Number of Genesis sold in USA in 2017 and 2018

[Mark_888]

1. The AMG is an E class

2. Again...a 6 clinders have been available in the 7 series for years...looks like 90%( or more) opted for the V8
MB has also done the same 6 cylinder standard with the S class....and buyers bought the V8 overwhelmingly

3. So what..Mercedes like BMW made more AWD automobiles available

4.Most of the E classes I see( including my next door neighbors) are AWD and his is not a 4 cylinder

5. BMW sells more sedans in the United States than SUV's...so it seems you have a less than typical sightings

6. and this is significant for what reason?...do you think the Kia stinger will be a "niche" car
and frankly one could say the last Kia K900 was a niche car based on its sales volume

Warren

The AMG versions start at very high prices, For example, the AMG E-Class V8 starts at over $100K.

The fact is that MB E Class has downsized the engine on the most popular E Class model sold in the US to a 4 cylinder turbo. It does get plenty of HP and torque, compared to the old V6, so I am not saying there is anything wrong with that. I was merely pointing out that smaller turbo engines appears to be a trend across the auto industry, including the G90.

 

[ballistic]

didn't Cadillac have their V variants in model year 2 of the CTS and ATS?

Technically we are several years in on the G80...since it is a rebadged Hyundai Genesis
The G90 in in year two in the United states and may be further in Korea...I am not sure

Warren

i don't mean first generation of a specific model. i mean first generation of a new brand. hyundai wanted to start a new luxury brand and while having cars that competed with the m5 and e63 would have been nice, it was not in the best interests of the brand when hardly anyone would have bought them. concentrating on making great luxury cars and suvs is of primary importance. not competing with m and amg unless you already have all your i's dotted and t's crossed.

this site is filled with complaints about genesis motors. can you imagine how much worse it would be if genesis spread itself so thin to have amg competitors right now?

 

[turnne]

The AMG versions start at very high prices, For example, the AMG E-Class V8 starts at over $100K.

The fact is that MB E Class has downsized the engine on the most popular E Class model sold in the US to a 4 cylinder turbo. It does get plenty of HP and torque, compared to the old V6, so I am not saying there is anything wrong with that. I was merely pointing out that smaller turbo engines appears to be a trend across the auto industry, including the G90.

A price on a automobile is only high if the market is not willing to pay it

The 400HP version of the E class AMG starts at about $72K
While it is a V6...its has the power of the outgoing 5.5 liter V8 and actually has more features for about the same price as the last generation E550

I am not sure I would get caught up in what engine is standard. Look at the engine combination that buyers are selecting
I think the manufacturers play game with both standard engine and standard equipment to play games with CAFE standards and also to show a price on the car that is not realistic
As I said before...look how long a 6 cylinder has been standard in a 7 series and yet it seems that at least 90% of the buyers are opting for the V8

Closer in class and price to the G90
The Cadillac CT6 has a standard 4 cylinder...but I don't think I have ever seen one on the road with that engine

Look( and price out the new Lexus LS500. It has a very low teaser base price
But when you go to add about any option it makes you add a mandatory package that raises the price by almost $15K
If I were a betting man I bet we wont see many of those base models LS500's on the road

Warren

 

[turnne]

i don't mean first generation of a specific model. i mean first generation of a new brand. hyundai wanted to start a new luxury brand and while having cars that competed with the m5 and e63 would have been nice, it was not in the best interests of the brand when hardly anyone would have bought them. concentrating on making great luxury cars and suvs is of primary importance. not competing with m and amg unless you already have all your i's dotted and t's crossed.

this site is filled with complaints about genesis motors. can you imagine how much worse it would be if genesis spread itself so thin to have amg competitors right now?

I don't disagree

The only one to be playing in that field( other than the Germans) is Cadillac...and frankly their V cars have been well reviewed against the competitors

Warren

 

[ballistic]

I don't disagree

The only one to be playing in that field( other than the Germans) is Cadillac...and frankly their V cars have been well reviewed against the competitors

Warren

i'm a little bitter when people ask why genesis doesn't have an m5 competitor because it's what all the naysayers bring up when we mention how great genesis cars really are. it's always, 'well what do they have to compare to the m5?!' - nothing, you nitwit. they're just getting started. give them a break. so even when i see reasonable people ask where these cars are, it's alittle aggravating.

