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Suspension Issue - A new take

Data for The 2010 year as well as the 2009 year are both selectable at the web site and they show the same date for the V6 for both years under the suspension specifications. I have printed both of them out and am looking at them right now. As you saying that they will change the data listed on their official web site of the service manual once they stick unsuspecting buyers with the 2009 cars. I would fell that a reputable company which I am sure Hyundai is would not do an underhanded thing like that. That would be a form of fraud and might even have potential for legal ramifications.

It is one thing for them to believe that the car is acceptable and not make a change an another to make a change and attempt to hide it from the public.
 
As you saying that they will change the data listed on their official web site of the service manual once they stick unsuspecting buyers with the 2009 cars. I would fell that a reputable company which I am sure Hyundai is would not do an underhanded thing like that. That would be a form of fraud and might even have potential for legal ramifications.

It is one thing for them to believe that the car is acceptable and not make a change an another to make a change and attempt to hide it from the public.
No, I am not saying that. Such a devious plot would not work anyway because I don't think very many potential buyers are going to be looking the HMA Service website.

What I am saying is that it is best not to jump to any conclusions about the 2010 suspension based on the information you have seen at the HMA service site. I am absolutely convinced that Hyundai has made some changes (although not major) to the 2010 suspension in the form of modified spring.shock rates, and new bushings. These changes will not fundamentally change the frim ride (if you want a Lincoln Continental ride you will still be unhappy), but I certainly expect that it will improve the ride over rough roads.

So what I am saying is that instead of trying to figure out what changes were made based on part numbers (a dubious exercise IMO), let's just wait a month or two until the 2010 Genesis sedan is actually available.
 
I really don't have any choice and that is part of the problem. I am glad you are convinced ( Personally I see a lack of real evidence) however lets assure your faith is well placed. It will be a shock if the dealership offers a solution or that I get a communication from Hyundai telling me "Hey have we got a fix for you!" I am only expecting more of the same "Performs as designed" :(

By the way I would take a mushy Lincoln ride compared to this riding on rims hard. If I ever ran and got spike stripped I am not sure i would know the difference. :D
 
I really don't have any choice and that is part of the problem. I am glad you are convinced ( Personally I see a lack of real evidence) however lets assure your faith is well placed. It will be a shock if the dealership offers a solution or that I get a communication from Hyundai telling me "Hey have we got a fix for you!" I am only expecting more of the same "Performs as designed" :(

By the way I would take a mushy Lincoln ride compared to this riding on rims hard. If I ever ran and got spike stripped I am not sure i would know the difference. :D
Lets not confuse two issues:

1. There are suspension changes to the 2010 Genesis Sedan (revised spring/shock rates and new bushings).

2. Just because there are suspension changes to the 2010, does not automatically make the 2009 defective to the point where Hyundai is required to retrofit the parts with 2010 spring/shocks/bushings.

All I know for certain is that are changes to the 2010 suspension. I have no idea whether Hyundai will offer any relief to current 2009 owners (for free under warranty, at a reduced charge, or at full price).

These are two completely separate issues, and for some reason it seems to me that you suggesting that unless Hyundai fixes your 2009 suspension that no changes have been made to the 2010 suspension.

Personally, I have lobbied hard with Hyundai and on this forum that the ride is not acceptable on rough roads and it is my sincere hope that Hyundai offers some kind of relief for 2009 owners for free or at a significantly reduced price.
 
I find it strange that the suspension part numbers are the same for the 2010's. I know someone posted that Hyundai might not change the part numbers, but, I think they would have to. What if someone with a nice riding 2010 ordered needed new parts, there would be no way of knowing if the parts received were the new ones or the old ones. It would really suck to buy a 2010 and end up having it be made into a rough riding 2009. I do not think any manufacturer would keep the same part number for different/updated parts. I just had a recall on my 2009 volvo S80 for a cooling fan. It looks identical, but has a different part number. While I hope they change the suspension at some point in 2010, it does appear that, at least initially, the 2010's wil have the same suspension as the 2009's.
 
