Dead pedal / “Engine falls flat” potential fix..

[daviderle]

^^^+1

Indeed, there no danger of the thing making it through the air filter, that is why I suggested and used anti skid pad which is made out of a light material in the first place!

As I mentioned before;

implement this mod only if you are able re-create the 'dead pedal' issue.

According the data collected, this mod. may only be useful if you can detect / feel / recreate the dead engine / peddle issue, otherwise the gains (if any) should not be perceptible...

Just my two cents, for me it is all about the data.... Perception, feelings and other auxiliary factors come a distant second...

 

[daviderle]

It looks like few people have tried this mod., unfortunately D) I am unable to recreate this issue after I installed the Uniq rigit collar on either of my two cars.

However, this mod appears it helped some people already, so in order to continue the research to assist other people who suffer from these issues, gather more data and validate real world usage scenarios, please feel free to vote to see if this mod had any impact for your specific case / issue.

 

[Youseethefight]

Thanks I'm gonna try this mod this week. My car has a delay from dead stop, full, throttle, esc off. 1st time this happened I was like

I have been trying to experience this issue first hand for a week, I am happy to report that I was able to it create twice, the first time I did not have logging enabled for the OBDII, but fortunately I was able to recreate it the second time around while I had the raw data logging enabled.

After studying the data late last night, I think I may have found one of the root causes that contributes to this phenomenon.

By looking at fuel flow, Throttle position, MAF (Mass-air Flow Sensor), RPM I determined there a delay of approximately after 1.65 but before 1.87 seconds when the RPM begins to rapidly to pickup.

The sequence of events is as follows:

0.00 sec Throttle position change
0.15 sec Fuel flow increases
0.33 sec Fuel flow reduced (almost idle)
1.37 sec Fuel flow increases very slowly
1.49 sec RPM begins to rise.
1.86 sec MAF reading changes significantly
1.86 sec Fuel flow increases significantly

Without boring everyone to death with the gory details, suffice to say I suspect the engine is being chocked under this condition!

So this morning I wracked my brain as to what might cause this and remembered some old threads were we discussed removing the ‘flapper’ located in air filter unit.

The MAF main impact variation is the air flow door (=flapper) position, is only opened when there is sufficient vacuum to overcome the magnet force keeping it in the closed position. To my surprise the magnet in the R-Spec is much stronger than found in my other car (2009 4.6).

To cut a long story short, I found some 1/2” inch Self-Adhesive Anti-Skid pad (the ones used to under objects so they do not scratch a glass table), lying around to experiment with by placing it between the magnet and the main air intake door to weaken the magnet effect, with following results:

0.0 sec Throttle position change
0.15 sec Fuel flow changes
0.23 sec RPM begins to rise up
0.36 sec MAF reading changes significantly
0.47 sec Fuel flow increases significantly

I have done two runs with at least 13 different attempts to recreate the issue without any success

I will keep experimenting, but for everyone else that has been suffering from this issue, it will be interesting to validate if this $2 mod can have a positive impact.

[EDIT instructions]

- Open the hood
- The air filter unit is located on the passenger side and to the front of the vehicle.
- Remove the two clips securing at the back of the unit.
- Gently loosen up the top and remove away from the unit.
- Remove the air filter
- Gently lift the large air intake door at the bottom of the unit, from the left where the magnet located.
- While holding the door open with one hand, firmly install Self-adhesive Anti-Skid pad on top of the lower magnet as shown below.

Sorry for the blurry pictures:

View attachment 3832
View attachment 3833

As a reminder, any modification made to your vehicle may have an impact on your warranty.

 

[rhubarb9999]

I did this mod last week. Used a few sticky felt 'feet' stacked together. Probably keeping the door about 1/2" open and greatly reducing the force of the magnet.

I did the mod to my 2010 4.6 on Thursday but did not drive the car until Sunday. I actually had forgotten that I did it. When i started driving, I thought the car felt more like a 'normal' car and not what I had gotten used to. Light throttle off a stoplight was more responsive. Pushing a little harder did not cause the car to have the typical 'dip' in response that I had been living with.

Then I remembered I did the mod.

I think it makes a big difference in normal driving. I don't typically floor the pedal so I cant speak on if it helps with that, but I like the change under my normal driving conditions.

If you are on the fence, don't be. Do it!

 

[Youseethefight]

How does this mod work for your R-Spec? Improvements in WOT?

Normal driving?


