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Hyundai's challenges with the 3rd Generation Genesis (speculation)

^ The Infiniti M/Q70 lost sales as Infiniti tried to make up for not having a proper flagship sedan and upped the luxury of the M and hence the price - still lower than the 5er or E Class comparably equipped, but now close enough that most buyers figured - might as well get the German.

The M/Q70 (as well as the Lexus GS) also happened to lose sales about the same time the Genesis launched (which I don't think is a coincidence).

Infiniti has had the most success w/ the G/Q50 b/c it offered the best bang for the buck in their lineup - more spacious than the other entry-level sedans, but still cheaper (esp. the lease deals).

MB didn't go w/ a new state of the art platforms for the S Class or new C Class and yet both are selling like gangbusters - offering what the majority of the lux segment prefers - increased luxury, amenities and passenger space.

As I stated before, Hyundai can cut weight and/or increase fuel economy w/o having to go w/ a whole new platform, including going w/ an e-AWD system instead of a mechanical AWD system.

And the $$ for the near future would be better spent on developing a luxury CUV (or 2), a smaller displacement FI V8, a DCT for RWD/AWD which can handle 300+ HP, more advanced near-autonomous driving tech, etc.

It's not so much not spending the $$/advancing as it is spending the $$ wisely - something that Hyundai management (like most automakers) don't always do.

Case in point, building 2 additional plants in an already glutted China market while not having enough CUV capacity for the NA market.

This is very revisionist...the Genesis did not affect any Infiniti or Lexus sales in any way that mattered. Lexus in particular has sales up and has never sold better.

Genesis sedans are still not separated so no one has any idea how well it sells. Its all speculation.

The major luxury brands in this segment have sales up this year so the Genesis sells to a small core group with few converts outside of the 5 very vocal people who scream on the internet how much better the Genesis is vs a real luxury brand.
 
This is very revisionist...the Genesis did not affect any Infiniti or Lexus sales in any way that mattered. Lexus in particular has sales up and has never sold better.

Genesis sedans are still not separated so no one has any idea how well it sells. Its all speculation.

The major luxury brands in this segment have sales up this year so the Genesis sells to a small core group with few converts outside of the 5 very vocal people who scream on the internet how much better the Genesis is vs a real luxury brand.

I think the Genesis may affect sales for luxury brands but perhaps not the top tiers. Acura and Infiniti come to mind. Cadillac. Lincoln... Sure, a few people will choose a Genesis over a Lexus but probably not enough to cause any concern to Toyota executives...

I don't think anyone actually feels the Genesis is "better" than other luxury cars - most specifically those that come from Mercedes, BMW and Audi. I do think people feel the Genesis is a "better deal" for the money...
 
This is very revisionist...the Genesis did not affect any Infiniti or Lexus sales in any way that mattered. Lexus in particular has sales up and has never sold better.

Genesis sedans are still not separated so no one has any idea how well it sells. Its all speculation.

The major luxury brands in this segment have sales up this year so the Genesis sells to a small core group with few converts outside of the 5 very vocal people who scream on the internet how much better the Genesis is vs a real luxury brand.

When the last 2015 Genesis recalls were announced it was stated that 24,000 cars were affected.
 
I think the Genesis may affect sales for luxury brands but perhaps not the top tiers. Acura and Infiniti come to mind. Cadillac. Lincoln... Sure, a few people will choose a Genesis over a Lexus but probably not enough to cause any concern to Toyota executives...

I don't think anyone actually feels the Genesis is "better" than other luxury cars - most specifically those that come from Mercedes, BMW and Audi. I do think people feel the Genesis is a "better deal" for the money...

I think the Genesis does without a doubt impact sales of the other luxury brands. Just look at how many people on this forum are previous BMW MB drivers. However, from a marketing perspective what I see is a demographic of people who are happy Sonata/Santa Fe/Tuscon owners who are now financially able to move to the next level in luxury and see the Genesis as the only obvious choice.

I bet there are a lot of Accent-Elantra-Tuscan Sonata owners who are looking at the Genesis as their luxury vehicle of choice as soon as they are able to to afford the jump. If I were in marketing, and I am, this is who I would be selling to.
 
I think the Genesis does without a doubt impact sales of the other luxury brands. Just look at how many people on this forum are previous BMW MB drivers.

You could be right. I just don't think enough to make the top tier brands worry. But I could be wrong...
 