I find it strange that the suspension part numbers are the same for the 2010's. I know someone posted that Hyundai might not change the part numbers, but, I think they would have to. What if someone with a nice riding 2010 ordered needed new parts, there would be no way of knowing if the parts received were the new ones or the old ones. It would really suck to buy a 2010 and end up having it be made into a rough riding 2009. I do not think any manufacturer would keep the same part number for different/updated parts. I just had a recall on my 2009 volvo S80 for a cooling fan. It looks identical, but has a different part number. While I hope they change the suspension at some point in 2010, it does appear that, at least initially, the 2010's wil have the same suspension as the 2009's.
We don't know for certain what the part numbers are or what that means. For example, there are two different springs listed (both listed for the V6) with no explanation for why they are different and what the difference is.

You seem to be very concerned to try and prove that no suspension tuning has been done for the 2010, in spite of direct claims by Hyundai employees on the Think Tank site. If you really want the truth, why not wait until the 2010 hits the dealer lots and we may know more about it then (or reasonably soon after initial launch date of the 2010)? Why the rush to judgment?
 
Mark 888

I for one am not the least bit interested in proving there are no changes to the 2010 I hope there are, I just can't find any evidence of it. I for one have never said or implied that unless Hyundai fixes my 2009 that there are no changes to the 2010, can't understand why you have jumped to that conclusion. I just got thru posting that i think Hyundai is too reputable a firm to try and cover up a change.

This is not a contest between people, it is just that many find the ride unacceptable and you say they are changing it in 2010 I say that's great and hope they will fix the cars that those own that find the ride bad. You might read the thread accompanying this subject particularly the Fatal Flaw section.

I have said the dealer doesn't know anything about this problem or at least mine doesn't.

Regarding the cost to fix the problem, personally I think the cost of not fixing it or offering some sort of accommodation is higher. I would think that folks with 2009 models wight suffer having a hard time selling them at new car time. I would also believe that Hyundai would be smart enough to know this could mushroom into a bigger problem than it is now.

I for one, am not rushing to any judgments that they will not: fix the problem, admit it is a problem or offer to fix the problem ( or whatever you want to call it) My only judgment is that nothing has yet been forthcoming and the only data available is the 2009 and 2010 service site which does nothing to dispel the concerns. So I say don't accuse us of having made a judgment, that they will ignore us 2009 owners that find the ride unacceptable, until we do.

I read all these same sites that are available to you. None of us have some insider info.

I do find the comments regarding over torquing of the bushings interesting. Some have claimed success going that rout to remedy their problem.

Finally I feel that ImInPA is also just posting as I am to illustrate our prespectives to this situation and try and help one another cope with what is, at least for some of us a very unpleasant situtation. So please lets keep it nice.
 
Details from the above link:

Attached to the 2010 Genesis’ rigid structure is revised suspension and steering tuning to keep the Genesis even flatter through turns and more compliant over bumps. Genesis features a suspension design that is among the most sophisticated and refined anywhere, at any price. The front five-link suspension features upper and lower arms linking the front wheels to the chassis. This artfully articulated arrangement creates a virtual king pin axis that dramatically reduces unwanted kickback through the steering wheel as well as improving responsiveness. The five-link independent rear suspension is equally sophisticated, enabling precise suspension geometry for a premium ride and engaging handling prowess. The capabilities of the advanced front and rear-suspension are maximized through Amplitude Selective Dampers (ASD) allowing tuning flexibility at smaller damper displacements. The ASD suspension provides:

  • Improved ride comfort with more body / wheel control
  • Increased driving comfort without compromised handling
  • Optimized road surface contact
  • Technology used in Lexus, BMW and Mercedes-Benz models
 
