully though the most pressure moving vehicle creates at the bottom of a windshiled. See, radiator is designed to allow as much air through itself as possible, to cool antifreeze. So, air moves farliy freely through
the front facia, around the engine and then it meets a huge wall . it's a firewall and windshield above it. There is not way through it, so pressure builds up. Systems drwing air from that area called Cowl Inductions as we all know. On every Cowl induction system air is going to the front, but that's OK because again, all we care is moving air from high pressure areas to lows. There is more to it - comparing to the vacuum engine creates in the intake these high pressure areas are of small help. But some help still.

Your idea to position the air intakes where they are now is good one, and Hyuandai has done it already.

I'm sure you are aware the stock air boxes draw air from the front of the car,
from outside of the engine bay. So why would we discard a perfectly good system with two huge filters and try to do same with possibly better cone filters instead? We don't have any data prooving these particular cones are so much better than stocks. + the important thing is - not to disturb the hood's frame and it would be impossible to do the way you suggested.

Thirdly if we draw fron the areas above where stock filters are we are likely to miss out on the pressure benefits. That particlular area is good for opposite - heat extractors or engine bay vents. This is where we would allow hot engine bay air to escape. I'd like to enforcise the importance of retaining all factory functions, and - one more reason for our intake design - there is a port in the junction right before the TB. This port serves as PCW vent - Positive crank case ventilation. And where it goes into the air intake tube there is a baffle.
It serves as a muffler to quiet down intake noise and to catch occasional oil intrusion possible may be coming in from under the LHS vavle cover. it does not happen often but if you are fast . in a tight RHS curve long enough there may be some oil accumulation under LHS valve cover and some may be sucked in by the PCV port.If we were to dicard all that in favor of aftermarket
CAI and simply connect the PCV hose from the valve cover to intake tubing, I'm not sure we could do as good of a job as OEM.
So, be it as it may but we are going safe route, simply add little air to already great intake system.

There is a little more to it - if one day we get brave or some one else goes for
a supercharger it may require removal of the stock air boxes. There is no room
for a belt or SC under there as it is. If so, our intake system may provide a way to feed the SC or even twin turbos, with most of the system already in place.

 

[15GenesisAWD]

Wow...air filters right on top of engine, even with heat shield, not sure if that is such marketable idea. Hot air rises. So when the car is standing still, all that hot air in the engine bay will try to use the presurized hood scoop area to escape and air filters are right in the path. So in normal or traffic driving, engine will be heat soaked, yielding less power. But on highway, it may yield better power with ram air effect.

 

[HyundaiTech]

Re: Math issues.

A 5-10HP difference on a 300HP engine will show up as 305-310HP.

Buy the way V6 is rated at 310HP. And you call yourself HyundaiTech..

Yep I was a Hyundai tech. Your going to have a variance of 1-4% on a dyno sheet from run 1 to run 3 and its going to be very difficult to prove any increase was from your rat cage.

I will let the smart people at Hyundai design my air intake. Do you really think you can improve on what they did?

 

[italiabrain]

Re: Math issues.

Yep I was a Hyundai tech. Your going to have a variance of 1-4% on a dyno sheet from run 1 to run 3 and its going to be very difficult to prove any increase was from your rat cage.

I will let the smart people at Hyundai design my air intake. Do you really think you can improve on what they did?

On #1 Yes, if you put formal error bars on it after doing only 3 runs on each then they would most likely overlap. That doesn't mean that you can't see the average increasing regardless of whether it's statistically significant. If you're consistently reading 305 to 315 and make a mod and then consistently read between 315-325 all you really need to do is take lots of readings on each one to measure out the noise. Or you can take it at face value and say you gained about 10hp.

On #2 I'm sure the intake is well designed, but for what? I'd bet it's for balancing noise, filtration quality, ease of maintenance, cost to produce, mpg, emissions, and power. Even if Hyundai built a perfectly optimal design for their goals it would be possible to "beat it" on one particular variable by sacrificing other variables. An increase in allowable noise, allowable cost, and maybe even a decrease in ideal filtration, could allow the equation to be balanced more toward the power side. When some of us consider increased noise to be another benefit, it becomes rather easy to imagine a system that's "better" based on how we weigh the variables as compared to Hyundai's mass marketing.

 

[HyundaiTech]

Re: Math issues.

On #1 Yes, if you put formal error bars on it after doing only 3 runs on each then they would most likely overlap. That doesn't mean that you can't see the average increasing regardless of whether it's statistically significant. If you're consistently reading 305 to 315 and make a mod and then consistently read between 315-325 all you really need to do is take lots of readings on each one to measure out the noise. Or you can take it at face value and say you gained about 10hp.

On #2 I'm sure the intake is well designed, but for what? I'd bet it's for balancing noise, filtration quality, ease of maintenance, cost to produce, mpg, emissions, and power. Even if Hyundai built a perfectly optimal design for their goals it would be possible to "beat it" on one particular variable by sacrificing other variables. An increase in allowable noise, allowable cost, and maybe even a decrease in ideal filtration, could allow the equation to be balanced more toward the power side. When some of us consider increased noise to be another benefit, it becomes rather easy to imagine a system that's "better" based on how we weigh the variables as compared to Hyundai's mass marketing.

That's why I drive this car b/c it was engineered to do all of the above. Why would anyone pay money to sacrifice some of these variables.

Reply to #1 What your saying makes sense in theory but not in the real world. The difference is still just to small the machine is only so accurate, and there are so many other variables that could change after each run.