Got The Cold Start Shake Rattle And Roll This Morning YEIKS!

[TexasGenesis4.6]

Please forgive me for being a doubter. Picked up the car the next day and low and behold if the accelerator delay wasn't gone after they replaced the throttle body and reprogrammed the ecu (I assume they only gave it the 10-FL-015 update). No delay and I'm quite happy.

 

[cgrudich]

I had the dreaded shakes last night and this morning. Yesterday morning my wife simply backs the car out of the garage and parks it in the driveway. Later that evening I start the car to pull it back in the garage and the Tau shakes and knocks like a diesel engine. I had read about this issue in the past so I think I know the problem from what previous owners have described. I started the car this morning and same issue. Smoke out the back, knocking and shaking. I drove the vehicle and it ran fine and when I started it again it has no issues. The check engine light is still on. Is there a fix for this or is the dealer going to simply clear the codes and send me on my way.

 

[redixon]

Your series of events is the very exact thing that happened to my '10 Genesis.

My dealer skirts the problem with a myriad of possibilities. I have to believe that these engines are being damaged when this occurs but they quickly deny that possibility. All they did on mine was clear the codes. No fixes tried.

I am now starting to have what I will call accelerator lag. Press the gas pedal and for a split second nothing happens. Also memory issues on the seat, mirror, steering wheel settings. Last week the control for raising and lowering the steering wheel stopped working.

We have driven Mercedes and Acura RL's for the past few years. I think I have made a mistake by purchasing this vehicle. Probably won't keep it although we do like the car.

 

[cgrudich]

I called the dealer and they acknowledged the issue. They are busy with this issue and can't get the car in until next Monday. They stated it was fine to drive the car in the meantime. The car has ran fine since the first sign of the problem. I will post an update after I visit the dealer.

 

[cgrudich]

I just returned from the dealer and they acknowledged the problem. The car coded four different codes labeled “Misfire Detect”. The solution was they did a reprogram. The reprogram was stated on the invoice “PCM per 10 – fl – 015 39110F3R – 0.3 – 69/40. I don’t know what if anything that means but supposedly that is the fix. This was serviced under warranty at no charge. Hopefully this fixes the issue.

 

[redixon]

It happened again. Same scenario. Backed the car out of the garage to sweep out the garage, left it sitting for about 15 minutes then put it back in the garage.

The next morning my wife started the car and engine ran very rough, check engine light came on and lots of black smoke out exhaust. No dieseling noise or loud knocking this time. Lot of valve clatter or lifter noise.

Took the car in to dealer: No code stored on Check Engine light(sounds strange), no issues found, added injector cleaner to fuel tank, sent me on my way. Not very impressed with them.

I believe that this situation can be duplicated and I am going to try to do it. I think the problem lies with the fuel injection system and am convinced that something is related to the car running for less than a minute and being shut off then being started again and run for less than a minute. For all of the black smoke the engine had to be running rich which leads me to believe that fuel is filling the cylinders, flushing out the oil, and on start up creating all of the noise and smoke. The heavy knocking that sometimes occours is probably created by having the cylinders with excess fuel creating a hydraulic issue until the fuel is burned off. Additionally the lubrication would be washed off with the excess fuel.

Let you know if I can duplicate it.

 

[TexasGenesis4.6]

I had the dreaded shakes last night and this morning. Yesterday morning my wife simply backs the car out of the garage and parks it in the driveway. Later that evening I start the car to pull it back in the garage and the Tau shakes and knocks like a diesel engine. I had read about this issue in the past so I think I know the problem from what previous owners have described. I started the car this morning and same issue. Smoke out the back, knocking and shaking. I drove the vehicle and it ran fine and when I started it again it has no issues. The check engine light is still on. Is there a fix for this or is the dealer going to simply clear the codes and send me on my way.

Mine did it again. Sometimes, not all the time, my car does the same thing. Later in the evening I put it in the garage. Now, I ALWAYS let the car come back down to idle after the choke/warm-up finishes. My driveway has a pretty severe slope. I wonder if that could have anything to do with it. However, mine shakes in the morning after it has sat in the flat garage over night. Putting it back in the shop tomorrow.

 

[timc1475]

Mine did it again. Sometimes, not all the time, my car does the same thing. Later in the evening I put it in the garage. Now, I ALWAYS let the car come back down to idle after the choke/warm-up finishes. My driveway has a pretty severe slope. I wonder if that could have anything to do with it. However, mine shakes in the morning after it has sat in the flat garage over night. Putting it back in the shop tomorrow.

Keep us updated, curious as a cat we are...

