Brake Fluid Recall!

[Jbo]

Re: Brake Fluid TSB!

As I said, just my old butt feel in'. Again The V6 is a great car...the RSpec is incredible....but I'm am old CID guy who loves V8's and mountains of power

 

[kman]

Just reporting back. I wasted some of my own time yesterday and went back to the dealer. He flushed the brake fluid and did confirm there were air bubbles in the lines. Afterwards the brake feel is much better.

I'm still not sure if it is as good as it was originally, but memory plays tricks on you in such cases. I asked them to test drive one of their Genesis Sedans off of their parking lot to see if it felt similar. My conclusion was that it felt worse than my car Could have been that they have done the fluid change on it and also left air in the brake lines. Either way, at this point I am happy with how my brakes feel.

 

[Mark_888]

I asked them to test drive one of their Genesis Sedans off of their parking lot to see if it felt similar. My conclusion was that it felt worse than my car Could have been that they have done the fluid change on it and also left air in the brake lines. Either way, at this point I am happy with how my brakes feel.

The TSB states that dealers are required to do it for cars in inventory before sale, so that could be.

 

[Philth]

Re: Brake Fluid TSB!

I'm driving a Genesis loaner while they update my nav software. The brakes are horrible.

 

[mikec]

I had my 2009 V8/Tech sedan at the dealer yesterday for the brake TSB campaign and an oil change. It didn't take them long for both jobs. The brake pedal feels about the same to me, braking performance is similar too. If anybody feels their pedal got softer after the TSB I'd bet their dealership allowed some air into the brake lines or left a bleed port loose. The TSB procedure does NOT have the dealership drain the system (i.e. filling it with nothing but air) and then re-fill it with DOT4. Instead, the TSB procedure specifies topping off the brake reservoir with DOT4 fluid and then pumping the brake pedal a certain number of times while the brake bleeder port (at one wheel/brake caliper at a time) is open, thus pushing the new DOT4 into the system and the old DOT3 out. More DOT4 is added, keeping the reservoir topped off. If air gets into the system, it's because:

a) the dealership didn't follow the TSB and instead drained the system first and then didn't do a correct/proper bleed job when the filled it with DOT4.

b) the dealership let the reservoir fluid level drop too low so air got sucked into the master cylinder and from there was pumped throughout the system. Just plain sloppy mechanic work. When bleeding brakes there must ALWAYS be fluid in the reservoir!

c) the brake pedal was allowed to rise while the bleed port was open and exposed to air... sucking in air directly into the caliper. Again, a sign of a careless/sloppy mechanic.

d) If the caliper bleed port is unscrewed too far, or is sloppy/loose, air can actually sneak past the threads and get into the caliper. I see this a lot on older cars; a simple work-around is to smear a little gasket sealer (e.g. "Ultra Copper") around the base of the bleeder port (like caulking a leaking house window).

e) air was in the system previously and had a chance to collect into bigger (more squishy) bubbles thanks to all the brake fluid motion.

On my Genesis I've always wished the pedal had less initial travel before really doing anything; the soft pedal caused by the adaptive braking function's default "easy stop" mode annoys me. I end up quickly pumping the pedal one time (getting the adaptive braking into the "hard or panic stop" mode) then using it normally to get braking feel more like my other (much older) cars. I've driven new cars with even softer/more-travel brake pedals which always makes me panic - I can't get used to the delayed brake application that makes me think "brakes just failed!" Most new cars are set up similar to the Genesis: a fair bit of pedal travel and not a whole lot of force. Just not my preference. At least the TSB didn't make it worse.

mike c.

 

[Mark_888]

If there is air in the brake lines, will the air eventually go away (or go into the reservoir, etc)?

 

[EXBMWGUY]

Re: Brake Fluid TSB!

The only time there should be any difference in the behavior of the brakes after the TSB-Dot 3 to Dot 4 should be at the extreme condition of fluid boiling, which causes the bubbles and the spongy pedal-to-the-floor-sinking feeling. That should rarely occur with street driving. So if its strange, go back to your dealer.

 

[WowCool]

If there is air in the brake lines, will the air eventually go away (or go into the reservoir, etc)?

Hey Mark, I doubt the Air will go away! it will remain, the Brake system is an airtight unit.. Bleeding is the Correct & Only way to get rid of Air in the system.
Иметь хороший день, член Автомобилиста " --

 

[Mark_888]

Hey Mark, I doubt the Air will go away! it will remain, the Brake system is an airtight unit.. Bleeding is the Correct & Only way to get rid of Air in the system.

When I first got my car back after the DOT-4 upgrade, the brake feel was clearly degraded from before, but it has noticeably improved since then. But I am not sure exactly how much it has improved, since I may have just got used to the new feel.

Yes the system is (sort of) air tight, assuming the brake fluid reservoir is attached correctly, but if air in the brake lines were to percolate up into the reservoir (not sure than actually can happen, which is why I am asking) then the brake fluid level would decrease slightly to make room for more air in the reservoir, and an equilibrium would be maintained (or it seems that way to me). But not sure if the air bubbles in the brake lines can make their way back up to the reservoir.

Also, even if air would not rise to the reservoir in an air tight system, what if one removed the reservoir cap and pumped the brakes hard (while standing still, since don't want to drive with reservoir cap off)?

