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Alignment?

Well, it looks like the third time was the charm on my alignment issue. This time the dealer had their "master tech" do the alignment and the result is a much better driving car. It still isn't perfect as it is much more sensitive to road camber than it should be, but it does track straight under most conditions. Hyundai still needs to fine tune their specs.

The interesting thing was, they asked me if I had hit some massive pot holes since my last visit as the alignment was totally different than what had been put on it previously. Uh, no. This led me to believe that they had a wonky alignment rack or tech.
 
My GC 3.8 GT has always pulled to the right since I first bought the car.

It has been at the dealer at least 4 times (about 12 - 13 days total) to try it. Each time they say they "think" they got it but on my way back home I find it still pulls. This time around it's been in the shop since last Saturday and now they are bringing in someone this morning who might know something about it. I freaking hope so!

I've had many people tell me it's either road crowns or the staggered tire sizes. If the car were sensitive to road crowns then it would pull left or right depending on which lane I'm in. But it doesn't ever pull to the left, even if I'm in the on coming lane and let go of the wheel. And if there is a stiff crosswind blowing hard against the right side of the car I still have to pull the wheel left.

At slow speeds I don't notice it so much if at all which is weird. But at highway speeds it gets worse.

I'm almost at the end of my rope. I love the car but it gets really fatiguing (and frustrating) having to pull the wheel left so much. It makes my arm hurt and my hand gets numb. I just want the car to steer straight even if it has to wander a bit due to ruts.
 
Grrrrrrr! I just checked my voice mail and the Service Manager said the alignment is within spec and there's nothing else they can do. This is complete BS! I have no idea what to do now. I don't want the car if it's always going to be pulling to the right. I've never had a car do this (an unfixable pull) and I've owned at least 30 of them over the years.
 
Some folks with the sedan experienced similar issues - a pull to one side regardless of the road crown. Alignment was "within spec." FORCING the tech to adjust an "in spec" car to "spot-on" made the difference. With the alignment done to as close to ideal as possible - instead of within Hyundai's repair manual allowable "+/- band" - those cars were cured.

A wheel with a dragging brake caliper or bad/tight bearings will also pull to one side regardless of the alignment. In theory a car with a totally open differential would also push to one side.

mike c.
 
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Thanks mikec. My car does have the open diff instead of the lsd so hmm........
Perhaps I will jack it up this weekend and rotate each wheel by hand to see if one feels different than the other. I may also take it to an alignment shop and ask them to correct for the pull or to try and give it a more performance oriented alignment.

I don't want to pay out of pocket for a defect from the manufacturer but, I love driving this car. It's an absolute blast. And it's so easy to forgive when I get in and start driving it. It's kind of like when your wife or girlfriend does something that they shouldn't have but they give you that smile and a "I'm really sorry honey" and then you melt and all is forgiven.
 
My car too had pretty serious sensitivity to crowns - mostly on the left (I started this thread). After 27k miles I finally decided I had enough of the OEM Dunlops and installed a set of Michelin Pilot A/S tires. While I have only had these tires for a week, I find them much less sensitive to crowns - I have virtually no pull on the left and a very slight pull on the right. They have also improved the driving dynamics and snow traction.

If you still have the OEM tires you may want to try new tires.
 
Perhaps I will jack it up this weekend and rotate each wheel by hand to see if one feels different than the other.
If you do that, and it passes the tests... swap the tires side-to-side. Normally that's a no-no with radial tires (you generally don't want to reverse radial tire direction of rotation) but for a short test it won't hurt the tires. See if the pull changes significantly - especially if it pulls to the other direction. If so, jcs nailed it - lousy OEM tires.

Make sure you restore the wheels to their original position within a few days.

mike c.
 
I wanted to update my problem with something I found a couple of weeks ago. Normally it's just my wife and I in the car. I never have anyone in the rear seat because it's just to small. But the other day I had my 19yo son (5'11" 235lbs) in the car and he was sitting in the rear passenger side seat and stuffed in like a sardine. While he was back there the car drove just as straight as can be. It didn't pull to the right at all at all. I've been trying to wrap my head around why that may be but I can't. How can extra weight on the right side of the car cause the car to stop pulling right?
 