I own a MB ML350 and it has been superb since the day I took delivery in 2012. Comfort, ride quality, technology, safety features and impeccable materials and finish are high on my list and this vehicle has all that and more - in spades. And not to be ignored is the high quality dealer experience that one expects from the brand. I have driven everything under the sun in my fifty years of car ownership and this Benz has been the best vehicle I have ever owned, and by a considerable margin.

The warranty expires after four years (next May) and that is when I trade cars. I am now looking at sedans and if I decide to go that route, the Genesis is high on my list of cars I want to check out. I have not even driven a Genesis yet but from user and professional reviews I have read it is certainly a car I should not ignore. Also on my list is the Mercedes E-class, and to a slightly lessor extent, the Audi A6.

I mentioned in another thread here that although I can afford an MB or Audi, I am not stuck on a badge, even one as distinguished as the three pointed star. At this point in my life I want a luxury vehicle but I also want value, reliability and performance. These are the very things that make the Genesis an attractive alternative to the more traditional luxury labels which, although generally excellent, can be at times very temperamental and expensive.

I don't think you will find all that many German or British car enthusiasts cross shopping the Genesis so I do not see Hyundai as a direct threat to them - yet. They are, however, a more immediate threat to Infiniti, Accura and Lexus, not to mention Cadillac and Lincoln. To those of us that are not married to a particular marquis, the Genesis has evolved to where it has earned and deserves a test drive and serious consideration.
 
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This is very revisionist...the Genesis did not affect any Infiniti or Lexus sales in any way that mattered. Lexus in particular has sales up and has never sold better.

Genesis sedans are still not separated so no one has any idea how well it sells. Its all speculation.

The major luxury brands in this segment have sales up this year so the Genesis sells to a small core group with few converts outside of the 5 very vocal people who scream on the internet how much better the Genesis is vs a real luxury brand.

As usual, you post w/o specifics/facts and misleading generalities.

The 4G GS has yet to come close to the best sales yr for the 3G GS (and that's despite the 4G GS getting a lot more praise from the auto publications than the 3G GS ever received, luxury sales being better than ever and Lexus/dealerships being more generous w/ incentives/deals as the value of the Yen has dropped immensely over the past few years).

GS sales

2005 - 33,457
2006 - 27,390
2007 - 23,381
2008 - 15,759 (granted, some of the sales drop here and for the next couple of yrs can be attributed to the financial meltdown...)
2009 - 7430
2010 - 7059
2011 - 3746
2012 - 22,160 (...but even after the economy recovered, in particular for the higher income households, GS sales never managed to come close to its previous peak even with the 4G model launch).
2013 - 19,742
2014 - 22,198


Same thing happened to the M/Q70


M/Q70 sales

2005 - 24,000
2006 - 25,658
2007 - 21,884
2008 - 15,618
2009 - 8501
2010 - 14,618 (new model launch)
2011 - 10,818
2012 - 9130
2013 - 5283
2014 - 5034

But in contrast, the E Class saw a short 2 yr dip and then saw its best sales yrs. as the luxury auto market boomed with the lop-sided recovery.

Mercedes E Class

2005 - 50,383
2006 - 50,195
2007 - 48,950
2008 - 38,576
2009 - 43,072 (new model launch)
2010 - 60,922
2011 - 62,736
2012 - 65,171
2013 - 69,803
2014 - 66,400

As we can see the E Class, from 2011-2014, was selling a good bit better than even during the heydays of the bubble (2005-2007).

Meanwhile, neither of the current GS and M/Q70 have managed to come close to the top sales years of their previous generation.

And as for Lexus sales increasing, while that it is true (still not as good as for 2006 and 2007) - it is wholly at the bottom/entry-level pricepoint w/ the RX, ES, IS and now the addition of the NX.

Higher-end sedan sales for Lexus, otoh, have never been lower and the % of Lexus sales dependent on cheaper FWD models and basically rebadged Toyota SUVs has never been higher.
 
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The Infiniti M/Q70 is a really nice car but I see it the same way. Might as well buy an E-Class or 5-Series. That was a really stupid move by Infiniti. Really stupid. Nobody wants a midsizer made bigger to fill in the whole for a real fullsize car. Acura isn't doing too well with that either - RL/RLX. Where do these high paid executives come up with these ridiculous ideas.

Buick's LaCrosse is doing 'fairly' well taking over for a flagship but it's still no replacement. However, it's getting bigger and bigger with each generation...

The Japanese still have to compete against the Germans (esp. MB and BMW) on the basis of value (hence, the LS460 being considerably cheaper than the 7 Series, much less the S Class) and once that equation becomes less enticing sales drop.