 

[Mark_888]

I am not sure I would get caught up in what engine is standard.

I am not caught up. All I said is that many automakers are moving to smaller displacement turbo engines to replace their larger displacement non-turbos. I mentioned several manufacturers, including MB E-Class, Honda Accord, some Hyundai models, etc. The G90 3.3T is one of those examples (even though the 5.0 V8 is still available).

Also, I never said that consumers like the change to smaller displacement turbos, but when that's all that is available, they don't have much choice. So sales of the V8 G90 are probably limited by the number manufactured, and not by customer demand.

 

[turnne]

Also, I never said that consumers like the change to smaller displacement turbos, but when that's all that is available, they don't have much choice. So sales of the V8 G90 are probably limited by the number manufactured, and not by customer demand.

One would have to ask then
If a consumer wants something and a manufacturer doesn't provide it..what they do?

Go elsewhere

Simple as that

Warren

 

[Mark_888]

One would have to ask then
If a consumer wants something and a manufacturer doesn't provide it..what they do?

Go elsewhere

Simple as that

Warren

Maybe, but a lot of Genesis buyers in 2016 went for the 3.8 V6 , even though they wanted the V8 (which were only available for a couple of months of the model year in the USA). Over the years, I have heard a lot of complaints on this forum that not enough V8 models were produced, so many people bought the V6 anyway.

 

[YEH]

and the Korean market has zero to do with the United States...

The Korean market has a lot to do which what models Hyundai/Genesis decides to bring to production - which was the point of my post (which went totally over your head).

Not only that, lux sedans still big sellers in China, where the Genesis brand has plans to expand.

But that is where the majority of the full size luxury sedan sales volumes is...in the European brands.

Really only MB, and maybe BMW.

Audi and Jaguar are role players.

The rumor mill is still going that Cadillac is going to roll out another car...a flagship above its Ct6....with an all new 500HP V8 to compete with the Germans

It's not a rumor - Cadillac will be bringing a production version of the Escala (CT7/CT8?) concept to production.

The CT6 will be Cadillac's E Class and 5 Series competitor.

1. The AMG is an E class

The point is, the Germans have started limiting their V8 engines on their midsize offering to their performance variants.

Suspect that Genesis will develop a smaller displacement FI V8 not only for flagship duty, but for an eventual performance variant of the G80 and GV80.

And as for AMG, it's basically a sub-brand for Mercedes as they have been opening up AMG-only stores.

 

[turnne]

The Korean market has a lot to do which what models Hyundai/Genesis decides to bring to production - which was the point of my post (which went totally over your head).

Not only that, lux sedans still big sellers in China, where the Genesis brand has plans to expand.

No..Didn't go over me head at all
I said what they do in Korea is not relevant to the United States..ie..what sells in Korea has nothing to with what sells in the United States
Perhaps my initial comment went over your head?

Really only MB, and maybe BMW.

Audi and Jaguar are role players.

MB and BMW most certainly..Audi to a certain extent in the United States comparatively
Jaguar is not a factor... and they are liable to be sold yet again
Unlike Hyundai..etc..jaguar doesn't have a line of bread and butter cars to support their luxury cars in the United States

It's not a rumor - Cadillac will be bringing a production version of the Escala (CT7/CT8?) concept to production.

The CT6 will be Cadillac's E Class and 5 Series competitor.

The CT6 will also get the new 500HP v8 as well as Cadillac's super cruise system and upcoming parking pilot
To your point they will compete with technology from the Germans

Their upcoming car will be more upscale will likely have better finishes, more advanced technology and more customization that can be found in the under 100K competition I suspect

The point is, the Germans have started limiting their V8 engines on their midsize offering to their performance variants.

Suspect that Genesis will develop a smaller displacement FI V8 not only for flagship duty, but for an eventual performance variant of the G80 and GV80.

And as for AMG, it's basically a sub-brand for Mercedes as they have been opening up AMG-only stores.