Re: Suspension Issue - A new possibility

I just got off the phone with Ted at ARKperformance that manufacture the only coil over system I have found for the Genesis Sedan. It features a 18 step adjustable shock and lower spring rates than the factory springs 9 according to Ted.) It also allows the lovering of the car about an inch to reduce the "Dead Cat space" and make the car have less drag, reaction to cross winds and improved looks. It does require a realignment of the car after installation. I am now looking for an alignment suspension shop to get a quote for install. http://www.arkspeedracing.com/10_ON_Hyundai_Genesis_Sedan_ARK_DT_P_Coilover_p/cd0704-0910.htm
 
Details from the above link:

Attached to the 2010 Genesis’ rigid structure is revised suspension and steering tuning to keep the Genesis even flatter through turns and more compliant over bumps. Genesis features a suspension design that is among the most sophisticated and refined anywhere, at any price. The front five-link suspension features upper and lower arms linking the front wheels to the chassis. This artfully articulated arrangement creates a virtual king pin axis that dramatically reduces unwanted kickback through the steering wheel as well as improving responsiveness. The five-link independent rear suspension is equally sophisticated, enabling precise suspension geometry for a premium ride and engaging handling prowess. The capabilities of the advanced front and rear-suspension are maximized through Amplitude Selective Dampers (ASD) allowing tuning flexibility at smaller damper displacements. The ASD suspension provides:

  • Improved ride comfort with more body / wheel control
  • Increased driving comfort without compromised handling
  • Optimized road surface contact
  • Technology used in Lexus, BMW and Mercedes-Benz models

Ok fine... I'll take the bait.........

Where in this news release does it say

"Attached to the 2010 Genesis’ rigid structure is revised suspension and steering tuning to keep the Genesis even flatter through turns and more compliant over bumps."
 
Ok fine... I'll take the bait.........

Where in this news release does it say

"Attached to the 2010 Genesis’ rigid structure is revised suspension and steering tuning to keep the Genesis even flatter through turns and more compliant over bumps."
Interesting. I was originally doubtful that Hyundai would admit that the 2010 suspension had changed while they still had 2009 vehicles for sale, and it is obvious that HMA changed the website today. I simply copied and pasted the quote right out of the link (which is now different than what it was yesterday).

Thomaspf noticed the same thing yesterday at the quoted website (gone today) "Revised suspension and steering."
 
kaberle,

I can back up Mark on this. It did say the suspension (and steering) was changed for 2010. Look at post #1 (Mark) and #5 (me) in this thread: http://www.genesisowners.com/hyundai-genesis-forum/showthread.php?t=3311

I copied and pasted that directly from the Hyundai site prior to them changing it and saw just what Mark did. I personally don't think they changed it because they were scared it would hurt 2009 sales (the 2010s are already on their way and due to arrive within the next 30 days). I think they changed it because they don't want too many '09 owners to catch wind of this and ask for the new parts/changes at no charge.
 
Car makers routinely make changes and "improvements" - HMA is the first one I've personally experienced that are so sneaky about it. Makes me question how successful they can really be in the luxury market - owners won't put up with it.

I recall in '07 when the newly designed LS came out there were concerns over wind noise - similar circumstances to this; not all owners experienced or noticed it - those who did were very displeased. Lexus eventually developed a fix which involved replacing all of the glass - a fix that pleasantly surprised many. I'm trying very hard to remain hopeful that Hyundai will step up in a similar manner, but things like this sure don't make it easy.

Either they changed their mind about the revisions, or they're purposely hiding the changes to push the inferiorly designed/tuned 09's off the lots - a deceptive move, at best.
 
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Either they changed their mind about the revisions, or they're purposely hiding the changes to push the inferiorly designed/tuned 09's off the lots - a deceptive move, at best.
Obviously, they did not change their minds about whether to implement the suspension revisions since yesterday. The lead time for that sort of decision is quite long. With a suspension change, new crash testing and EPA mileage testing probably had to be done, not to mention the amount of time from manufacturing, to import in US, to arrival at the dealer.