Q70 sales YTD are almost at 2014 levels as sales have increased due to the addition of the LWB Q70L model (which was developed for the China market - which would not be a bad idea for Cadillac to do w/ the ATS and CTS until their more spacious replacements are ready).

The added rear passenger space for less than $2k ups the value equation.
 
Higher-end sedan sales for Lexus, otoh, have never been lower and the % of Lexus sales dependent on cheaper FWD models and basically rebadged Toyota SUVs has never been higher.
It always amazes me when people on this forum complain about a Lexus being nothing more than a rebadged Toyota. Is a Hyundai Genesis a rebadged Hyundai? No, the Genesis is a Hyundai badged Hyundai (at least until owners take the Hyundai badge off)!!!
 
^ All Lexus models are Toyotas -period.

The LS is basically a Toyota, as is the ES (just sold thru a separate sales channel).

The difference is that one uses a proper luxury RWD platform and the other shares a platform with the mainstream Avalon.

Why do you think Acura has never gotten the status of Lexus?

Lexus has RWD sedan models, Acura does not.

Hence, the LS (much less the Equus) being included in luxury flagship comparison tests while the RLX...

Hyundai could have eschewed both RWD and a luxury brand and done a luxury FWD-based sedan like the RLX (or more like the TL) and it would never have gotten the credibility that the Genesis sedan has gotten (heck, they could have gone ahead with a separate lux brand but w/ FWD and even w/ the lux marque, would not have gotten the same credibility as a Hyundai badged RWD sedan).

Same reason why the Toyota Crown Majesta is seen as being real luxury compared to the ES (in fact, the Crown Majesta is higher up on the ToyoCo sedan hierarchy than the GS).

Don't be so infatuated w/ badges/marketing.
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^ All Lexus models are Toyotas -period.

The LS is basically a Toyota, as is the ES (just sold thru a separate sales channel).

The difference is that one uses a proper luxury RWD platform and the other shares a platform with the mainstream Avalon.

Why do you think Acura has never gotten the status of Lexus?

Lexus has RWD sedan models, Acura does not.

Hence, the LS (much less the Equus) being included in luxury flagship comparison tests while the RLX...

Hyundai could have eschewed both RWD and a luxury brand and done a luxury FWD-based sedan like the RLX (or more like the TL) and it would never have gotten the credibility that the Genesis sedan has gotten (heck, they could have gone ahead with a separate lux brand but w/ FWD and even w/ the lux marque, would not have gotten the same credibility as a Hyundai badged RWD sedan).

Same reason why the Toyota Crown Majesta is seen as being real luxury compared to the ES (in fact, the Crown Majesta is higher up on the ToyoCo sedan hierarchy than the GS).

Don't be so infatuated w/ badges/marketing.
Complete, unadulterated BS.
 
^ What is WRONG with you?

Of course, the Genesis is a Hyundai - who is saying anything different?

That doesn't change the fact that all Lexus models are Toyotas, Infinitis - Nissans, Acuras - Hondas.

Just being sold thru different sales channels depending on market.

Hence, Infinitis and Acuras still sold as Nissans and Hondas in Japan and other markets and why the TSX was an Acura in NA, but an Accord in Europe; the JDM Civic being the same as the Acura CSX for Canada.

Do you really think the Scion FR-S is any different from the Toyota 86 - just b/c it has a different badge?

And let's see you try to rebut my so-called unadultered BS (which frankly, is what you have been known to do repeatedly) - instead of making rash/superficial judgments based on nothing.
 
^ What is WRONG with you?

Of course, the Genesis is a Hyundai - who is saying anything different?

That doesn't change the fact that all Lexus models are Toyotas, Infinitis - Nissans, Acuras - Hondas.

Just being sold thru different sales channels depending on market.

Hence, Infinitis and Acuras still sold as Nissans and Hondas in Japan and other markets and why the TSX was an Acura in NA, but an Accord in Europe; the JDM Civic being the same as the Acura CSX for Canada.

Do you really think the Scion FR-S is any different from the Toyota 86 - just b/c it has a different badge?

And let's see you try to rebut my so-called unadultered BS (which frankly, is what you have been known to do repeatedly) - instead of making rash/superficial judgments based on nothing.
What is your point? If I buy a Lexus, Acura, or whatever, all I care about is that it is a good vehicle at a good price. In most cases, Lexus and Acura have been above average, or way above average, over the years since 1986 when the Acura Legend first hit the USA.

