Why not the Lexus ES350?

[JPW]

I'm not trying to cause a problem by asking a question like this. I'm only curious because I'm asking myself the same thing.

I just test drove a Lexus ES350 and a Genesis V8 back to back. They are very different cars in some ways but very similar in others. The price between the two cars seems pretty close. In my case I simply don't fit well in the ES350 at 6'4" tall. I do fit in the Genesis but I wonder if I were 3 or 4 inches shorter how would that effect my decision.

I suspect many other Genesis owners compared the Lexus ES350 before buying the Genesis. Would you mind sharing why? Was it a number of things or maybe one specific item?

 

[jwaters943]

The ES is simply less car for the money.

Well-equipped you're looking at loaded Genesis V8 money for a FWD V6 Camry-based midsize sedan. With the Genesis you get RWD, bigger back seat, more horsepower/torque, better looks (subjective), and a slightly quieter vehicle. The ES gives you better dealership treatment, resale and a somewhat smoother ride. Overall the Genesis is simply a better car. The upcoming Kia VZ & next-generation Azera should be much more comparable to the ES than the Genesis.

 

[JPW]

All really good points. I had the exact same thoughts but I can't believe I didn't think of the V6 Lexus vs. the V8 Genesis. I'm not someone who drives very fast so I guess that is why it didn't really fall in my own radar.

You did mention one thing that I'm still in disbelief about after driving both cars. I almost feel like there was something wrong with the ES350 I drove because the Genesis was much quiter. My Honda Accord was even quieter than the ES350 which I don't understand. I did check the sunroof and all the windows and the doors. Oh well, another vote for the Genesis in this category!

 

[PINGGOLF]

Well...here is my 2 cents.

Final price for my MAXED out ES350: 49,399

Final price for my MAXED out Genesis V8: around $40k

The reason, besides the $9k, were:

375 PONIES
26 MPG
The "COOL" factor...especially with the winged badge
The warranty
SAFETY
Did I mention the "COOL" factor...
REAR WHEEL DRIVE!!!
MORE overall interior room than the LS

I could go on and on.

I am a DIE HARD Toyota guy...so you can only imagine how hard it was for me to NOT purchase the Lexus.

Think long and hard and enjoy either one!

 

[Turanacus]

Why not the Toyota Camry Limited?

 

[wallymn]

From Lexus I tested the GS not ES. As others have said the ES is a rebadged Camry. The GS is a rwd sedan.

My problem was the GS460 was just too much money for not a lot more car.

Best price in my area was 52k. Which is 12.5 k more than the best price on the Genesis.

 

[Soldier76]

Shame on lexus for making this rebadged Camry. I had a 2008 Toyota Camry Ltd V6 with everything but Nav and heated seats for a year and a couple months. I was going to trade my Camry (Transmission issues) for a Lexus ES 350. The dealership let me keep the car for a couple of days to test drive it. All I can say is "WOW" it was like I never left the Camry. The transmission had the same issues even though the Camry was front wheel drive and the Lexus was rear wheel.

The wind noise in both cabins was still intrusive like nothing I ever heard in a Lexus vehicle before. The transmission shifting was indecisive as if it was trying to find the right gear. The ride wasn't as refined as the GS 350 (you can feel the road and bumps a whole lot more). As for gizmos and gadgets hands down the lexus destroys the camry. IMO I really don't think the ES 350 is in the same league as the Genesis V6 or V8. Try bumpin up to the GS 350 or GS 460 then we can compare.

 

[jwaters943]

Soldier76:

The Lexus ES350 is not RWD. It's FWD just like the Camry.

 

[ImInPA]

I looked at the ES 350. I think the interior is far nicer (my opinion) than the Genesis, BMW 3, Mercedes C, Volvo S80, etc. That said, I test drove an ES on three separate occasions and every one of them had a rattle in the dash. The ES like the Camry it is based on are EPA classified as large cars. I just didn't get the price for a "tarted-up camry." With the Genesis, you are getting a purpose-built original of extremely high quality. With the ES350, you are getting a re-badged common family sedan.

 

[jwaters943]

Actually, no it's not rated as a large sedan by the EPA. It's barely a midsize sedan at 110.1 cu ft of interior space (trunk = 14.7 and passenger compartment = 95.4). EPA Size Classification Info.: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vehicle_size_class

As far as the interior goes, this is so subjective. I'm intimately familiar w/ the ES and most Lexus products. Aside from the wood trim which is real and far richer looking than the plood in the Genesis, I cannot think of one thing about the interior that looks/feels noticeably better. Not the dash plastics, not the carpeting, not the leather, and definitely not the mismatched pale green center stack lighting.

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[Soldier76]

Sorry, bout that I knew those TRANSMISSIONS were the same crazy saleman got me. I told him I was having problems with the camry transmission so he gave me the spiel on how the vehicles were completely different and made in different assembly plants Blah, blah, blah, rear wheel drive. Good thing I test drove it though. Thanks for the correction.

 

[BigElm]

Moving this to Competition forum....

 

[Mark_888]

I'm not trying to cause a problem by asking a question like this. I'm only curious because I'm asking myself the same thing.