As I said before
The AMG 43 has about the same sticker( and more features/sport) than the prior E550 ...and has about 400HP
I suspect those that bought the V8 E class wanted sport...so Mercedes gave them sport and more features at the same price

I would imagine it would be more important for Genesis to make their V8 more HP competitive than looking at high out put variants of smaller engines that don't exist in production yet
Check out what other luxury V8 HP outputs are

I am speaking for US buyers
If buyers are cross shopping the Cadillac CT6 to the G90....which I think is highly likely...there is some engine and technology choices that make the G90 come up short

Warren

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[turnne]

Maybe, but a lot of Genesis buyers in 2016 went for the 3.8 V6 , even though they wanted the V8 (which were only available for a couple of months of the model year in the USA). Over the years, I have heard a lot of complaints on this forum that not enough V8 models were produced, so many people bought the V6 anyway.

or they just bought another car that had a V8....and skipped on a Genesis

Warren

 

[YEH]

and expect the G90 numbers to fall as well... I expect the LS will sell at 3X times the G90

I am not sure why you compare a G90 to an S class
You should be using the E class as a litmus test

B/c the G90 competes in the flagship segment; the G80 competes in the segment w/ the E Class.

Consumer Reports, JD Power and auto pubs like Car & Driver and Motor Trend have the G90 in the same segment as the S Class and other flagship sedans.

In fact...one could ask how viable it is for any manufacturer to sell a luxury sedan in the United States that is not German...considering the numbers

Sales or pricing has little to do w/ what segment they compete in.

It doesn't make sense to compare cars that are priced so far apart in the luxury market

Again, pricing is not the main criteria for whether a particular model belongs in a segment.

The LS 500 is still thousands less than an S Class and the original LS 400 was priced more alongside the E Class, but nonetheless, was compared to the S Class and not the E Class.

I suspect that the household income of an S slass buyer is significantly higher than the G90...and you don't know how many people would buy an S class if they could afford one

There's no need to suspect, but what does that matter?

I don't think a facelift is going to impact sales anymore than the 2014 Equus was impacted

The Equus didn't get much of a facelift and really weren't any significant exterior cosmetic changes.

The facelift for the G90 includes pretty substantial changes to the sheetmetal - new grill design and totally different headlight and taillight designs - which should inject more life to the exterior (stated from the start that the design of the G90 was too bland/safe).

Now, don't think that it'll mean a sharp rise in G90 sales but likely will see a bump where sales end up being closer to where it was when the G90 was first launched.

And as stated, when the next gen G90 is launched, wouldn't be surprised if the G90, once again, overtakes the LS in sales.

The watch front is far more complicated than the generic statement you just made

In regards to resale..Generally speaking if you have a Rolex you are in good shape
A rolex I bought 25 years ago( stainless datejust) is worth a bit more than I paid originally
A divers watch from that same period is probably worth twice what the person paid ..today

First off, of course the horology world is more complicated, but this is an auto forum, and specifically, a Genesis forum - so wasn't going to go into this in depth.

And if anyone is making broad, generic statements about watches, it's you.

Yeah, generally speaking, Rolex watches hold up in value due to its brand strength among the masses (Bose is the same way, but audiophiles wouldn't consider Bose to be a high-end, audiophile grade manufacturer), as well as due to Rolex's tight price-controls (including limiting discounting and set price increases), but that doesn't mean every Rolex watch model is desirable and within models, variations.

And in the horology world, the most important thing is the movement - in particular, whether a movement is made in-house or, at the very, least customizes a 3rd party movement such as the ETA 2892.A2.

There's a reason why Seiko is thought so highly in the horology world since they make their own movement from the humble quartz (Seiko made the first quartz wristwatch) to Spring Drives (which Seiko also pioneered) to automatic mechanicals to tourbillons.

Which is why high fashion watches - which despite being branded w/ names of high-end designers (such as Armani, Hugo Boss) are considered rubbish.

 

[YEH]

No..Didn't go over me head at all
I said what they do in Korea is not relevant to the United States..ie..what sells in Korea has nothing to with what sells in the United States
Perhaps my initial comment went over your head?

Actually, it did go over your head, as I stated that in response to Mark's statement that they should have skipped sedans altogether.

An automaker makes a decision to develop and manufacture models in light of its most important markets and not just one market (that may be changing some w/ the size of the China market).

