Genesis Connected Services is selling Driving behavior, Location & Speed data to insurance companies

[Andyj]

Google probably tracks most hermit crabs on uninhabited islands at this point.

 

[Slip_Angle]

Anyone have a GM with Onstar. I've never paid for ONStar, let it run out after the initial 3 year "free" period. Have had the car for >4 years now. Let's look at some of last months report.

View attachment 25998


View attachment 25997

Yeah..

Ridiculous metrics to judge if someone is a lower or higher risk driver. They are missing the context of why any of these things occurred.

In addition, If you buy a performance car and know how to drive it by learning at track days or autocross, you'll be a better driver than the average person. You'll also likely accelerate and brake harder than most, which means you're a higher risk driver?? BS.

 

[Mcc]

Yeah..

Ridiculous metrics to judge if someone is a lower or higher risk driver. They are missing the context of why any of these things occurred.

In addition, If you buy a performance car and know how to drive it by learning at track days or autocross, you'll be a better driver than the average person. You'll also likely accelerate and brake harder than most, which means you're a higher risk driver?? BS.

Rationalization? I think you are making too many assumptions as to how the data will be interpreted or used. I certainly don’t know how.

 

[Slip_Angle]

Rationalization? I think you are making too many assumptions as to how the data will be interpreted or used. I certainly don’t know how.

Not really, I work in the insurance industry and it's to simple of a model.

 

[EdP]

Yeah..

Ridiculous metrics to judge if someone is a lower or higher risk driver. They are missing the context of why any of these things occurred.

In addition, If you buy a performance car and know how to drive it by learning at track days or autocross, you'll be a better driver than the average person. You'll also likely accelerate and brake harder than most, which means you're a higher risk driver?? BS.

What about driving over the speed limit? On many highways if you tried to do the speed limit, if you did not get rear ended you'd probably cause a 50 car pileup behind you. Speed differential causes more accidents than speed. 10 or 15 over is the norm at times and you better keep up.

 

[Slip_Angle]

What about driving over the speed limit? On many highways if you tried to do the speed limit, if you did not get rear ended you'd probably cause a 50 car pileup behind you. Speed differential causes more accidents than speed. 10 or 15 over is the norm at times and you better keep up.

Yes, another good example.

 

[TinsleyC]

Genesis does not know who my insurance company is and they do not share information about individuals.

Doesn't a financed auto require full coverage insurance? So Hyundai Finance doesn't know that my car is insured by State Farm? I think they do, and it won't surprise me if some day State Farm can get a data feed directly from Hyundai from my car. After all, why would they want to give me good rates if I drive like a maniac? Just giving an example here.

 

[EdP]

Doesn't a financed auto require full coverage insurance? So Hyundai Finance doesn't know that my car is insured by State Farm? I think they do, and it won't surprise me if some day State Farm can get a data feed directly from Hyundai from my car. After all, why would they want to give me good rates if I drive like a maniac? Just giving an example here.

I imagine you can connect it all but if you financed another way or paid cash or paid off your car how would they know? It all depends on your level of paranoia. If they did, you can take them to court and win. I repeat:
but will never provide your personal information to any non-Service Provider participants in the program without your additional express consent.

I have a friend that won't get EZPass because he is afraid of getting a ticket on a particular road in NJ where if you check the times you can tell the speed. If EZPass started giving that information for tickets 95% of us would get rid of them that day.

 

[sting70r]

One line is most important:
As part of the Usage Based Insurance program, anonymized driving data will be available to other third parties for analysis, but will never provide your personal information to any non-Service Provider participants in the program without your additional express consent.

If you fear this, I suggest you never use Google, Amazon, eBay, any internet provider, cell phone company. Pay your tolls in cash, no EZ Pass. Do not send your DNA to any of those ancestry things either. (one just solved a 30 year old murder) Cell phone tracking has caught many a criminal but they can track your speed too.

clearly you've ignored part of the sentence, which says any NON-Service provider, which means the service providers, like the ones noted in the T&C and explictly defined are included and will get data. I've addressed this in my initial post.

I don't know why you're bringing in Amazon, etc as they are completely different services and vendors where you explictly provide information in return for a service and beyond that you've noted e-Commerce vendors.

