Hyundai's challenges with the 3rd Generation Genesis (speculation)

[Sal Collaziano]

Lexus displaced Cadillac and Lincoln. There is no Cadillac or Lincoln for Hyundai to make money by displacing.

Lexus has had to make their money in the US as they have never had sales success in Europe, or any where else, really.

Infiniti chose to take on Mercedes and BMW with the Q45 and failed. It set them back years.

Whose lunch do you think Hyundai will eat it it spends the money to create a separate luxury brand?

There's only Mercedes, Audi, BMW and Lexus. Jaguar sells little, Cadillac is a tough competitor where it has product.

I feel there's enough room in the market for another luxury brand. It would give people another option and I think people love options. If the Genesis "brand" would mimic another too closely then it wouldn't make sense but if they have their own look and/feel, I think it would work. I feel the Genesis is unique enough to have success.

In any event, I think a sub-brand would be fine as well...

States are getting annoyed with electric vehicles. They are losing gasoline tax revenue. Look for them to counter with mileage-based road taxes. See what Oregon is doing here:

http://www.roadandtrack.com/car-cul...egon-to-try-uss-first-mileage-based-road-tax/

Wonderful, right?

 

[jimb100]

I feel there's enough room in the market for another luxury brand. It would give people another option and I think people love options. If the Genesis "brand" would mimic another too closely then it wouldn't make sense but if they have their own look and/feel, I think it would work. I feel the Genesis is unique enough to have success.

In any event, I think a sub-brand would be fine as well...



Wonderful, right?

Yes, people love choices but you need to take sales from established players to offset the cost of establishing a separate brand.

Again, who would Hyundai take enough sales from to make it worthwhile?

Right now, Hyundai competes on price/value. Last I saw they had sold about 25,000 Genesis sedan's in the first half of the year.

If the Genesis were priced the same as a Mercedes, BMW, Audi or Lexus, how many do you think they would have sold?

 

[Aquineas]

Yes, people love choices but you need to take sales from established players to offset the cost of establishing a separate brand.

Again, who would Hyundai take enough sales from to make it worthwhile?

Right now, Hyundai competes on price/value. Last I saw they had sold about 25,000 Genesis sedan's in the first half of the year.

If the Genesis were priced the same as a Mercedes, BMW, Audi or Lexus, how many do you think they would have sold?

Who said anything about the Genesis selling at the same price point as Mercedes, BMW, or Audi? Is that the claim you're attacking? Because I haven't seen anyone making that claim.

I do think the price gap will narrow some, but there is a lot of slack in that line before the vehicles are at price/feature parity.

 

[DrNotes]

I have more specific concerns, none of them relating to the illusion that this is a road racer, as long as it is safe and has enough power to get up to speed on the freeway I am happy. I really do enjoy the classy touches they've done with both the tech and the finishes.

The technology is really very good, but needs some tweaks. Add a little more info to the HUD; turn signals, song names, shuffle/repeat settings, distance to empty when you get low, etc. Adding more voice commands would be awesome, selecting music (play song or artist) and climate control. It would also be nice to have a way to play all songs by one artist on random, not just limited to one of their albums. A more powerful subwoofer would also be fun. The remote control app should be able to engage all heating and cooling functions, including seats, steering wheel, both defrosters and even opening/closing/cracking open the windows and sunroof. I would appreciate the cruise, drive mode and auto hold settings staying engaged after stopping and starting the engine, having to hit those 3 buttons EVERY time I start the car is silly. Fog lights should be standard, they come with almost all of their cheaper models. I would gladly trade paddle shifters and/or collapsing side mirrors for LED fogs. The LED eyelash lights should be the DRL, not some cheapo yellow bulb. Making the V8 AWD available in the US would be appreciated by some I'm sure. Replace any remaining flying H (engine cover and trunk, I think that is it) with Genesis logo. And virtually any car body can be improved, so no specific suggestions, just make it look "cooler" lol.

 

[jimb100]

Who said anything about the Genesis selling at the same price point as Mercedes, BMW, or Audi? Is that the claim you're attacking? Because I haven't seen anyone making that claim.

I do think the price gap will narrow some, but there is a lot of slack in that line before the vehicles are at price/feature parity.

So you want to create a new premium brand, with new dealerships and priced less the established brands.

You haven't seen anyone make that suggestion?

 

[Aquineas]

So you want to create a new premium brand, with new dealerships and priced less the established brands.

You haven't seen anyone make that suggestion?

