2015 Genesis compares to …

[Mark_888]

So I guess the A8 isn't luxury to you. You're taking that K900 commercial way too literally if you don't think it is advertising the K900 as a luxury sedan (the gist isn't that the K900 isn't a luxury sedan, but that it is one despite all the old notions about tradition, etc.).

I never said that Kia or Hyundai are not marketing their cars as luxury sedans. Obviously they are. But as the Kia commercial says, it is up to the customer to decide what the definition of luxury is (hopefully absent archaic notions of snob appeal and tradition). It is the "new luxury."

Also what I said was that it is very dubious to suggest that Hyundai or Kia are only targeting a very narrow range of cars that are cross-shopped by consumers, as was suggested earlier in this thread. For example there was an argument as to whether the Genesis is targeted against BMW 5 vs BMW 7. My contention is that the range of cars cross-shopped by Hyundai Genesis buyers is much larger than supposed, for a variety of reasons that have already been discussed.

 

[YEH]

I never said that Kia or Hyundai are not marketing their cars as luxury sedans. Obviously they are. But as the Kia commercial says, it is up to the customer to decide what the definition of luxury is (hopefully absent archaic notions of snob appeal and tradition). It is the "new luxury."

And how do you think the customer ends up deciding that?

By looking at the features of the auto (including RWD vs. FWD and engine lineup) and by being influenced by advertisement and what all the auto publications say (this isn't done in a vacuum).

And the point is that both the Genesis and Equus sedans are luxury.

No matter that someone may shop the Avalon w/ the Genesis - that does not turn the Avalon into a luxury sedan (it remains an upscale sedan along w/ the Azera).

Just as there have been those who moved from an ES to a loaded Sonata; that doesn't mean that the Sonata is now a FWD luxury sedan.

Also what I said was that it is very dubious to suggest that Hyundai or Kia are only targeting a very narrow range of cars that are cross-shopped by consumers, as was suggested earlier in this thread. For example there was an argument as to whether the Genesis is targeted against BMW 5 vs BMW 7. My contention is that the range of cars cross-shopped by Hyundai Genesis buyers is much larger than supposed, for a variety of reasons that have already been discussed.

Again - what buyers may contemplate in their buying decision and what the segment that the various models compete are 2 entirely different things.

There have been buyers who have contemplated everything from a minivan to a large CUV to a large sedan - that doesn't mean that the sedan is now equivalent to a minivan just b/c they were both being considered.

And again, the Genesis was never targeted against the 7 Series, but there may be those out there who looked at both and opted for the Genesis b/c they could have similar passenger room for a lot less coin.

There have been those who have moved from a 5 Series to a loaded Optima - that doesn't mean that the Optima is now a competitor to the 5 Series.

The refreshed SXL trim of the Optima loaded up will retail close to $38k.

Within the Kia line-up for around the same price or a bit more - one can contemplate getting the Cadenza (starts at $35k), or a loaded Sorento SXL.

That doesn't mean that Optima isn't a mainsteam, midsize sedan and the Cadenza an upscale sedan.

Let's say the pricing of the V6 K900 starts around $47k.

Get a dealer demo and probably would be able to get it in the low-$40k - that doesn't make the K900 a segment competitor to a loaded Optima SXL, much less a loaded Cadenza.

Include Hyundai in the picture and while one can certainly cross-shop a loaded SXL and the base Genesis on price - that has no bearing on the segments in which they compete.

And b/c of the clamor for Kia to put the GT Concept into production, we'll probably see a RWD luxury sedan from Kia slotting under the K900 (as well as the Genesis).

So figure a starting MSRP of $33-34k - that won't make the GT an equivalent to the Optima.

 

[Mark_888]

Again - what buyers may contemplate in their buying decision and what the segment that the various models compete are 2 entirely different things.

I don't know about everyone else, but when I am shopping for a car, I don't really care what a marketing person "thinks" is the segment it competes in. What matters to me is what the car was designed and built as (not marketed as), versus what other cars I am looking at. This whole thread is a complete waste of time, and is founded on erroneous assumptions about what actually matters. So you can respond an continue on with the BS, but I have already posted more than I should have in this thread.