You're merely conflating unrelated technology companies & unrelated services (like DNA matching) due to limited understanding of the way they operate.

Some insurance companies offer discounts for safe driving if you install a device in your car. Now I agree with not having that as there is a direct link to you. Genesis does not know who my insurance company is and they do not share information about individuals.

If you are reading this, you are being tracked by someone. If you are worried, stay off the internet, get rid of cable TV as they know what you are watching. Do not use the telephone. Wear a mask as you enter most every store too. There are even cameras on the streets in some cities.

Depending on your level of paranoia you will really have to hide out. I graduated from 8th grade in 1959 and have moved 5 times and 3 states but they tracked me down looking for donations. Same with high school. My electric company know what I use on a daily basis. IMO, cruising the highway at 10 over is the least of it.

Genesis doesn't need to know who your insurance company is. If you're read the link PR link Hyundai/Genesis shares your data with VERISK as they agreed to "join the Verisk Data Exchange™". The Verisk Data Exchange allows VERISK to share your driving behavior and score to insurance companies that are their clients, who are also part of the Verisk Exchange

insurers can use the score from the Verisk Data Exchange to support usage-based insurance programs through a related rating rule available for use in 42 states and the District of Columbia.

Hyundai Motor America Selects Verisk For Usage-Based Insurance

/PRNewswire/ -- Hyundai Motor America and Verisk, a leading data analytics provider, today announced an alignment to bring usage-based insurance (UBI) programs...

www.prnewswire.com

Your comments about tracking and the need to completely be offline to avoid tracking are baseless. There's levels of data-mining and it's not a binary thing, where it's all or none. European nations (and State of California) have adopted Data-Privacy rules to provide consumers more control over the data that's being mined by companies... because there's a need to have control over your 'data-exhaust'.

It's no longer simply a "paranoia" factor... The examples you continue to provide make little sense in todays world of technology and how data is leveraged by companies.

 

[sting70r]

i don’t agree with it, but sadly this is the data collection age, everything everywhere is collecting data about you and there is little you can do about it.

you can discontinue the Genesis Connected Service, which should stop the data collection & sharing bit with Verisk (per the T&C). That said, they'll still be able to ping your vehcile and track if they choose to. My Connected Service got disabled, and when I press the button it gives me a Verizon Wireless automated system activation error, asking me to dial 611 (which I cant).

The only way to disable the tracking 100% is to physically disable the GSM/phone component inside the car, so the car is not 'connected to the internet'.

Don't AA and CarPlay do the same thing?

This is why having the latest and greatest (convenience) tech isn't always a good thing, but it's becoming more and more difficult to avoid tracking, harvesting of personal info, etc.

Android Auto is terrible as Google gets access to your cars telematics data (if you read through their T&C / Privacy Policy it's quite bad). Apple's been trying to play to the Privacy crowd of late, but they're in a similar game -- it's a battle to get as much data as possible from cars, and the consumer to do something with it (ads, to be resold to someone else, etc.).

Toyota tried to take a stand initially, but they caved. Android represents 80%+ of mobile OS marketshare and all their competitors also gave in:

Toyota won't use Android Auto over privacy concerns

A report by Motor1 states that Toyota won't integrate Android Auto with its vehicles because of privacy concerns. The company originally raised these concerns in 2015.

www.xda-developers.com

I prefer cars that are not connected, where I have more control over... but it's rarer these days. Most consumers are completely clueless about technology, and how companies make money from ads, and data that's mined.

The next best step is to disconnect and disable as much of the data-mining as possible and not use technology/services that are intrusive...it's harder to do especially when the lobbying (corruption) in the US has limited Federal data-privacy legislation, but you should make an effort to take a stand, imo.


****

Anyone have a GM with Onstar. I've never paid for ONStar, let it run out after the initial 3 year "free" period. Have had the car for >4 years now. Let's look at some of last months report.

Onstar pioneered the in-car spying and data mining service.