The largest market for Hyundai's lux offerings (and now Genesis) was going to be its domestic market at the start - hence, starting w/ sedans.

The fact that you think the Korean market is not relevant to the point I made is erroneous; I wasn't making any comment correlating what sells in Korea vs. what sells in the States, and instead, the rationale behind the choices that Hyundai made to start w/ sedans (not to mention that basically, every mainstream lux automaker has started with sedans, much less typically still updating their sedan ahead of the CUV counterpart).

MB and BMW most certainly..Audi to a certain extent in the United States comparatively
Jaguar is not a factor... and they are liable to be sold yet again
Unlike Hyundai..etc..jaguar doesn't have a line of bread and butter cars to support their luxury cars in the United States

The only sure thing is the S Class.

The 7er has sold 2,346 YTD (and little more than 500 last month) compared to 1,226 for the G90.

Meanwhile the S Class has sold 6,100 YTD, so there's a greater disparity btwn S Class and 7er sales than 7er and G90 sales.

And that's despite being able to get $15k off the price of a 7er w/o even trying (and that was over a year ago).

The XJ has sold 713 YTD and the A8 a measly 454 (so it's not even comparatively and if anything, should be commenting on the lack of sales for the A8).

Sales of the A8 should rebound when the new model hits the lots, but even when brand-new, the A8 has never been a big seller.

And what does it matter whether Jag has a line of bread and butter cars?

That has no impact on Jag sales here or anywhere else and both Jaguar and Genesis need to stand on their own when it comes to sales (and one could say JLR has been funded by $$ from Tata Motor sales and don't see Tata selling JLR anytime soon).

The CT6 will also get the new 500HP v8 as well as Cadillac's super cruise system and upcoming parking pilot
To your point they will compete with technology from the Germans

And...? (aside from already being well aware of those things.)

Have you heard anything from Genesis where they stated that they are going to eschew V8s?

I haven't and I'm pretty much in top of what Genesis is doing (as well as Cadillac, for that matter).

Their upcoming car will be more upscale will likely have better finishes, more advanced technology and more customization that can be found in the under 100K competition I suspect

Tell me things I don't already know (highly doubt you know more about the ongoings at Cadillac).

As I said before
The AMG 43 has about the same sticker( and more features/sport) than the prior E550 ...and has about 400HP
I suspect those that bought the V8 E class wanted sport...so Mercedes gave them sport and more features at the same price

Yes - we all know that.

There's nothing to debate, much less talk about, until Genesis launches a performance variant and fails to offer a FI V8 in the G80.

I would imagine it would be more important for Genesis to make their V8 more HP competitive than looking at high out put variants of smaller engines that don't exist in production yet
Check out what other luxury V8 HP outputs are

I am speaking for US buyers
If buyers are cross shopping the Cadillac CT6 to the G90....which I think is highly likely...there is some engine and technology choices that make the G90 come up short

Only thing Genesis is missing (aside from hybrid variants - which are coming) when it comes to engines is a smaller displacement FI V8 and a more suitable FI 4-cylinder (one that would be suited for something like the G80).

Chances are good that Genesis working on the former and we already know that there is a new FI 2.5L 4 cyl engine capable of 300+ HP that will find its way into a new base trim for the G80.

Geeze, Lexus has been around for more than 2 decades longer than Genesis and they just got a TT V6 - which has yet to make its way into the GS (that is, if the GS sticks around).

 

[turnne]

B/c the G90 competes in the flagship segment; the G80 competes in the segment w/ the E Class.

Consumer Reports, JD Power and auto pubs like Car & Driver and Motor Trend have the G90 in the same segment as the S Class and other flagship sedans.




Sales or pricing has little to do w/ what segment they compete in.




Again, pricing is not the main criteria for whether a particular model belongs in a segment.

The LS 500 is still thousands less than an S Class and the original LS 400 was priced more alongside the E Class, but nonetheless, was compared to the S Class and not the E Class.




There's no need to suspect, but what does that matter?




The Equus didn't get much of a facelift and really weren't any significant exterior cosmetic changes.