Thanks

I did this mod last week. Used a few sticky felt 'feet' stacked together. Probably keeping the door about 1/2" open and greatly reducing the force of the magnet.

I did the mod to my 2010 4.6 on Thursday but did not drive the car until Sunday. I actually had forgotten that I did it. When i started driving, I thought the car felt more like a 'normal' car and not what I had gotten used to. Light throttle off a stoplight was more responsive. Pushing a little harder did not cause the car to have the typical 'dip' in response that I had been living with.

Then I remembered I did the mod.

I think it makes a big difference in normal driving. I don't typically floor the pedal so I cant speak on if it helps with that, but I like the change under my normal driving conditions.

If you are on the fence, don't be. Do it!

 

[daviderle]

Rhubarb9999, Good to hear this mod worked for you as well...

Please everyone, please try to take the time to vote on what results you have seen (top of the thread while logged in), especially if you have tried this mod, or made any intake changes, or do not have this issue, that way we can collectively assist each other by getting additional data to see how prevalent this problem in the G1 (2009-2014), as well as, if any intake changes have a positive impact on this issue..

How does this mod work for your R-Spec? Improvements in WOT?

Normal driving?


Thanks

I had to explicitly recreate the issue in my R-Spec, as I did not have significant issues from WOT or during normal/spirited driving to begin with!

After the Rigid collar mod was installed, I was not able to recreate the issue at all, despite me trying very hard to do so.

Although, after completing another set of tests (removed the mod), I reinstalled and left these mods in place for both the 4.6 and the R-Spec just incase as I do not want to ever be left in that position ever again...

 

[amartz]

I did this mod last week. Used a few sticky felt 'feet' stacked together. Probably keeping the door about 1/2" open and greatly reducing the force of the magnet.

I would have thought that was over-kill to have the door 0.5 inch open. I wouldn't think the magnet would even have any pull that far open. I used 4 stacked layers of black gorrilla duct tape, and I'm guessing cut the magnet's pull by half. What I didn't want to do is bleed off ram air pressure at highway speed with this mod. I would think holding the door open as much as you are would do that, giving up some performance at higher speeds.

 

[Rob]

I must be missing something...how does installing rigid collars negate the effect of a sticky air intake door? I have a 2009 V6 and it almost killed me once falling flat when I floored it trying to hit a hole in traffic that my old 2002 Accord V6 would've nailed. My wife complained about the same thing. I will definitely be trying this "fix" and posting/voting on the result.

 

[daviderle]

I must be missing something...how does installing rigid collars negate the effect of a sticky air intake door? I have a 2009 V6 and it almost killed me once falling flat when I floored it trying to hit a hole in traffic that my old 2002 Accord V6 would've nailed. My wife complained about the same thing. I will definitely be trying this "fix" and posting/voting on the result.

The only way I could create this issue on my R-Spec, is to slow down to a less than 5 mph, then breaking very gently to almost a dead stop while doing a soft turn left or right (45 degrees) then flooring it, the the opposite rear wheel breaks loose for a fraction of second, then the engine goes idle for almost two seconds, before it come back to life (no ESC lights or anything else that might indicate an issue)...

I could never create it in my 2009 4.6!

My only working theory is, under this particular condition the ECU gets confused and kills the fuel supply due to potentially improper air mixture, the Rigit collars is somehow stabilizing the chassis to a point that prevents wheels from breaking loose in a way that exacerbate this condition (prior to the upgrade)!

After the Rgit Collar mod, install, I can still make the rear wheels break lose, but:

A - both wheels break lose at almost the same time.
B - the rear part of the chassis / axle no longer shudders (slightly).
C - the ESC intervention / behavior is much more uniform and in equal measure to the amount of traction being lost / detected / felt, with ESC light start blinking at first, then comes solid if one keeps pushing it...

It is almost like the sensors measuring traction where missing data samples, or simply mis-interpreting how much traction is being lost before the Rigit collar upgrade, which I suspect must have some impact on the ECU behavior.

I wish I have taken some hard evidence / data , like a video, or used a device that would have measured the chassis movement before and after the upgrade.

However, I honestly did not think that particular upgrade would have such a profound impact on my vehicles, especially the R-Spec.

Please keep in mind this all based on theories and observations, I have nothing to gain by mentioning the Rigit Collar 'upgrade'.

What I find most interesting is collecting some real world usage / hard data, where people have this issue and can create it at will, others do not, yet some on rare occasion had this issue creeping up under certain conditions.