" As of Dec. 1, however, that will not necessarily be the case. Vehicles of owners who no longer subscribe could still be monitored via the system’s still-active two-way cellular link.
...
The second policy change concerns the potential use of the data collected by OnStar, which includes information like the vehicle’s speed and location, current odometer reading, driver seat-belt use and air-bag deployment. Under the new terms, OnStar reserves the right to share that information with other companies and organizations, even data culled from motorists who no longer subscribe to the service but who have left the two-way communications connection open.
..."

- article from 2011

Changes to OnStar's Privacy Terms Rile Some Users

Under the new terms, the General Motors-supported connectivity system would reserve the right to share or sell data collected from subscribers and some canceled subscribers as well.

wheels.blogs.nytimes.com

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[EdP]

clearly you've ignored part of the sentence, which says any NON-Service provider, which means the service providers, like the ones noted in the T&C and explictly defined are included and will get data. I've addressed this in my initial post.

Clearly you've ignored
will never provide your personal information

 

[sting70r]

Clearly you've ignored
will never provide your personal information

I see that you may not be too familar with legal contracts. I'll quote the text again from the terms & conditions document.
Read the phrasing carefully, as a lawyer would. The relevant legal phrases are highlited in various colors and bolded below.

We use the information we collect from you or occupants of your Vehicle to: deliver the Connected Services to you, manage your Connected Services account, improve occupant and vehicle safety, analysis and research purposes, improve your Connected Services experience at our dealers, provide service notifications/alerts, participate in government subsidy or incentive programs that benefit you or HMA directly or indirectly, and enhance your overall ownership experience. We will not sell, trade, or rent your personal information to others without your authorization consistent with the terms of this agreement. We share certain information collected from the Connected Services with our dealers to assist in performing service diagnosis and repair and to improve your customer experience. We share the information we collect with Service Providers for purposes of providing the Connected Services and maintaining your account. We may also share information as necessary with third parties for analysis and research purposes, including our Usage Based Insurace providers (e.g., Verisk) and data analytics partners. As part of the Usage Based Insurance program, anonymized driving data will be available to other third parties for analysis, but will never provide your personal information to any non-Service Provider participants in the program without your additional express consent. All Service Providers or third parties are contractually obligated to keep your information confidential if it is identifiable to you and use such information only as we specify.

Connected Services Agreement Terms and Conditions | MyGenesis

View the Genesis Connected Services Agreement Terms and Conditions

owners.genesis.com

Above you'll see they note they will share the information they collect (location speed, time etc etc from the prior paragraph) with Service Providers.
"Service Provider" here is a grouping of parties. In the first Section (1.) there's a reference to everyone that can be deemed a "Service Provider"

SERVICE REQUIREMENTS AND SERVICE PROVIDERS. Your Hyundai or Genesis vehicle, (“Vehicle”) must come with an authorized Hyundai Blue Link or Genesis Connected Services telematics system ("Connected Services System"), which is the equipment, including hardware and software, used to provide Connected Services to your Vehicle. Additionally you must have an active Connected Services subscription to receive the Connected Services. Connected Services are provided to you by Hyundai, through its authorized connected vehicle services providers. Hyundai or its Vendors in turn may interact with and/or engage one or more third party providers as necessary to provide the Connected Services. Those third party providers include any person, company, or entity who provides any service, equipment, or facilities in connection with the Connected Services or the Connected Services System, including, but not limited to, wireless service providers, underlying wireless carriers, suppliers, licensors, public safety answering points, emergency responders and other service providers (such as police, fire and ambulance), towing companies, auto makers, distributors and dealers. Such third party providers, including Vendors, are referred to in this Agreement as “Service Provider(s)”. In addition, Intouch or Sirius XM may receive and respond to your requests for Connected Services Service through an automated operator or through specially trained Connected Services personnel (“Connected Services Agents”).

So everything in purple, which can pretty much include anything or everyone Hyundai/Geneisis choses, are considered Service Providers.
So everyone in the purple text, will get access to your personal data -- per the blue text above.

Also, the blue + red text above, they make a point to call out companies that will receive data that are NOT service providers -- specifically "We may also share information as necessary with third parties for analysis and research purposes, including our Usage Based Insurace providers (e.g., Verisk) and data analytics partners" This makes it clear that this data sharing is not to provide the Connected Service and this is a 3rd party that Hyundai/Gensis is opting to share data with for their own gain.