Car suspensions have a simple task to describe but hard to actually do: control wheel movement and keep the tire in proper contact with the road despite things like bumps/depressions in the road, physics trying to make the car tip over during hard cornering, etc.

In a nutshell, suspensions often can't perfectly satisfy these goals... the wheel+tire can tip in/out (not be vertical or perpendicular to the ground) and can steer slightly as the suspension compresses or extends over bumps. Good suspensions keep the wheel straight & vertical; bad suspensions allow a lot of this type of motion.

The issue experienced/described by Soledad sounds like toe angle is changing so one of the rear wheels is pointed slightly differently from the "straight ahead" and the rear end of the car tries to steer a bit. I'd have the dealer examine the bushings for problems.


Long-winded explanation if you really want to know, or have insomnia:

Suspensions are basically arrangements of pivoting parts that ideally make the wheel go straight up-and-down as it passes bumps/drops in the pavement. Unfortunately straight up-and-down is rather difficult to obtain. Try this test: hold your right arm straight out from your side, pretending it is a suspension piece. Wrap your right hand around a pen or pencil and hold your hand+wrist so the pen is perfectly vertical. Now rotate your shoulder to move your hand up and down while holding your wrist constant. The pen moves in an arc, right - it doesn't stay perfectly vertical. That's a very dirt simple/basic suspension design - a "swing arm" as used on VW Beetles decades ago.

Now move your hand up and down again but this time let your wrist flex so the pen stays vertical. If you imagine you had two right arms - one at your shoulder and one attached to the base of your rib cage - holding the pen, your arms, the pen, and your body would basically form a rectangle - that's like a dual "A" arm suspension or part of a modern multi-link suspension. As the wheel (i.e. the pen) moves up/down over bumps in the road both wrists flex so the arms stay parallel and the pen stays vertical too --> the tire stays "flat" on the road for better grip. But... notice the pen is moving in-and-out from your body as it goes up-and-down... a tire doing that on the road ends up pushing your car left/right as it goes up-and-down. So we still don't have the "ideal" wheel movement of pure vertical motion over road bumps.

Now imagine holding "both of your right arms" straight out again... then lean your body to the left as though the body of the car were leaning in a high performance turn. Your hands, and the pen (wheel+tire don't forget), try to rise as you lean... so let your arms and wrist flex to keep the pen at a constant height (wheel + tire staying on the pavement). Again, you'll see/feel the pen needs to move inwards, towards you, as you lean... a wheel+tire has to move sideways on the pavement as the car body rolls. Also, because your two right arms are a constant length, when your body leans that forces the pen to lean - our rectangle has become a parallelogram. A tire that is leaning doesn't have its tread flat on the pavement and thus can't operate at maximum grip.

A multi-link suspension has arms that simulate that rectangle but the rectangle is distorted a bit - more of a trapezoid shape - with unquall length arms. When done correctly, it reduces that wheel tilt motion as your body leans.

In my example, your arms are "locating" the wheel laterally from you, the car body. But what keeps the pen (wheel) from moving fore/aft --> imagine somebody else facing you and pushing the pen straight backwards. Your arms would not be able to resist that much... the same is true on a car. So cars have a fore-aft link to resist this type of force. That link is much like our first example: a single arm with two pivots. So now when the pen (wheel) hits a bump in the road and moves up or down, your arms make it want to move in/out too... and this fore/aft link makes it want to move fore and aft. With all those links trying to hold the pen (wheel & tire) it's almost impossible to keep the "geometry" perfect - i.e. the radii of the various arcs the pen is moving through. Plus these links attach to slightly different points of the car's wheel assembly so that screws up the radii a little too. The result of all these links pushing/pulling in different directions (roughly 90 degrees apart) is that the pen moves in/out, fore/aft, and doesn't quite stay vertical. And it can also twist along a vertical axis. What is a wheel+tire doing when it twists about a vertical axis? It steers - that's what your front wheels do to steer the car!