Since everyone on this forum knows that Lexus is a division of Toyota Motor Company, the only reason for you to mention that over and over again is to somehow make a slur against Lexus products. So please don't deny it.

When Ford bought Jaguar the quality of Jaguar cars improved dramatically. Jaguar. Since 2008 Jaguar has been owned by the Indian company Tata Motors.
 
The purpose of the creating Lexus and Infiniti, etc. is not to fool anyone into thinking the car isn't made by Toyota or Nissan.

Its to provide a separate showroom for an upscale buying experience and a separate service area to enhance that experience, too.

Hyundai is able to offer a lower price on the Genesis, in part, because you get the Hyundai buying and service experience, which is a long way from the Lexus experience.
 
What is your point? If I buy a Lexus, Acura, or whatever, all I care about is that it is a good vehicle at a good price. In most cases, Lexus and Acura have been above average, or way above average, over the years since 1986 when the Acura Legend first hit the USA.

Since everyone on this forum knows that Lexus is a division of Toyota Motor Company, the only reason for you to mention that over and over again is to somehow make a slur against Lexus products. So please don't deny it.

You think I'm the only one who has ever dismissed the FWD-based Lexus models? lol

Auto publications have done that seen the ES was launched, much less the RX.

And it's not just the FWD Lexus models, but Acura and Lincoln as a whole and Cadillac with the XTS and SRX.

Here's an excerpt from a recent C&D review of the MKZ Hybrid Black Label.

Yep, 55 grand.

Why lead this review with a price breakdown? Because it underscores the point we’ve made about the MKZ all along, which is that it doesn’t offer a whole lot more than the Ford Fusion with which it shared its mechanicals—all but one of the powertrains and even the infotainment setups are identical—yet it is far more expensive. Indeed, this particular MKZ is nearly as expensive as possible, which makes its shortcomings stand out even more.

In fact, can't think of too many MKZ reviews which haven't mentioned the Fusion (and stated, might as well get a Fusion Titanium).

And I don't exactly see you refuting anything that I had written which you categorized as BS.

The Aslan is Hyundai's competitor to the ES - do you really think it would have gotten the attention, much less the respect by the automotive press that the 1G (much less the 2G) Genesis has gotten - even if it was sold under some luxury marque?

And even w/o a luxury marque - the 2G Genesis has been in comparisons against the GS, the XF and CTS (would never see that w/ the Aslan, luxury badged or not, esp. as we don't see that with the ES).

And the Equus right off the bat has been included in flagship comparison tests.

Oh gee, where is the RLX? (heck, the RLX has a hard time being included in the midsize comparisons w/ the 5 Series, E Class, etc.).

And despite being the 1st Asian automaker to launch a premium brand and hence having all that time to build up brand prestige, much less, a loyal buyer base, Acura has been struggling to sell sedans (can also say the same for Infiniti and these days, even Lexus at the higher end).

And that's even with Acura dropping down half a segment in price - with the ILX and TLX instead of the TSX and TL.

Shouldn't it be going the other way as the competition is only getting more expensive? And that includes Hyundai as the Genesis has already gone from $32k to $38k and with the 3G model, should pass he $40k mark to start.

Even automakers know that FWD < RWD, esp. at the higher end of the market - which is why Audi does not offer the A7 or A8 w/o Quattro in the US and why Infiniti placed the old FX/QX70 higher up on its new nomeclature hierarchy than the larger, but FWD-based JX/QX60.

It's the same reason why a top Lincoln exec stated that Lincoln will no longer directly compete head to head w/ Cadillac (after nearly a century of doing so) as Cadillac is in the process of switching to an all RWD-based lineup or nearly one (the XTS is on its way out and the upcoming SRX replacement, the XT5 is likely a stop-gap, until a new midsize RWD platform is ready - which will 1st be used on the CTS replacement w/ the FWD midsize CUV being taken over by Buick; which totally makes sense since the Lacrosse is GM's competitor to the ES).

Maybe you should stop trying to be so much like RickyBobby and actually come up with salient points (backed up by actual facts) to refute what I have written instead of merely repeatedly stating your opinion that it is baseless.
 
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I,m with mass matters thinkers. If and I do say if understanding the word's limitation I ever hit the lottery you will see me in a converted military truck of some sort that maybe gets one mile per gallon. Fast and light is fun but crashing or being crashed is always better if you are the one in the tank. Until then I hope the air bags really do work.
 
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