Now getting to your point about 'non-service provider won't get your personal data...

This is fragment of a standalone sentence -- describing part of the Usage Based Insurance program, specifically -- " As part of the Usage Based Insurance program, anonymized driving data will be available to other third parties for analysis, but will never provide your personal information to any non-Service Provider participants in the program without your additional express consent. "

So... reading the entire section, Service Providers + third parties, including Usage Based Insurance Providers + data analytics partners will all receive your personal information. The Usage Based Insurance program allows 3rd parties to get access to "anonymized driving data". This "never provide your personal information" is a smoke-screen... vendors who are part of the Usage Based Insurance program who are NOT a service provider will not receive your personal data. This is such an insignificant group of users, that this sentence is meaningless, really.


TL;DR: you've inadverently picked a fragment of a sentence, taken it out of legal context and incorrectly interpreted its meaning and the security it provides. This is the kinda' stuff lawyers like too -- they prefer hiding things in plain sight by making it confusing to interpret.

 

[TinsleyC]

Taken from this document -

https://www.verisk.com/siteassets/media/downloads/telematics/data-exchange/verisk-telematics-data-exchange-prepares-for-september-launch.pdf

"In the ensuing years, GM has worked to provide data, with its customers’ permission, to a number of insurers, including State Farm, Progressive and Liberty Mutual."

That's regarding OnStar, and how they have already been providing data to certain insurance companies.

Point here is that if the insurance company signs up to the Verisk system, they are now a partner, and can get specific car owner/driver data. We have already agreed to allow it through agreeing to use the Connected Services system.

State Farm may already get it. I'll ask my agent when I get time.

 

[Mcc]

Genesis doesn't need to know who your insurance company is. If you're read the link PR link Hyundai/Genesis shares your data with VERISK as they agreed to "join the Verisk Data Exchange™". The Verisk Data Exchange allows VERISK to share your driving behavior and score to insurance companies that are their clients, who are also part of the Verisk Exchange

I am not so sure you are correct here. Genesis says “We may also share information as necessary with third parties for analysis and research purposes, including our Usage Based Insurace providers (e.g., Verisk) and data analytics partners. As part of the Usage Based Insurance program, anonymized driving data will be available to other third parties for analysis, but will never provide your personal information to any non-Service Provider participants in the program without your additional express consent. All Service Providers or third parties are contractually obligated to keep your information confidential if it is identifiable to you and use such information only as we specify. We may also disclose information to individuals designated by you to be contacted in an emergency.”
So Genesis provides data to Verisk but it is anonymized. Where is the problem?

 

[EdP]

Taken from this document -

http://[URL][URL]https://www.verisk...ta-exchange-prepares-for-september-launch.pdf

[/URL][/URL]

"In the ensuing years, GM has worked to provide data, with its customers’ permission, to a number of insurers, including State Farm, Progressive and Liberty Mutual."

That's regarding OnStar, and how they have already been providing data to certain insurance companies.

Point here is that if the insurance company signs up to the Verisk system, they are now a partner, and can get specific car owner/driver data. We have already agreed to allow it through agreeing to use the Connected Services system.

State Farm may already get it. I'll ask my agent when I get time.

with its customers’ permission

Did you give permission? No. Until they ask you and you consent they don't know who you ar

 

[Mr. Incredible]

Taken from this document -

http://[URL]https://www.verisk.com/...ta-exchange-prepares-for-september-launch.pdf

[/URL]

"In the ensuing years, GM has worked to provide data, with its customers’ permission, to a number of insurers, including State Farm, Progressive and Liberty Mutual."

That's regarding OnStar, and how they have already been providing data to certain insurance companies.

Point here is that if the insurance company signs up to the Verisk system, they are now a partner, and can get specific car owner/driver data. We have already agreed to allow it through agreeing to use the Connected Services system.

State Farm may already get it. I'll ask my agent when I get time.