I think someone at HMA realized that they still have a lot of 2009's to sell, and I am sure the dealers on this forum were livid and have been screaming at HMA all day. To be honest, I was very surprised that HMA ever admitted the change in the first place.
 
Re the new crash testing. I was the "Technical Director Air Cushion restraints' for Allied the worlds largest manufacturer of "Seat belts' and at the time Air Bags. I can say with confidence that changes of the type we have been discussing would not require recertification or crash testing of the vehicle.

Second the release does have the wording changed coincidentally with lots of discussion here and other Genesis forums after the release. Hard to think of any reason to change it other that for many of the reasons we have been discussing.

Third. The vehicle height is established by the set extension of the Damper shock and the ability of the spring to support the load at that height. In other words the spring has to push the car up th the max stroke of the shock stop. This may but is not usually a elastic shock. Coil over kits usually have this set at less of a extension so as to lower the car. The actual spring itself can be a lower rate (softer) from that point on or higher to eliminate bottoming. Since there is only so much travel available from upper limit to bottoming out, the rate can only vary so much. It must have sufficient initial load at the installed height to hold the car to the stop to achieve the set height. From that point on the rate for the remaining compression stroke left must be at least limited by that stroke and the minimum being the initial load to a final load after the stroke is completed. It is likely possible that this change in load for the remaining stroke could be less than what we currently have.

The sway can be effected by the torsion rate of the anti-sway bar or the torsion bar or whatever you want to call it. It would have some impact on one side jolts but it is a trade off on tilt in curves vs transfer of load jolt to the other side.

So the main / real job of how hard our ride feels to small and or repeated small "jolts" is mainly left to the shock to establish the speed with which the suspension is allowed to move.

Therefor, one main way our ride can be made to feel easier / softer, etc. when it hits small changes in level by making it allow greater excursions per pound / inch /second that is led to a major extent by the shock.

IMO, All our cars need is different / softer dampers be they SACKs or whatever, to achieve a ride improved sufficiently to satisfy many of us..

There are other shocks that can be fitted to the rear of our cars and indeed different shock/damper assemblies for the front.

Should Hyundai make these for 2010 then we can get them if was are so inclined, With Hyundai hiding behind "Many of our customers are happy with the ride" my personal hopes are low. If Hyundai does not make new ones we can buy others if we want. I imagine we will ultimately find an acceptable new shock and in my case first for the rear and if that does not fix it enough then also for the front.

We can also sell our cars without fear as Hyundai says "many of our customers are happy with the ride" Personally I would try a 2010 and if the ride is great, see if Hyundai would give me a "Customer Loyalty" rate for the new car. I like the car otherwise and for the price I like it a lot it.

As I said before, enough said so I will try and not offer more un solicited comment, hope I can stick to my thought.. Please this is not an attack on anyone, any thought, any position. It is just to try and provide useful info from a Mechanical engineer that ran the Mechanical engineer department of the Bendix Research Labs. and we had a number of programs related to suspension. By the way this post is also not meant to boast, be self aggrandizing or talk down to anyone. Just trying to add some perspective and help while I try and cope with a very disappointing situation. I have to drive it every day as it is my only car so I have to try and do something to make it better as it is so tough to get in it and take the drive. Which is why I changed wheels, tires, etc. as waiting for the tooth fairy just doesn't do it for me. Thanks for reading this it took time to prepare and write it. :grouphug:
 
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Re the new crash testing. I was the "Technical Director Air Cushion restraints' for Allied the worlds largest manufacturer of "Seat belts' and at the time Air Bags. I can say with confidence that changes of the type we have been discussing would not require recertification or crash testing of the vehicle...