 

[calbear88]

I don't know about everyone else, but when I am shopping for a car, I don't really care what a marketing person "thinks" is the segment it competes in. What matters to me is what the car was designed and built as (not marketed as), versus what other cars I am looking at. This whole thread is a complete waste of time, and is founded on erroneous assumptions about what actually matters. So you can respond an continue on with the BS, but I have already posted more than I should have in this thread.

I think it is fair to say that there is a difference of opinion and continuing the discussion will not change anyone's mind.

 

[akuma]

I think it is fair to say that there is a difference of opinion and continuing the discussion will not change anyone's mind.

does anyone remember this video when the first Genesis came out?

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yjia6K0Rnqg"]Features, Genesis, Hyundai 2009. - YouTube[/ame]

according to John Krafcik (at around 4:05), he said that the Genesis had a primary competitive set that it competed against in the marketplace as well as a separate image target set that they benchmarked the features and functionality of the Genesis against. the competitive set being the Chrysler 300C, the ES 350, the last generation CTS and the Pontiac G8; the image target set being the Lexus GS, Infiniti M, BMW 5-series and Mercedes E class. so at this point it's not really fair to say that the Genesis is blowing away the Lexus GS and the Audi A6 (or even the Infiniti M/Q70) in sales considering that the above two models have a much more limited customer base. when the Genesis sales are compared to the 300C, ES or even the previous CTS, it's definitely a laggard.

its kind of funny how Genesis owners/fans may be offended by the Genesis being compared to a Chrysler 300 or Lexus ES or even a Pontiac G8(Chevy SS), but it's not any different than what an owner of one of the German makes might feel by having their car being mentioned in the same sentence as the Genesis.

now with the current generation, there supposedly isn't much difference between the Genesis than the Germans besides the luxury badge and a significantly smaller price differential compared to the last generation; an A6 can be had for only $42k albeit FWD and 4 cylinder. the Genesis is also considerably heavier so it won't be challenging the performance leaders or the mpg leaders anytime soon or ever during this model cycle. it is certainly possible that the current Genesis could sell in even lower numbers than the previous generation if the marketing isn't up to par as the buyers of the original primary competitive set of the last generation Genesis might be alienated by the considerably higher transaction price of the new model. they will certainly need more conquest sales in a much more limited and competitive market and that will take marketing/word of mouth which at the moment appears to be quite favorable.

 

[Alwaysforward]

I think it is fair to say that there is a difference of opinion and continuing the discussion will not change anyone's mind.

I agree.

 

[YEH]

I think it is fair to say that there is a difference of opinion and continuing the discussion will not change anyone's mind.

Not really a diff. in opinions as opposed to Mark arguing something completely diff.

A prospective buyer, of course, may be contemplating a wide spectrum of vehicles - maybe even vehicles quite diff. in body-styles, much less price-range.

For instance, someone solely looking at Toyota/Lexus products may be looking at everything from a loaded Camry to the Avalon, ES, RX, IS and maybe even the GS (for some stretching the budget/good lease deal; for others, can easily spend the $$ but don't necessarily need to spend that much).

That doesn't mean that they all compete against each other when it comes to actual segments.

Same thing for a Kia buyer - they can be looking at a loaded Optima SX/SXL a Sorento SX/SXL and the Cadenza.

But there's a reason why Kia will likely greenlight the GT Concept - despite being in that price-range since it will slot into a diff. segment.

Add Hyundai (much less all the other auto brands) to the mix and then you have a loaded Sonata, Azera, Santa Fe and Genesis to contemplate over as well.

And then Hyundai will be adding the AG sedan (right now for the Korean market) and RK sedan.

Why is Hyundai adding 2 new sedans? B/c they slot into diff. segments (and it's not like Hyundai is doing things on the willy-nilly - these are established segments).

Same reason why the Genesis coupe was compared some to the Pony cars w/ the G37 coupe being the other and not FWD coupes like Accord and Altima.

Are there some buyers out there who contemplated the Accord and Altima coupes along w/ the GC? Sure, but that doesn't make the GC a segment competitor.