State Farm already pulls the data from genesis, I have been on the drive safe and save program for several years, essentially getting an extra discount for driving under 12k a year. I used to have to report my mileage to state farm by taking a picture of the odometer with their app Every 3 months, I haven’t done it for nearly a year and when I got my renewal I noticed the pre-calculated mileage on the documents, I called my agent and he said we now pull and verify mileage from several sources, if you are subscribed to a connection system through The vehicle manufacturer we get it from them, otherwise we get it from carfax or your dealerships system electronically when you have service done.

i asked, so what if I do the service myself, and he said then they guesstimate based of previous driving history and show it on the renewal if it is wrong (too much) it is up to me to alert them and show proof.

doesn’t bother me as it saves me $600 a year, and I had given permission when I had onstar for this so I’m guessing the permission was maintained through the new vehicle and their connected services.

 

[sting70r]

My other posts are being held for moderation. Likely due to links included in the post.

I am not so sure you are correct here. Genesis says “We may also share information as necessary with third parties for analysis and research purposes, including our Usage Based Insurace providers (e.g., Verisk) and data analytics partners. As part of the Usage Based Insurance program, anonymized driving data will be available to other third parties for analysis, but will never provide your personal information to any non-Service Provider participants in the program without your additional express consent. All Service Providers or third parties are contractually obligated to keep your information confidential if it is identifiable to you and use such information only as we specify. We may also disclose information to individuals designated by you to be contacted in an emergency.”
So Genesis provides data to Verisk but it is anonymized. Where is the problem?

The anonymized piece applies only to other 3rd parties, not Verisk -- they're describing how your data may be used once shared with the Usage Based Insurance program.
> anonymized driving data will be available to other third parties for analysis
The previous, independent statement in the T&C refers to Verisk.

with its customers’ permission

Did you give permission? No. Until they ask you and you consent they don't know who you ar

This is false. What you've found in the doc is Verisk's document saying that the data they get from their partners is 'opt-in' customer data.
You give Genesis/Hyundai consent to everything in the Terms & Conditions document to use the Connected Service. The T&C document is giving Hyundai/Genesis consent for data-collection and data-sharing with Service Providers & companies like Verisk... as noted in my prior post that's pending approval.

I used to have to report my mileage to state farm by taking a picture of the odometer with their app Every 3 months, I haven’t done it for nearly a year and when I got my renewal I noticed the pre-calculated mileage on the documents, I called my agent and he said we now pull and verify mileage from several sources

this isn't just your mileage data. This is how you drive your car, where you go, how you drive to get there, your speed on trips, etc.
the data they collect here won't be available to your agent. This is "big-data" that'll be ingested by data-analytics software to calculate risk and build a model for you as an individual (for insurance + other purposes).

>The Verisk Driving Score, which is validated on our growing database of millions of cars, can outperform traditional proxies for risk, including credit score. It’s a smart way to sharpen rating, identify safer drivers, and serve these customers better based on driving data. The score is flexible and portable, allowing premium adjustments based on driving behavior and enabling insurers to understand potential and existing customers’ driving behavior

verisk .com/insurance/products/telematics/personal-auto-solutions/

 

[Mcc]

We clearly differ in our interpretation of the Genesis doc. BTW whatever is in the Verisk doc in irrelevant. It’s the Genesis that my contract is with Genesis says:
1. Usage Based Insurace providers (e.g., Verisk)
2. As part of the Usage Based Insurance program, anonymized driving data will be available to other third parties for analysis, but will never provide your personal information to any non-Service Provider participants in the program without your additional express consent.

Pointless to discuss this back and forth here. We disagree.

 

[Beefer]

Who cares at the end of the day. All data is mined.

If anyone wanted to come after me...they would have to prove who was driving the car.

 

[EdP]

The anonymized piece applies only to other 3rd parties, not Verisk -- they're describing how your data may be used once shared with the Usage Based Insurance program.
> anonymized driving data will be available to other third parties for analysis
The previous, independent statement in the T&C refers to Verisk.



This is false. What you've found in the doc is Verisk's document saying that the data they get from their partners is 'opt-in' customer data.
You give Genesis/Hyundai consent to everything in the Terms & Conditions document to use the Connected Service. The T&C document is giving Hyundai/Genesis consent for data-collection and data-sharing with Service Providers & companies like Verisk... as noted in my prior post that's pending approval.

It is what YOU posted from the Genesis Connected services.

I give up. I really don't care what they do with it and I'm not giving consent so they don't have my indivdial information attributed to me personally.