Should Hyundai make these for 2010 then we can get them if was are so inclined, With Hyundai hiding behind "Many of our customers are happy with the ride" my personal hopes are low. If Hyundai does not make new ones we can buy others if we want. I imagine we will ultimately find an acceptable new shock and in my case first for the rear and if that does not fix it enough then also for the front.

We can also sell our cars without fear as Hyundai says "many of our customers are happy with the ride" Personally I would try a 2010 and if the ride is great, see if Hyundai would give me a "Customer Loyalty" rate for the new car. I like the car otherwise and for the price I like it a lot it.

As I said before, enough said so I will try and not offer more un solicited comment, hope I can stick to my thought.. Please this is not an attack on anyone, any thought, any position. It is just to try and provide useful info from a Mechanical engineer that ran the Mechanical engineer department of the Bendix Research Lavatories and we had a number of programs related to suspension. By the way this post is also not meant to boast, be self aggrandizing or talk down to anyone. Just trying to add some perspective and help while I try and cope with a very disappointing situation. I have to drive it every day as it is my only car so I have to try and do something to make it better as it is so tough to get in it and take the drive. Which is why I changed wheels, tires, etc. as waiting for the tooth fairy just doesn't do it for me. Thanks for reading this it took time to prepare and write it.
If the weight of the car changes, are you absolutely sure that a new crash test and EPA mileage test is not required? Even if the weight did not change, I would think that the crash test results could be affected if the springs and shocks are changed, although I could see how a seatbelt test would not be affected. Some of these rules may be arbitrarily defined by the testing agencies, even if it seems far-fetched that the results may be different. At any rate, there may be enough grey area that HMA lawyers are concerned.

With regard to a resolution for 2009 owners, I personally think that we should wait until the 2010 hits the dealer lots before we start contacting HMA and complaining about this. They "must" be in denial mode right now in order to get rid of the 2009 vehicles, and if you force them to lie about it now, they may want to continue the lie later to maintain consistency, so those who are raising a bing stink right now are not doing us any good IMO.
 
As I believe I said "The changes of the type being discussed" would not require recertification A close reading HTS rule 208 / 9 will make this evident. I said nothing about EPA mileage testing Although a single HotLA55 test bag would prove that out. It should be eviden that the weight changes are very very minor as are the suspension collaspe of structure load point.

I did not recommend anywhere to contact HMA about any problem, as a matter of fact from what I read they don't seem to have a consistent response and even change previously released info, as you have reported. IMO opinion if folks want to or not want to contact them is a matter of free will and the effect of that cannot be determined but only opinions can be presented. As you have somewhat proudly proclaimed you have had early contact with them and been a Champion of getting the problem solved when others supposedly derided you etc. So allowing other do do similar thing do not in the opinion of this poster seem improper. However you are, like the rest of the community are entitled to do as they see fir, It so far still being a country that allows such individual freedom.

I do solicit other comments that may be more related to the technical content of the suspension discussion as it may serve to ad illumination to the subject as compared to taking to task over half statements. As I tried to state, evidently not with total coverage success, the post was not to stir up but add technical content, from someone that has been their, My work on fuel injection for autos, 2 Group, sequential port, and direct injection of gasoline plus as the originator of Electric unit diesel injector I have personally been to An Arbor Mich to the EPA labs and participated in emission testing for a variety of automobile both foreign and domestic. From a Crash standpoint I have directed the HYGE sled and barrier testing of well into the hundreds of tests,, BOTH Air cushion and seat belts both of a wide variety of types. I again provide this background so other readers may have reference as t the validity of the post. This is all Behind me and I am no longer running or acting as a consultant in these fields, just another owner, even if I am old, I am not senile. Out great moderator loves , and rightly so a remark he attributes to Mr. Edison that in effect says unless you are un happy with a situation you will not try and fix it. I have a favorite that says: "The first step is to learn what it is you don't know, then you can start to lean what it is you don't know but in the mean time, beware that you tend to think you are right even without any basis for thinking so." :grouphug:
 
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