Don't play strawman games with me. You made the claim they would be at price parity, not I. It was your claim, and you're free to attack it, but don't attribute it to me. Let me repeat what I said, for clarity:

I think we will see the cost delta between the Genesis and its competitors narrow somewhat. Hyundai would like to see it narrow a lot, which they will need their own luxury brand to do.

In any case, it's not like those three parameters have ever been met before. (Hint genius: they have, with a little brand called Lexus).

As for the exalted electric cars, I think it will happen eventually, but there's no way it happens in the next 6 years.

 

[jimb100]

Don't play strawman games with me. You made the claim they would be at price parity, not I. It was your claim, and you're free to attack it, but don't attribute it to me. Let me repeat what I said, for clarity:



In any case, it's not like those three parameters have ever been met before. (Hint genius: they have, with a little brand called Lexus).

As for the exalted electric cars, I think it will happen eventually, but there's no way it happens in the next 6 years.

Well, first off, electric cars - have already happened and quoting click bait internet headlines doesn't strengthen your argument.

Next, perhaps you didn't bother the read the whole thread. Lexus stole easy sales from Cadillac and Lincoln because they were so bad. There's no Cadillac or Lincoln for a new luxury brand to steal from, but perhaps you know how this can be made to work, genius.

Frankly, you inserted yourself into a conversation that didn't include you, then you accuse me of 'attacking' you. Once again, read the thread.

It doesn't seem you have any idea as to what it would cost to set up 500 premium brand dealerships. Clearly, Hyundai has and has decided it can't sell enough cars to make any money at it.

When you see them breaking ground on their first luxury car dealership you can feel free to write back and tell me how wrong I was.

Until then, save your breath with me and explain to Hyundai what a good idea it is. If you are convincing enough they may make you VP of Luxury car dealerships.

 

[Aquineas]

Well, first off, electric cars - have already happened and quoting click bait internet headlines doesn't strengthen your argument.

And what would be the percentage of electric cars in proportion to iCE ones on the road? Until the range anxiety and charge-time problems are solved, they will not replace the ICE. I'm a firm believer that electric motors are better than ICE engines. More torque available earlier in the torque curve, smoother operation, more efficient. But batteries have at least another 10 years to where a 300+ miles can be achieved on a 2 minute charge.

Next, perhaps you didn't bother the read the whole thread. Lexus stole easy sales from Cadillac and Lincoln because they were so bad. There's no Cadillac or Lincoln for a new luxury brand to steal from, but perhaps you know how this can be made to work, genius.

And yet, the Hyundai Genesis is the third best selling model in its segment, ahead of the Lexus GS, which it happens to be on near price parity with. As you seem to be the genius, maybe you can explain that? If not, then perhaps it's not so impossible after all. And as I started the thread, I have read every post. In fact, I invited (and continue to invite) discussion, and even (especially) opinions that differ from my own. But I detest cheap strawman arguments (and other cheap logical fallacies you seem to be fond of using) and I call them out for what they are, B.S. And the only one in this thread who claimed that the Genesis would achieve price parity is you. I called you on it.

Frankly, you inserted yourself into a conversation that didn't include you, then you accuse me of 'attacking' you. Once again, read the thread.

Even if there were such a thing as a private conversations on an internet forum, I'm the originator of the thread. The sound of taps being played right now is being played at your point dying.

It doesn't seem you have any idea as to what it would cost to set up 500 premium brand dealerships.

Wrong. When the original Genesis came out, Hyundai went on record on how much it would cost to set up a new brand. I leave it as an exercise to you to find the article. I have a birthday party to prepare for.

When Electric cars have a 300+ mile range on a charge that doesn't deteriorate under heat conditions (I hear it gets hot in Florida, doesn't it? If so and you live in Florida, you might want to hold off on buying an electric vehicle for the next generation) and can be recharged in under 5 minutes (I said 2 before, but I believe most people would be okay with under 5), I believe they will catch on like wildfire. But that hasn't happened yet, and should it happen by the time the next generation Genesis is released, then feel free at that time to declare their victory. But the next generation Genesis will not be an electric vehicle. If anything, Hydrogen is more likely, considering the research Hyundai has been doing with hydrogen vehicles (and what was shown to us in Seoul). That and the fact they already have a hydrogen vehicle on the market.