 

[mikec]

The system isn't totally air tight. The brake fluid reservoir cap will let air in/out of the reservoir. As the brake pads wear down, there is more volume behind the pistons in the brake calipers... ergo more fluid ends up in the calipers dropping the reservoir level. Air has to get into the reservoir to allow this to happen. The metal brake system parts will expand/contract slightly with temperature too (like all metal items) so the reservoir fluid level can fluctuate from that as well.

The cap is supposed to allow only a tiny airflow volume in/out; the air follows a zig-zag pattern in that bump on the cap which helps keep dirt/dust out of the reservoir.

Under normal operation, the brake fluid in the various lines moves a little towards the brake calipers when you press the pedal, and then moves back a little when you release the pedal. The fluid path is a single pipe to/from each caliper instead a "loop" shape. So it's difficult for each molecule of fluid to travel the whole system during normal operation - instead they just move back and forth over a small distance... ergo any air or dirt in the fluid tends to stay put. Parking on a steep uphill slope can let air bubbles slowly migrate (imagine small bubbles in Prell shampoo - they move slowly) quite a bit but there are some up/down zig-zags in the brake lines so air bubbles may find a local "high spot" in the lines and get trapped rather than working their way backwards into the master cylinder and then brake reservoir. The ABS claptrap also introduces zig-zags that may trap air bubbles.

Normal brake bleeding processes push the fluid through the brake lines fairly quickly - limiting the time air bubbles can flow uphill towards the master cylinder. And since the fluid is pushed OUT of the calipers (via the bleed port) many of those individual fluid molecules do get a chance to travel the whole length of the system, dragging dirt and air with them.

Air in the master cylinder stands a much better chance of self-migrating out of the system, into the reservoir. Just parking on a downhill can make this happen. Perhaps that's what Mark_888 experienced with his car.

mike c.

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[bsantelli]

How long should it take to replace the brake fluid? My dealer said it would take 90 minutes, added on to the time for the oil change and inspection which I was already there for - and so I didn't have another 90 minutes to wait so I scheduled the TSB for another time.
But they have me thinking about how long it takes them to perform service. This is the second time an oil change and inspection has taken so long - once I went in for oil change along and it was nearly as long (about 90 minutes) - are these times normal? and is 90 minutes for the brake fluid change normal?

Because of the location I have to wait there as opposed to dropping off, and I seem to waste alot of time sitting waiting.

Thank,
Brian

 

[Mark_888]

How long should it take to replace the brake fluid? My dealer said it would take 90 minutes, added on to the time for the oil change and inspection which I was already there for - and so I didn't have another 90 minutes to wait so I scheduled the TSB for another time.
But they have me thinking about how long it takes them to perform service. This is the second time an oil change and inspection has taken so long - once I went in for oil change along and it was nearly as long (about 90 minutes) - are these times normal? and is 90 minutes for the brake fluid change normal?

Because of the location I have to wait there as opposed to dropping off, and I seem to waste alot of time sitting waiting.

Thank,
Brian

My dealer did not do the brake flush correctly, so I wish they had taken more time to do it right (and make sure no air in the brake lines). This adversely affected my brakes.

Suppose I told you it should only take 60 minutes (even though I am not saying that), what difference would that make to you? Are you going to start arguing with the Service Advisor/Manager?

Also, are you assuming that they can start work on your car as soon as you arrive? That is very unlikely even if you have a reservation.

 

[bsantelli]

My dealer did not do the brake flush correctly, so I wish they had taken more time to do it right (and make sure no air in the brake lines). This adversely affected my brakes.

Suppose I told you it should only take 60 minutes (even though I am not saying that), what difference would that make to you? Are you going to start arguing with the Service Advisor/Manager?

Also, are you assuming that they can start work on your car as soon as you arrive? That is very unlikely even if you have a reservation.

No, I won't start arguing with the service manager, I was just asking because I am trying to figure out if my dealership is slower tha nother and if 90 mins is normal for an inspection and oil change as well - and if so I may just start taking it to my local mechanic (where I can drop it off) instead of the dealership for things like an oil change, inspections, etc. So I was just trying to get a feel if my dealership takes longer than others. And by the way, I make a specific appointment for a specific time, and so yes, I do expect that they start on it fairly close to the time I bring it in since it is a 'will wait' appointment. I do know at least, they moved it out of the drop off bay right away, but I do realize that doesn't mean they started the work right away. Maybe my expectations are just too high or I just don't have a lot of patience, or both. For what it is worth, I get just as aggravated at my orthopedic surgeons office, where I sit in the waiting room for 30 mins, and then in the exam room for another 30 mins before the dr's comes in - but the difference there, is I don't have much of another choice.

 

[1FstYota]

Re: Brake Fluid TSB!

Sounds like your just impatient, when I did the recall it took little over an hour thats including a car wash after so 90 minutes is not unreasonable.

 

[Mark_888]

And by the way, I make a specific appointment for a specific time, and so yes, I do expect that they start on it fairly close to the time I bring it in since it is a 'will wait' appointment.

I understand your frustration, but that is unrealistic. It is no different than a doctors office in that an appointment it is only an estimate, and in reality there is no way they can start every one on-time. They deliberately make sure there is always a little more scheduled than they can do, so they don't end up with slack time. There are always last second cancellations or no shows, and they don't want to get stuck with idle workers. It is part of the service business. If they were always able to start exactly on time, they would have double their prices.

 

[StangKiller]

I just had this done. Only had an appt for the oil change. Quoted 60 mins, ended up taking them about two hours.