Loading the car with weight on just one side compresses that side of the suspension a little more than it's counterpart on the other side of the car... so the wheels on that side of the car get slight steering changes - called "toe" (think pigeon toed feet) changes. Remember the first pen example - the pen moving in an arc and not remaining vertical? The angle the wheel makes to the ground, when viewed from the front or rear of a car (i.e. how the wheel seems to tilt in/out) is called camber. That pen moving away from vertical has a lot of camber change. Good suspensions have little to no toe and camber change for most suspension movements; crappy suspensions change either or both quite a bit. The whole point of complex "multi-link" suspensions is to allow as much wheel up-and-down travel over road imperfections while minimizing toe and minimizing the camber change of the wheel

Car suspension parts end in rubber parts called bushings. Think of bushings as stiff springs: they have a little "give" to them, compared to the strong metal parts of the suspension, to absorb any imperfections in those radii. They also filter out a lot of the high frequency road noise. Whenever the wheel moves up/down due to a road imperfection, or you make a turn, etc. these bushings "give" a little (they're springs, right?). This "give" alters the relationship between the suspension arms and the wheel assembly... screwing up the suspension's ability to control that wheel. A bad bushing, worn out one, or improperly installed bushing is basically a really soft one, introducing a lot of slop to the wheel assembly... so the suspension can't keep the wheel toe & camber under control.

mike c.
 
I would like to add to the thread. On my 2009 V6 with 18K, I have noticed over the last three months a pull to the left at interstate speeds independent of being in the right or left lanes. This did not occur prior to that and I have had a tire rotation about 6 months ago. Bottom line, my car now requires allot more attention to stay in my lane and easy drifts out of lane with any radio / nav operation. I can not let go of the steering wheel for any amount of time and the attention / effort it requires to stay in my lane exceeds any of my previous cars. I am going to the dealer tomorrow for an air bag warning light and trying to make up my mind if I want to waste my money on a 4 wheel alignment? Anothe tire rotation? Or a alignment shop?
Steve
 
Odds are the tire rotation was to swap a left front to/from left rear, and right front to/from right rear. I.e. the front tires became back tires, back tires are now front tires, but the tires remained on the same side of the vehicle.

If there exists a suspension/alignment issue on either rear suspension side, the "old" rear tire from that side may be oddball worn - and distorted. Now that it is a front tire, that distortion is having a lot more influence on the steering wheel feel. It can be hard to see... but if you kneel down directly in front of a tire and eyeball it, look at the sidewalls of the tire and the TOP tread surface. Imagine straight lines tangent to the sides & tread area. Ideally these lines meet with perfect 90 degree angles. If the tire has unusual wear from an alignment issue, the tread region might be more worn on the inner or outer edge... so the angles are less than 90 degrees tread-to-sidewall and more than 90 degrees tread-to-other-sidewall. You can use a coin, micrometer tool, or even a toothpick to check tire tread depth: measure the tread depth on the outer-most groove of the tire and compare it to the inner-most groove. They should be identical. If they're significantly different, the tire has uneven wear. Next, compare the depth of those grooves to the center groove. If the center groove is significantly shallower or deeper than both outer grooves then the tire has been running with incorrect air pressure/inflation.

Too much air = tire "bulges" in the center area, so the center groove will be shallower because it's doing most of the work.
Too little air makes the tread region bow/arc inwards - towards the rim - so the center tread isn't doing much work and the groove will be deeper - less wear - than the outer grooves.