I just test drove a Lexus ES350 and a Genesis V8 back to back. They are very different cars in some ways but very similar in others. The price between the two cars seems pretty close. In my case I simply don't fit well in the ES350 at 6'4" tall. I do fit in the Genesis but I wonder if I were 3 or 4 inches shorter how would that effect my decision.

I suspect many other Genesis owners compared the Lexus ES350 before buying the Genesis. Would you mind sharing why? Was it a number of things or maybe one specific item?

I agree with your assessment. I probably would have bought a ES instead of the Genesis (partly because reliability is very important to me), except that when I went to the Lexus dealer, I realized it was designed for midgets.

 

[Mark_888]

I looked at the ES 350. I think the interior is far nicer (my opinion) than the Genesis, BMW 3, Mercedes C, Volvo S80, etc. That said, I test drove an ES on three separate occasions and every one of them had a rattle in the dash. The ES like the Camry it is based on are EPA classified as large cars. I just didn't get the price for a "tarted-up camry." With the Genesis, you are getting a purpose-built original of extremely high quality. With the ES350, you are getting a re-badged common family sedan.

There was a time when it was simply a rebadged Camry with very minor differences, but that is not really true any more. Yes, it is built on the same frame, and has a similar engine as the Camry V6 (although tweaked a bit), but since the Toyota V6 used in the Camry is one of the most reliable engines in the world, what's wrong with that? The Genesis 3.8 V6 has basically the same engine as several other Hyundai and Kia (yes Kia) vehicles. So what?

In addition to a nicer interior, the ES350 has more soundproofing, and a better suspension than the Camry V6 (which is no slouch of a car).

Being a person very concerned about reliability (time is money even if there is a warranty), I am not interested in exclusivity, I am more interested in quality. In some ways, the two are mutually exclusive, because widely used components usually have design flaws worked out, and they wouldn't widely used if they were functioned poorly.

 

[JPW]

I agree with your assessment. I probably would have bought a ES instead of the Genesis (partly because reliability is very important to me), except that when I went to the Lexus dealer, I realized it was designed for midgets.

I mentioned this to my Hyundai dealer and he told me the Lexus ES350 was only designed by Lexus for women. He said that is why the interior is so small and then he went on to discuss why the Genesis is so much better. Its hard for me to tell whether salesman are actually telling me the truth or not but I have a hard time seeing that Lexus would only design the ES350 with women in mind. Of course for me it isn't a big deal either way. If it was designed for women and I loved it chances are I would still buy it.

 

[Mark_888]

I mentioned this to my Hyundai dealer and he told me the Lexus ES350 was only designed by Lexus for women. He said that is why the interior is so small and then he went on to discuss why the Genesis is so much better. Its hard for me to tell whether salesman are actually telling me the truth or not but I have a hard time seeing that Lexus would only design the ES350 with women in mind. Of course for me it isn't a big deal either way. If it was designed for women and I loved it chances are I would still buy it.

There is no limit to the BS that an auto salesman will come up with to make a sale.

 

[ImInPA]

First of all, I was wrong about the Camry's size classification. It is mid-size. It sure seems big when you are sitting in one though. And has a very roomy rear seat. With regards to reliability, no one can ever throw a stone at Toyota's legendary drive-train reliability. As I stated in my post above, each of the three different ES 350's I tested had rattles in the dash and various less bothersome plasticky rattles in the cabin. I found this surprising in a vehicle with the Lexus badge. This does not mean that the car will not be reliable. I had a chevy Malibu back in the 70's that was very reliable, but creaked and rattled like a styrofoam cooler filled with empty beer cans.

I also should have mentioned that I find the "design and look" of the ES350 to be the best and most luxurious of the list of car I mention. This is obviously a subjective opinion of mine. I apologize to any and all if I gave the impression that I thought the ES 350's materials were better than any of the cars listed in my above post. The material used in all of the cars I mentioned above are all excellent, and as mentioned above in another post, the wood trim in the Lexus simply is among the best of any vehicle.

The bottom line for me is this: Now matter how gussied up Toyota wants to make their FWD Camry, and, no matter what they care to call it, once I scratched the surface of the car, factored in the rattles, realized that they have discontinued the Mark Levinson system for the ES, I would recommend any of the other vehicles listed in my above post over the Lexus ES 350. The Genesis in particular, I feel, is in a significantly higher class of vehicle's for the sake of comparison.

 

[scottdk]

Guess I'll put my two cents in.

Anyone else feel that the ES350 has very bland styling and also just a super boring car? It makes me want to yawn and just reminds me of a Camry.

I do however, love the GS350/GS460's styling, but am super glad I bought the Genesis.

 

[Mark_888]

Guess I'll put my two cents in.

Anyone else feel that the ES350 has very bland styling and also just a super boring car? It makes me want to yawn and just reminds me of a Camry.

I do however, love the GS350/GS460's styling, but am super glad I bought the Genesis.

I don't particularly like the ES350 styling either. But I didn't like the styling on my 1998 Camry V6 that I had for 11 years, which ran as good as new when I sold it. The only non-scheduled maintenance I had to have performed was an EGR valve replaced (and charcoal cannister was replaced for free under the 8 year emissions warranty).

Some people have different priorities when buying a car.

 

[PINGGOLF]

Moving this to Competition forum....

Wow! That went right over my head....sorry I didnt catch it!