The facelift for the G90 includes pretty substantial changes to the sheetmetal - new grill design and totally different headlight and taillight designs - which should inject more life to the exterior (stated from the start that the design of the G90 was too bland/safe).

Now, don't think that it'll mean a sharp rise in G90 sales but likely will see a bump where sales end up being closer to where it was when the G90 was first launched.

And as stated, when the next gen G90 is launched, wouldn't be surprised if the G90, once again, overtakes the LS in sales.




First off, of course the horology world is more complicated, but this is an auto forum, and specifically, a Genesis forum - so wasn't going to go into this in depth.

And if anyone is making broad, generic statements about watches, it's you.

Yeah, generally speaking, Rolex watches hold up in value due to its brand strength among the masses (Bose is the same way, but audiophiles wouldn't consider Bose to be a high-end, audiophile grade manufacturer), as well as due to Rolex's tight price-controls (including limiting discounting and set price increases), but that doesn't mean every Rolex watch model is desirable and within models, variations.

And in the horology world, the most important thing is the movement - in particular, whether a movement is made in-house or, at the very, least customizes a 3rd party movement such as the ETA 2892.A2.

There's a reason why Seiko is thought so highly in the horology world since they make their own movement from the humble quartz (Seiko made the first quartz wristwatch) to Spring Drives (which Seiko also pioneered) to automatic mechanicals to tourbillons.

Which is why high fashion watches - which despite being branded w/ names of high-end designers (such as Armani, Hugo Boss) are considered rubbish.

I am not even going to bother to unpack all that

If you the think the same market/buyer is looking at a G90 and an S class you are kidding yourself

Warren

 

[turnne]

Actually, it did go over your head, as I stated that in response to Mark's statement that they should have skipped sedans altogether.

An automaker makes a decision to develop and manufacture models in light of its most important markets and not just one market (that may be changing some w/ the size of the China market).

The largest market for Hyundai's lux offerings (and now Genesis) was going to be its domestic market at the start - hence, starting w/ sedans.

The fact that you think the Korean market is not relevant to the point I made is erroneous; I wasn't making any comment correlating what sells in Korea vs. what sells in the States, and instead, the rationale behind the choices that Hyundai made to start w/ sedans (not to mention that basically, every mainstream lux automaker has started with sedans, much less typically still updating their sedan ahead of the CUV counterpart).




The only sure thing is the S Class.

The 7er has sold 2,346 YTD (and little more than 500 last month) compared to 1,226 for the G90.

Meanwhile the S Class has sold 6,100 YTD, so there's a greater disparity btwn S Class and 7er sales than 7er and G90 sales.

And that's despite being able to get $15k off the price of a 7er w/o even trying (and that was over a year ago).

The XJ has sold 713 YTD and the A8 a measly 454 (so it's not even comparatively and if anything, should be commenting on the lack of sales for the A8).

Sales of the A8 should rebound when the new model hits the lots, but even when brand-new, the A8 has never been a big seller.

And what does it matter whether Jag has a line of bread and butter cars?

That has no impact on Jag sales here or anywhere else and both Jaguar and Genesis need to stand on their own when it comes to sales (and one could say JLR has been funded by $$ from Tata Motor sales and don't see Tata selling JLR anytime soon).




And...? (aside from already being well aware of those things.)

Have you heard anything from Genesis where they stated that they are going to eschew V8s?

I haven't and I'm pretty much in top of what Genesis is doing (as well as Cadillac, for that matter).




Tell me things I don't already know (highly doubt you know more about the ongoings at Cadillac).





Yes - we all know that.

There's nothing to debate, much less talk about, until Genesis launches a performance variant and fails to offer a FI V8 in the G80.




Only thing Genesis is missing (aside from hybrid variants - which are coming) when it comes to engines is a smaller displacement FI V8 and a more suitable FI 4-cylinder (one that would be suited for something like the G80).

Chances are good that Genesis working on the former and we already know that there is a new FI 2.5L 4 cyl engine capable of 300+ HP that will find its way into a new base trim for the G80.

Geeze, Lexus has been around for more than 2 decades longer than Genesis and they just got a TT V6 - which has yet to make its way into the GS (that is, if the GS sticks around).