 

[jimb100]

And what would be the percentage of electric cars in proportion to iCE ones on the road? Until the range anxiety and charge-time problems are solved, they will not replace the ICE. I'm a firm believer that electric motors are better than ICE engines. More torque available earlier in the torque curve, smoother operation, more efficient. But batteries have at least another 10 years to where a 300+ miles can be achieved on a 2 minute charge.


And yet, the Hyundai Genesis is the third best selling model in its segment, ahead of the Lexus GS, which it happens to be on near price parity with. As you seem to be the genius, maybe you can explain that? If not, then perhaps it's not so impossible after all. And as I started the thread, I have read every post. In fact, I invited (and continue to invite) discussion, and even (especially) opinions that differ from my own. But I detest cheap strawman arguments (and other cheap logical fallacies you seem to be fond of using) and I call them out for what they are, B.S. And the only one in this thread who claimed that the Genesis would achieve price parity is you. I called you on it.


Even if there were such a thing as a private conversations on an internet forum, I'm the originator of the thread. The sound of taps being played right now is being played at your point dying.


Wrong. When the original Genesis came out, Hyundai went on record on how much it would cost to set up a new brand. I leave it as an exercise to you to find the article. I have a birthday party to prepare for.

When Electric cars have a 300+ mile range on a charge that doesn't deteriorate under heat conditions (I hear it gets hot in Florida, doesn't it? If so and you live in Florida, you might want to hold off on buying an electric vehicle for the next generation) and can be recharged in under 5 minutes (I said 2 before, but I believe most people would be okay with under 5), I believe they will catch on like wildfire. But that hasn't happened yet, and should it happen by the time the next generation Genesis is released, then feel free at that time to declare their victory. But the next generation Genesis will not be an electric vehicle. If anything, Hydrogen is more likely, considering the research Hyundai has been doing with hydrogen vehicles (and what was shown to us in Seoul). That and the fact they already have a hydrogen vehicle on the market.

You may have read every post but you didn't comprehend every post. Perhaps you could have someone help you.

Either way, I'm done. When you bring the Lexus GS into the discussion to try to make a point and don't supply a link to some "mystery article" that supposedly proves your point I realize I am now 'pig wrestling'.

 

[Sal Collaziano]

Yes, people love choices but you need to take sales from established players to offset the cost of establishing a separate brand. Again, who would Hyundai take enough sales from to make it worthwhile? Right now, Hyundai competes on price/value. Last I saw they had sold about 25,000 Genesis sedan's in the first half of the year. If the Genesis were priced the same as a Mercedes, BMW, Audi or Lexus, how many do you think they would have sold?

First, just noting that Hyundai is really pleased with their second generation Genesis Sedan sales thus far. I received this in an email on July 2nd:

We just hit 100,000 sales of the second generation Hyundai Genesis within 18 months. That’s 10 months sooner than it took the first generation Genesis to hit the same mark! Thanks to all of your valuable input, we’re continuing to make better vehicles.

Otherwise... I think Hyundai would be better off with a Genesis sub brand at first. In any event, since we're discussing what might happen with an actual brand - I think it's 'possible' (not necessarily probable) that Hyundai could also do well with a separate luxury brand.

Offsetting other luxury brands would be great - but it's not entirely necessary. And while I feel that's true - you WOULD have some people defecting from premium brands for a variety of reasons. One simply being change. Another being uniqueness. And since I don't feel it would be absolutely necessary to be on par with premium luxury brands - price-wise - I feel being somewhere in between where they are now and that premium price point (in other words - in the middle) would work fine. AT LEAST for awhile. That's what Lexus did. The first LS 400 was $35k. An S-Class competitor for an E-Class price.

So if Hyundai could add a few thousand to the cost of their product - it would/could attract people either looking for the above mentioned change and/or uniqueness -- or perhaps to save money (maybe people retiring not wanting to spend top dollar anymore). Or maybe people that might generally buy an Accord or LaCrosse but want something luxurious without going all the way to the top (price-wise / not ready yet).

It wouldn't be as easy as it was for Lexus considering Cadillac and Lincoln wasn't on anyone's list anymore. But it wouldn't be all that difficult either.

So to answer the question, "Who would Hyundai take sales from?" - my answer is "everyone". A little from Mercedes, BMW, Audi, Cadillac, Lincoln, Lexus, Infiniti, Acura and perhaps more from Honda, Nissan, Toyota, Buick, Mazda, Chrysler, etcetera...

I never really see any "up and coming" luxury brands (Infiniti, Acura, Lexus) being priced the same as Mercedes. But I do see Hyundai being able to create a Genesis brand and price it a little beneath Lexus until they're established. After that - perhaps being on par with Lexus and Infiniti would be a good start. But that would take time...