And despite sharing the Genesis name - the coupe was never held in the same light (much less pricepoint) as the sedan and that's b/c the GC was never the 2-door equivalent of the sedan (which is why the new coupe will now be properly paired w/ the RK sedan).

 

[Mark_888]

Not really a diff. in opinions as opposed to Mark arguing something completely diff.

A prospective buyer, of course, may be contemplating a wide spectrum of vehicles - maybe even vehicles quite diff. in body-styles, much less price-range.

For instance, someone solely looking at Toyota/Lexus products may be looking at everything from a loaded Camry to the Avalon, ES, RX, IS and maybe even the GS (for some stretching the budget/good lease deal; for others, can easily spend the $$ but don't necessarily need to spend that much).

That doesn't mean that they all compete against each other when it comes to actual segments.

Same thing for a Kia buyer - they can be looking at a loaded Optima SX/SXL a Sorento SX/SXL and the Cadenza.

But there's a reason why Kia will likely greenlight the GT Concept - despite being in that price-range since it will slot into a diff. segment.

Add Hyundai (much less all the other auto brands) to the mix and then you have a loaded Sonata, Azera, Santa Fe and Genesis to contemplate over as well.

And then Hyundai will be adding the AG sedan (right now for the Korean market) and RK sedan.

Why is Hyundai adding 2 new sedans? B/c they slot into diff. segments (and it's not like Hyundai is doing things on the willy-nilly - these are established segments).

Same reason why the Genesis coupe was compared some to the Pony cars w/ the G37 coupe being the other and not FWD coupes like Accord and Altima.

Are there some buyers out there who contemplated the Accord and Altima coupes along w/ the GC? Sure, but that doesn't make the GC a segment competitor.

And despite sharing the Genesis name - the coupe was never held in the same light (much less pricepoint) as the sedan and that's b/c the GC was never the 2-door equivalent of the sedan (which is why the new coupe will now be properly paired w/ the RK sedan).

The video posted above with John Krafcik proves you are wrong. The video specially mentions the Genesis primary "competitive set" as the Chrysler 300C, Lexus ES 350 (a FWD car), Pontiac G8, Cadillac CTS. Also, toward the end of the video Krafcik lists even more FWD cars that the Base Trim Genesis competes with such as Audi A4, Toyota Avalon, Honda Accord EX-L V6. and a couple of others.

The video proves categorically, beyond any reasonable doubt, that the Genesis competes against a much larger number of vehicles in the market place than was claimed by you earlier in this thread, and that engineering targets (Infiniti M, Lexus GS, BMW 5, MB E) are different than the actual competitive targets when it comes time for buyers to shop. As far as segments (semi-arbitrary fictions created by marketing people), some people only shop with a defined segments (depending on who defines them) and some people shop outside. For the Genesis, I think a large percentage shop outside because of the large price difference between Genesis and comparable cars (taking into account luxury, features, performance, size, etc). Obviously, Krafcik knows that price is the biggest competitive fact in determining the competition.

I will have to grant you one compliment in that it does take a lot of balls to come back here after seeing the Krafcik video repudiate your comments in this thread, and then pretend like nothing happened.

 

[dareaction]

The video posted above with John Krafcik proves you are wrong. The video specially mentions the Genesis primary "competitive set" as the Chrysler 300C, Lexus ES 350 (a FWD car), Pontiac G8, Cadillac CTS. Also, toward the end of the video Krafcik lists even more FWD cars that the Base Trim Genesis competes with such as Audi A4, Toyota Avalon, Honda Accord EX-L V6. and a couple of others.

The video proves categorically, beyond any reasonable doubt, that the Genesis competes against a much larger number of vehicles in the market place than was claimed by you earlier in this thread, and that engineering targets (Infiniti M, Lexus GS, BMW 5, MB E) are different than the actual competitive targets when it comes time for buyers to shop. As far as segments (semi-arbitrary fictions created by marketing people), some people only shop with a defined segments (depending on who defines them) and some people shop outside. For the Genesis, I think a large percentage shop outside because of the large price difference between Genesis and comparable cars (taking into account luxury, features, performance, size, etc). Obviously, Krafcik knows that price is the biggest competitive fact in determining the competition.