I am hopeful this mod. may help some people suffering from this particular problem, even though we do not fully understand the interaction between different subsystems found in our cars

Please keep it coming...

 

[HavasuPaPa]

I would have thought that was over-kill to have the door 0.5 inch open.

What I did was to remove each magnet from the flapper assembly. They slide out. Each magnet is encased in its own holder that slips into the flapper assembly. I then reinserted each magnet holder 180 from original. The magnet now pulls through the wall of the magnet holder and not directly magnet to magnet. Sorry, I didn't take any pictures.
This accomplished three things, (1) it won't cause the flapper door to have any gap when closed (2) it cut the magnet force by at least 60% (3) it didn't cost me anything. I first only flipped one of the magnets, but this only seemed to give about 30% less force. If you do only flip one magnet, be sure you also remove the magnet from it's holder and rotate it 180 or you will have incorrect polarity between the two magents. Oh yes...my 3.8 V6 has greatly improved throttle response from a rolling stop. I don't floor it from a dead stop so I can't respond to that issue.

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[daviderle]

Oh yes...my 3.8 V6 has greatly improved throttle response from a rolling stop. I don't floor it from a dead stop so I can't respond to that issue.

Darn good innovation to build on the basic principle and achieve a reduction in the magnet forces without any additional requirements, well done my man...

Hmmm, thinking about it some more... I wonder if one or both magnets were inserted the wrong way, on some vehicles during the assembly process?

That may explain why my R-Spec is stronger than my 4.6, and why some people have issues, while others do not!..

Please vote when you have a chance, that way others will continue to benefit from our findings.

 

[amartz]

I then reinserted each magnet holder 180 from original. The magnet now pulls through the wall of the magnet holder and not directly magnet to magnet.

Hmmm, if my duct tape ever comes loose with age, I'll definately try your solution. Wish I'd thought of that myself! Especially since the flapper can close with no gap at all!

 

[sluggo]

So the flapper exists to:
- Reduce intake noise?
- Provide a "choke" function?
- Add throttle delay for some unknown purpose?

Seriously, I'm confused about this. I stopped working on cars about 15 years ago, so a lot of this stuff is new to me, but I can't see how the flapper does anything that most of us would like. That is, it looks to me like just a cheap way to game the emissions tests or interior noise measurements (at idle). I can't see how denying the engine air at the instant that it's called for provides any benefit to the actual driving experience.

I'll certainly try the magnet mod, and if removing the flapper entirely is simple enough, I'll give it a try on my '13 3.8 Premium and report back.

 

[amartz]

The way I see it, it lets extra air into the intake when there is no ram-air pressure, and when you are going fast enough to get some ram-air effect, closes to force the pressurized air into the intake.

 

[Ram Air]

I've had my flapper removed completely now for about 6 weeks. Believe me, if there was anything more I could do to this intake arrangement I would do it. Love the improved sound. No loss, anywhere, in the power band. Maybe even improved response off idle, but I have no way of proving it. It's cold and snowy here now. It hasn't affected cold weather operation either.
Try it! You'll like it.

P.S There is no ram air effect due to the position of the opening on the air cleaner box (flapper or no flapper). There's a bloody big radiator in the way. Air enters because of vacuum provided by the engine. Give it the least amount of obstruction and your engine will be better off. I don't know about the 3.8. It may be oriented differently.
If you want to see true ram air systems check out pics of the Rebel Machine, Thunderbolt and Rambler Scrambler. Now that's Ram Air!

 

[amartz]

P.S There is no ram air effect due to the position of the opening on the air cleaner box (flapper or no flapper). There's a bloody big radiator in the way. Air enters because of vacuum provided by the engine. Give it the least amount of obstruction and your engine will be better off. I don't know about the 3.8.

This looks like a pretty sweet ram air system to me!!

 

[Ram Air]

I agree! Me too. Now what is it on and who made it? Certainly better than what's on the 5.0.

 

[amartz]

I agree! Me too. Now what is it on and who made it?

As in my signature, a 2012 3.8 Genesis Sedan. And Hyundai made it!! Came that way from the factory!!!

 

[Ram Air]

I stand corrected. I've got one of those on the 5.0 too. I never noticed it before.
I am humbled...... and feeling a little embarrassed too.

 

[amartz]

Always kinda wondered what the V8 setup was like. At triple digit speeds, which this car will get to *real* quick, those scoops gotta be worth some ponies thru forced induction. At least, if the flapper in the air box is closed....