So you want to create a new premium brand, with new dealerships and priced less the established brands.

As mentioned above, I think this is possible. Yes, Lexus had Cadillac and Lincoln to draw from - which made things easy. Hyundai has other brands it can/could draw from - as mentioned above...

I have more specific concerns, none of them relating to the illusion that this is a road racer, as long as it is safe and has enough power to get up to speed on the freeway I am happy. I really do enjoy the classy touches they've done with both the tech and the finishes.

The technology is really very good, but needs some tweaks. Add a little more info to the HUD; turn signals, song names, shuffle/repeat settings, distance to empty when you get low, etc. Adding more voice commands would be awesome, selecting music (play song or artist) and climate control. It would also be nice to have a way to play all songs by one artist on random, not just limited to one of their albums. A more powerful subwoofer would also be fun. The remote control app should be able to engage all heating and cooling functions, including seats, steering wheel, both defrosters and even opening/closing/cracking open the windows and sunroof. I would appreciate the cruise, drive mode and auto hold settings staying engaged after stopping and starting the engine, having to hit those 3 buttons EVERY time I start the car is silly. Fog lights should be standard, they come with almost all of their cheaper models. I would gladly trade paddle shifters and/or collapsing side mirrors for LED fogs. The LED eyelash lights should be the DRL, not some cheapo yellow bulb. Making the V8 AWD available in the US would be appreciated by some I'm sure. Replace any remaining flying H (engine cover and trunk, I think that is it) with Genesis logo. And virtually any car body can be improved, so no specific suggestions, just make it look "cooler" lol.

I'm almost certain the mid-cycle refresh of the Genesis Sedan will see the LED fog lights on all models and an AWD V8 - amongst other improvements. You mentioned lots of good suggestions...

______________________________

Help support this site so it can continue supporting you!

 

[lobsenza]

I think the possibility of an electric car that can be charged by a wall outlet or an ICE engine would be an interesting compromise. This is somewhat like the Volt, but the Volt uses the ICE engine to help charge the batteries or run the car. My suggestion would be to have the ICE capable of fully charging the batteries in addition to a wall outlet. That way the battery pack could handle 50 miles or so without the ICE, but could handle a much larger range if the ICE charges the batteries.

The reason for this logic is that I think a pure electric power train with 2 methods of charging (ICE or household electric) would me much simpler than the Volt solution.

But, I may be missing something....

 

[OneFunGenesis]

^ I believe you would be missing any cost/emissions savings because you would still have to buy gas and run a gas engine....

 

[DrNotes]

If you guys are done, maybe get a room lol.

I forgot one other technology tweak. It is very nice that they provide a basic mechanism to copy MP3 files to the jukebox. I hope that they enhance it so that specific files can be copied to specific folders in the future, as well as adding the capabilities to create and organize folders in the jukebox itself.

 

[lobsenza]

The gas engine would only be used on trips beyond the electric charging range. Electric motors give instant torque. The gas engine would basically be a gas powered generator only used when needed.

 

[YEH]

A separate luxury brand or at least a sub-brand maybe will come down the road, but not yet feasible until after Hyundai expands its luxury lineup w/ a few more models.

As for the 3G Genesis sedan, it'll certainly be interesting to see what Hyundai ends up doing.

Ideally, an automaker will want to use the basic platform for 2 generations of models as developing new platforms is one of the most cost-intensive undertakings for an automaker (or else, really extend the life like what Toyota has done for the LS460).

But as Cadillac has its new lightweight platform underpinning the CT6 (the same basic design will go into the new platform for the ATS and CTS replacements) and BMW and Audi are in midst of developing new lightweight (modular) platforms, the pressure will be on Hyundai to follow suit.

But an argument can be made for Hyundai to save that for the 4G Genesis and instead sink more $$ into the interior and other things w/ some weight saving to be had w/ replacing the steel hood/trunk w/ aluminum and adding aluminum in a few other areas.

Another possible weight saving (or at least fuel economy increasing) measure would be to replace or offer as a substitute for the H-TRAC AWD system, an e-AWD system (since many buyers just want AWD for the times there is snow on the road).

While the battery would add weight, it would be offset from not having a mechanical AWD system and e-AWD would also allow for further improvement in fuel economy by allowing the battery to power the front wheels in rush hour/stop-go traffic.