I will have to grant you one compliment in that it does take a lot of balls to come back here after seeing the Krafcik video repudiate your comments in this thread, and then pretend like nothing happened.

And this Video was how long ago? This video came out 5 years ago much has changed. The Accord EX-L isn't even as luxurious as an Optima SXL, The ES350 has cheaper materials than an Azera and the CTS has moved up in class just like the Genesis. Why do you keep downplaying the Genesis?

Even though you can get a mostly loaded 328i for like $54k That doesn't make that a competitor to the Genesis. Someone looking for a 3-series size car isn't looking for something as big as the Genesis.

Again it compares to the 5/A6/E/XF/CTS/GS etc...

 

[Mark_888]

And this Video was how long ago? This video came out 5 years ago much has changed. The Accord EX-L isn't even as luxurious as an Optima SXL, The ES350 has cheaper materials than an Azera and the CTS has moved up in class just like the Genesis. Why do you keep downplaying the Genesis?

Even though you can get a mostly loaded 328i for like $54k That doesn't make that a competitor to the Genesis. Someone looking for a 3-series size car isn't looking for something as big as the Genesis.

Again it compares to the 5/A6/E/XF/CTS/GS etc...

The video definitely pertains to the 1st generation Genesis, and because of the big price increases, it will be different for 2015.

I am not downplaying the Genesis, but just doing two things:

1. Repeating what John Krafcik, HMA CEO up until January 2014, said was the Genesis competition back in 2009.
2. Making observations about what other cars I have heard discussed by members of this forum that they also considered buying (or switched to after owning a Genesis)

When considering competition, most (but not all) people look at price, and not necessarily features, luxury, etc. Granted that the Genesis is much less expensive than most comparable cars, but if a shopper is looking at price categories, they will usually shop other cars in the same price range.

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[YEH]

Krafcik was trying to be modest and keep expectations down on one hand, but at the same time, he refers to the Japanese and German luxury just as much, if not more when talking about the Genesis sedan.

The story of Equus begins with its platform-mate, the Hyundai Genesis. When I joined Hyundai in early 2004, the company had already begun the planning for this bold product — a rear-wheel-drive, premium sport sedan designed to take on the BMW 5 Series, Lexus GS and Mercedes-Benz E-Class. We ended up spending a much longer than usual amount of time in the product development process with Genesis.

It has captured a 6.3 percent retail market share of the mid-luxury market this year, putting it in 4th place in this highly competitive segment, behind only the Lexus ES, Mercedes E-Class and BMW 5 Series. It's ahead of the other 14 entrants in the segment, including the Infiniti M, Lexus GS, Lincoln MKS and Audi A6.

http://www.edmunds.com/car-reviews/features/hyundai-the-equus-story-by-john-krafcik.html

The Genesis was not design to take on the Avalon b/c that's what the Azera is for.

And now, with the AG FWD luxury sedan, Hyundai will have an ES competitor.

It's not like Hyundai just come up w/ new models based on nothing.

There's a reason why Toyota developed 3 RWD sedans for Lexus w/ the IS, GS and LS and why Infiniti did the same before abandoning the flagship segment.

And it's not like those guys aren't ever wrong (like the absurd 30k annual sales goal for the Genesis coupe).

 

[Midnightsun]

It just so happens one of the engineers picked up a brand new Avalon Limited last week. Went for a ride yesterday and boy is it small. No comparison what so ever size wise to a Genesis. I was really disappointed in the ride as it was harsh and jittery. The Genesis felt like being on a cloud after the Avalon, no shittin! Interior was rather nice but again quite small.

 

[YEH]

Mark may poo poo the effects of marketing, but Beats Audio was sold for a whopping $3 billion.

That for a maker of decent to crappy headphones (can chalk it up to marketing as for Bose, Monster Cable, etc.).

And then you have the makers of high quality headphones - Audio-Technica, Grado, Sennheiser, Beyerdynamic, AKG, Audeze, etc. - and their combined market value probably isn't what Apple just paid for Beats.