No..actually my point was
What they sell in Korea has absolutely nothing to do with what is desired and actually purchased in the United States...nothing
and again...we have a big disparity on what cars are in the same class

Technology, finish, finish and customization are the biggest determinants when it comes to comparing automobiles as apples and apples

I will cite one example that you use that doesn't make sense
You said you could get $15K off a 7 last year without really trying...and that was the old body style?

And to think you can get more off a G90 than that and its a less expensive car....
And has been cited early in this thread sales are dropping..in fact it looks like they sold more Hyundai Genesis cars before they did the rebadge to the G80...?

and for the Geeze Lexus comment

Look how much they invested in their dealerships and experience factor to compete in the luxury market....
How many cars did they sell per year when they just had two vehicles to offer?...
Do you think you can walk in Lexus dealer ship and buy a LS500 for the huge discounts they are offering on G90's?
VERY doubtfull

Warren

 

[Windchaser]

Yet there are a few posters on this forum who have switched from S classes to the G90 and have stated they think the G90 is overall a better car.

 

[turnne]

Yet there are a few posters on this forum who have switched from S classes to the G90 and have stated they think the G90 is overall a better car.

I have not seen that....do you have to a link to some who went from a new S class to a new G90?

I used to own an older S class...and now own an Equus

A good friend recently traded in his 2011 Lexus LS for a 2015 Mercedes S 550.....which I drove recently

I test drove a G90 back to back with a Cadillac CT6 recently, as well

Neither the G90 nor the Cadillac are the equivalents of the S class

if money is an issue, they are both better values though...and they are both going to be very very good values as 3 year old lease returns..

As you can see by the thread about G90 "deals"..the discounting is heavy for the actual transactions reported


Warren

 

[Windchaser]

I have not seen that....do you have to a link to some who went from a new S class to a new G90?

I used to own an older S class...and now own an Equus

A good friend recently traded in his 2011 Lexus LS for a 2015 Mercedes S 550.....which I drove recently

I test drove a G90 back to back with a Cadillac CT6 recently, as well

Neither the G90 nor the Cadillac are the equivalents of the S class

if money is an issue, they are both better values though...and they are both going to be very very good values as 3 year old lease returns..

As you can see by the thread about G90 "deals"..the discounting is heavy for the actual transactions reported


Warren

Here is one individual. I am not sure about the other thread that I recently saw.

 

[turnne]

Here is one individual. I am not sure about the other thread that I recently saw.

as I said
I would like to see someone who came from a new S class..or at least the latest iteration

I drove my friends 2015 S class and I thought it was a more impressive car than the brand new G90 I test drove
Even his 2015 does not have some of the advancements that Mercedes has made in the 2018 refreshed S slass

Warren

 

[YEH]

as I said
I would like to see someone who came from a new S class..or at least the latest iteration

I drove my friends 2015 S class and I thought it was a more impressive car than the brand new G90 I test drove
Even his 2015 does not have some of the advancements that Mercedes has made in the 2018 refreshed S slass

Warren

Like this poster?

picked up my G90 5.0 ultimate about 3 weeks ago. I came off of a Mercedes S550; in fact this makes the first time that I have not owned a Mercedes in 50 years. I got tired of the little problems and high prices for parts. Last good MB that I owned was a 1991 560 SEL but I kept coming back for more. So far I love the Genesis; every thing about it is tremendous!!
The reviews are a little tainted in my estimation. This car was never intended to be a sports sedan but sure fills the bill as a luxury cruiser.

i have owned both a 221 and a 222 S class. I prefer the G90 over both of them. The 221 started to develop many problems as it aged ; rear air conditioner , front control arms suspension, front struts and many more small problems, The 222 was the first model year and had a myriad of electronic problems that continued through the warranty period. the G90 in my opinion has a better ride quality and sound isolation than the S class. The paint finish does top the S class since it does not have as much orange peel as the MB's. The interior in the Genesis is better in some aspects and lagging in others ; I particularly do not care for the material used on the bottom of the door panels but the back seat in the G90 knocks the socks off of the S class that appears to be plain in comparison.
I will withhold judgement completely since I have only owned the car for a few months but so far so good. A final comment; a similarly equipped S class would be in the $115,000 price range ( a mere $40,000 + difference)