Daimler didn't go with a state-of-the-art platform for the latest S Class (which is why it is still fairly heavy), but instead sunk $$ into a class-leading interior and new tech amenities (some of which admittedly are a bit superfluous).

Not quite clear if Daimler developed a new platform to underpin the new E Class, but more than likely didn't as there hasn't been anything said about it unlike for the new 5er/7er and A6/A8 - so MD may be waiting until the next gen lineup.

So it might be wiser for Hyundai to sink $$ for the 3G Genesis into the interior and greater tech amenities (but not going to the extremes of the S Class or the new E Class) and eschew the cost of a new state of the art platform until the 4G.

As for Lexus, one would think that the extended life cycle for the LS460 means that the next LS will get a new, state of the art platform.

 

[Sal Collaziano]

In regards to vehicle weight - it really wouldn't be so bad to say, "My Genesis has EVERYTHING your <Mercedes, BMW, Audi> has minus the lightweight platform" for tens of thousands less...

 

[YEH]

^ Don't think it is the worst thing for the Genesis, Equus, etc. to be a generation behind the Germans (or at least BMW and Audi) in platform(s).

Keeping the price down and bumping up the luxury is likely more important to buyers.

Plus, Hyundai would make better use of its development $$ to expand its lux lineup sooner than later (a couple of CUVs, etc.) instead of spending it developing a whole new platform.

 

[Aquineas]

^ Don't think it is the worst thing for the Genesis, Equus, etc. to be a generation behind the Germans (or at least BMW and Audi) in platform(s).

Keeping the price down and bumping up the luxury is likely more important to buyers.

Plus, Hyundai would make better use of its development $$ to expand its lux lineup sooner than later (a couple of CUVs, etc.) instead of spending it developing a whole new platform.

I agree Hyundai needs to have a good CUV story so they definitely need to invest some there. Midsized sedans are in decline (though personally I don't understand it).

We disagree somewhat about the Genesis. Hyundai is picking up steam with the Genesis against a very skeptical public and is winning converts. If they don't continue to innovate with it, they will end up in the same bucket as the Infiniti M series which are lovely cars that nobody buys. Maybe they can get sufficient weight savings from aluminum hood and deck etc as you mention, but how much is enough? I honestly don't know the answer to that and don't know what's a reasonable number. One thing's for sure, I don't want to give up one iota of torsional rigidity, and if anything I would like to see a little more torsional rigidity in the rear.

I also see it differently with regards to the interior. The interior in it's current state is very, very close to being as luxurious as that on an E-Class or 5 series. There are a couple of nits, but those nits probably are tweaks rather than substantial changes.

 

[YEH]

^ The Infiniti M/Q70 lost sales as Infiniti tried to make up for not having a proper flagship sedan and upped the luxury of the M and hence the price - still lower than the 5er or E Class comparably equipped, but now close enough that most buyers figured - might as well get the German.

The M/Q70 (as well as the Lexus GS) also happened to lose sales about the same time the Genesis launched (which I don't think is a coincidence).

Infiniti has had the most success w/ the G/Q50 b/c it offered the best bang for the buck in their lineup - more spacious than the other entry-level sedans, but still cheaper (esp. the lease deals).

MB didn't go w/ a new state of the art platforms for the S Class or new C Class and yet both are selling like gangbusters - offering what the majority of the lux segment prefers - increased luxury, amenities and passenger space.

As I stated before, Hyundai can cut weight and/or increase fuel economy w/o having to go w/ a whole new platform, including going w/ an e-AWD system instead of a mechanical AWD system.

And the $$ for the near future would be better spent on developing a luxury CUV (or 2), a smaller displacement FI V8, a DCT for RWD/AWD which can handle 300+ HP, more advanced near-autonomous driving tech, etc.

It's not so much not spending the $$/advancing as it is spending the $$ wisely - something that Hyundai management (like most automakers) don't always do.

Case in point, building 2 additional plants in an already glutted China market while not having enough CUV capacity for the NA market.

 

[Sal Collaziano]

The Infiniti M/Q70 is a really nice car but I see it the same way. Might as well buy an E-Class or 5-Series. That was a really stupid move by Infiniti. Really stupid. Nobody wants a midsizer made bigger to fill in the whole for a real fullsize car. Acura isn't doing too well with that either - RL/RLX. Where do these high paid executives come up with these ridiculous ideas.

Buick's LaCrosse is doing 'fairly' well taking over for a flagship but it's still no replacement. However, it's getting bigger and bigger with each generation...