Another test: stand facing the rim/lug nuts. Run your palm over the tread as if you were petting an animal. Move your palm front-back, not side to side. Feel the lateral grooves and tread blocks this way. If your hand slides across the tire easily when you move towards the rear of the car and "snags" on what feels like rubber saw teeth as you move forward the tire wear is saying there is a basic toe-angle miss-alignment, probably on the rear wheel where this tire spent a lot of time. (toe angle is how "straight" the tire is relative to straight-ahead. Toe-in means the front of the tire is slightly closer to the car centerline than the rear of the tire - like standing with your feet such that your toes touch but your heels are separated. That's "toes in")

Eventually toe problems will cause the tires to wear such that either the inner or outer edges of the tire will wear more quickly. "Camber" issues in the suspension (camber = how the tire leans in/out when viewed from directly behind the tire) make one edge of the tire carry more of the vehicle weight. A car with "negative camber" will have the tires leaning inwards at the tops, so the bulk of the tire wear happens on the inner edge. Stand with your feet about 12 inches apart but your knees touching... see how you're standing on the inner edges of your shoes? That's negative camber. Moving a tire that's been worn due to bad camber to the front of the car will cause a pull as well. The tread depth tests I described earlier are basically looking for camber wear in the tire.

Of course you could just move the left front tire back to the left rear yourself (may need to use the spare as a temp placeholder if you have only one jack) and go for a test drive. Is the pull gone? If so, one or both left tires are unusually worn. Still pulls? Put the left tires back, then swap the right side and try again.

Edit: tires can also have internal failures/breaks that make them change shape too. Not uncommon - even on brand new tires.

mike c.
 
Mine pulls to the right. Got new tires, still pulls. Got a new alignment and got everything lined up to spec except caster. And caster is not adjustable on Hyundai. Still pulls to the right. Not terrible, but not acceptable either.
 
I've still got a pull to the right after replacing a new set of tires with another brand thinking the tires were the problem. I made a call to my Hyundai dealer about it and you know what I was told? YOUR NOT GOING TO BELIEVE THIS!

" The car was designed this way because if you fall asleep at the wheel, it will turn to the right" :eek:

SAY WHAT!!!!!:confused:

I asked the service writer if she was blowing smoke up my @$$. She wasn't kidding. I went to my local tire shop who I had been doing business with for over 20 years and told them the story and the were laughing so hard I thought they were going to piss themselves.

My dealer told me for 120.00 they could do a full alignment. I've got 14 grand on the clock and have never hit any potholes. They also told me to only have THEM do it because tires shops don't have the experience necessary for these higher tech cars with electronic stability control sensors on the wheels. HUH????

I'm not going to ramble on about the alignment issues since this has been covered already. Just wanted to share this bit of information with all of you before I call Hyundai corporate.
 
I've still got a pull to the right after replacing a new set of tires with another brand thinking the tires were the problem. I made a call to my Hyundai dealer about it and you know what I was told? YOUR NOT GOING TO BELIEVE THIS!

" The car was designed this way because if you fall asleep at the wheel, it will turn to the right" :eek:

SAY WHAT!!!!!:confused:

I asked the service writer if she was blowing smoke up my @$$. She wasn't kidding. I went to my local tire shop who I had been doing business with for over 20 years and told them the story and the were laughing so hard I thought they were going to piss themselves.

My dealer told me for 120.00 they could do a full alignment. I've got 14 grand on the clock and have never hit any potholes. They also told me to only have THEM do it because tires shops don't have the experience necessary for these higher tech cars with electronic stability control sensors on the wheels. HUH????

I'm not going to ramble on about the alignment issues since this has been covered already. Just wanted to share this bit of information with all of you before I call Hyundai corporate.

Still could be tires. Radial pull can happen with any brand. Directional thread tires may be somewhat more prone to radila pull. A new set of tires does not discount a bad tire or tires in a set. Years ago when I worked for Goodyear the company had a production run of several brands and tire names with radial pull on several thousand tires. Yes I did mean brands, such as Dunlop, Kelly, and others that are made by Goodyear.
 
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2012 Genesis 4.6 loaded. 4000 miles. Dunlop 5000M tires. Dramatic pull to RIGHT. I notice that most posts are pull to LEFT. I am not sure it matters, though. Bad tracking/supension/alignment/tires could easily be RIGHT I suppose.

Multiple trips to dealer, usual response:
Trip 1:Tire pressure off
Trip 2:Alignment off.Service mgr says car "Fine". Car pulls right
Trip 3:Tires rotated and swapped sides. Service mgr says "Car fine this time"Car still pulls right
Trip 4: ...I haven't figured out what to do for the fourth trip

Should I demand Hyundai Corp get involved? There is only one dealer in town, so I can't just go to another dealer. I think they simply do not know what to do. Will Hyundai send a tech in to take over or am I out of luck. There has to be a mechanism for fixing this, and the dealer will not swap out the tires. If I buy a new set of tire on my own, that's a $1000 experiment I am not willing to do. Anyone got some suggestions? Does Hyundai corporate respond?
 
Should I demand Hyundai Corp get involved? There is only one dealer in town, so I can't just go to another dealer. I think they simply do not know what to do. Will Hyundai send a tech in to take over or am I out of luck. There has to be a mechanism for fixing this, and the dealer will not swap out the tires. If I buy a new set of tire on my own, that's a $1000 experiment I am not willing to do. Anyone got some suggestions? Does Hyundai corporate respond?

YES!

Definitely contact Hyundai corporate. I did and now have a case number for this same issue.

FYI. Went in for an alignment for the same issue, just not as severe to a place here in Seattle/Bellevue called Tru-Line Frame and Wheel.
(Washington state Genesis owners take note!) :)

http://trulineseattle.com/index.html

These techs setup exotics and regular vehicles better than spec and set up the vehicle to the way the driver drives. They have been in business since 1962 and there is a reason as to why they have been in business for so long.

They were able to dial in my 2011 4.6 to better than spec. It was a night and day difference! But even after they did the alignment, the right pull was still evident. Just not as bad as before. The owner, who was also the tech who worked on my car attributed it to radial pull. He also noticed that the steering cradle was off and had to loosen it up to get a better than spec reading. Hmm....steering cradle off? I have been through two sets of tires now in the last two months to solve this issue and will now be getting a third set next week hopefully eliminating this problem once and for all.

The tires I went with, and PLEASE, lets not start a good tire, bad tire posting war here were....

1. Continental DWS
2. General G-Max AS 03
And for number 3
3. Bridgestone Turanza Serenity PLUS ( yeah homeofstone I know, I know):rolleyes:

I'll dig out the paper work from Tru-Line and try and scan the results of their alignment readings. The rear wheel specs were off from the factory and the fronts were a bit off as well. Also.....

There is another thread from another Genesis owner who claims that changing the tire pressure monitors cured his problem and he just PM'd me today to let me know those were the monitors he was talking about on his thread.

http://www.genesisowners.com/hyundai-genesis-forum/showthread.php?p=114236&posted=1#post114236

So in conclusion, if you have a frame and wheel shop in your area that can set up exotic cars and or been in the alignment business for awhile, I would suggest a "proper" alignment from them instead of the usual tire shops. I'm not saying all tire shops are bad, just certain ones have more experienced techs who know under car mechanics well.

Also check with your dealer to see if there is an issue with the tire pressure monitors and also have them check the ABS sensors for another Genesis owner said that this also might have contributed to his pulling problem.

Please keep us posted on your progress. As a group, I'm sure we can solve this! :grouphug:

Perry
 
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I wanted to update my problem with something I found a couple of weeks ago. Normally it's just my wife and I in the car. I never have anyone in the rear seat because it's just to small. But the other day I had my 19yo son (5'11" 235lbs) in the car and he was sitting in the rear passenger side seat and stuffed in like a sardine. While he was back there the car drove just as straight as can be. It didn't pull to the right at all at all. I've been trying to wrap my head around why that may be but I can't. How can extra weight on the right side of the car cause the car to stop pulling right?

Soledad,

My alignment shop, Tru-Line explained this to me. This is why I was wondering why they asked me about my weight, and any passengers weight before they aligned my car. They also asked me about my driving style, "spirited" or just smooth freeway commuting.

The owner said that front end geometry will change when weight is added to the car. When they aligned my car, they added 200# of weight to the drivers seat to simulate my weight load. Since I am the primary driver of the car 90% of the time, these were the only weights used. End result, a better driving car. :)

Your car sounds like it balanced out causing a shift in the steering geometry correcting the problem you encountered. Something is definitely off.
 
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