 

[TexasGenesis4.6]

Yea! I think they've actually figured it out. I haven't picked the car up yet, but they are saying that of the 5 computers that basically run the car, 1 of them was glitching, or something like that. They reloaded the software/firmware and it cleared everything up immediately. I hope this is the permanent fix for the issue.

 

[batch]

That's great news. Thanks for posting. Can you find out which computer they updated? And let us know if it really is a permanent fix after you have the car at home?

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[redixon]

Big Update

In November '10 my wife's 2010 Genesis 4.6 started up sounding like a diesel engine. That was followed by two more occasions of rough starts with black smoke and check engine light flashing. No knocking on either of these two issues. I made a post referencing that and subsequent posts showing lack of solutions by my dealer.

The car has started making top end noise (sounds like lifters or pushrods) and is blowing blue smoke after being driven for 1/2 hour or so. I went back to the dealer with this issue and found that a new service manager was in place having been moved from another location. He has 10+ years with Hyundai. He has a vast knowledge about engines. I gave them copies of this forum. They were not aware of it.

He had a factory rep come up to talk with us about my car. He has talked to a Hyundai engineer and is starting check out procedures suggested by him on the car. The dieseling sound was most likely the results of a phenemenon called Hydra Lock. Gasoline, a fluid, sitting on top of the cylinder which cannot be compressed thus forcing the cylinder back down before reaching top dead center. That created all of the diesel like rattling in the lower case. How the gas got there is still a mystery but obviously several injecters leaked. The resulting damage C O U L D be (Not Sure Yet) slightly bent rods, damaged pushrods, damaged cam lobes, damaged lifters, and assorted bearings for these parts including the Crankshaft. The rings were certainly washed which could account for the blue smoke (oil smoke) after the car is driven. It is also possible that no damage was done although not likely.

They have removed all of the belts on the car in an effort to ensure the noise being heard is not from any of the accessories. They are doing a top end check on cylinder integrity by doing a compression test on each cylinder. Being a new engine any cylinder variation of 10% or more from the highest cylinder pressure reading would be a red flag. They should all test about the same. A variance of 20-25% would almost surely indicate a damaged rod. This test will be followed by a leak test on each cylinder to determine the amount of time for the pressure to leak off. There is some discussion of pulling the heads if the top end noise is confirmed to be coming from the engine. I am 99.9% sure that it is. This is going to be a long process so I will update the forum as it goes on.

So if your cars made the dieseling sound you might have serious problems. If it was just rough start with misfire codes probably not. But what about the next time. They have to find out what is causing this problem. Perhaps we are on the way to a solution.

This web site will give a little more information on the issue http://www.chicagoengines.com/tech/bulletins/Engine-Hydraulic-Lock.htm

 

[mikec]

For those reading redixon's latest post: the tests the techs are doing are the right/correct diagnostic tests. Those are fairly simple tests to do and yet are quite good at diagnosing real mechanical damage to an engine. Short of using a boroscope (small video camera on a flexible stick) through the spark plug holes and from the oil pan - up into the crankshaft & connecting rod area - these are the best tests that can be done without tearing the engine apart. Reading redixon's post, the dealer and factory rep are doing the right things to investigate the problem - this is certainly not a "it's running okay now so there probably was no damage" blow-off.

The only damage the compression and cylinder leak-down tests may not really capture is minor scoring to the cylinder walls that may have resulted from the gas washing oil off the cylinder walls and piston rings. That'd take either a GOOD boroscope examination (i.e. not just poking the camera in there and looking... but MOVING the camera in a 360 degree circle while the piston was at the very bottom of its travel... that means manually turning the engine crankshaft a bit each time a different cylinder/piston is examined) or it'd require removing the cylinder heads and eyeballing the cylinder walls directly.

I'm curious for the results too. And how Hyundai handles whatever is found and if it grows into a TSB that other folks experiencing the rough start-up can point to and say "check my engine for this damage."

mike c.

 

[redixon]

Great thought on the borescope MikeC.


I am familiar with that tool but it never crossed my mind while I was talking with the service manager. I am going to suggest that to him

There has been some conversation about pulling the heads which he says is the only way to see the timing chains. That doesn't sound like good engineering but he said after looking at the schematic of the engine he understood why it was necessary to pull the heads. At any point if they pull the heads they will have visual access to all of the top end.

You are correct......so far no blow off. They have had the car since Thursday 7/21. I am still wary though.

 

[batch]

How the gas got there is still a mystery but obviously several injecters leaked

While I would like to know extent of damage and I am very happy to see redixon get service he deserves. I am more interested in seeing significant focus on root cause to prevent it from ever happening.

Going w/ the leaky injector theory, I would rather replace injectors w/ newer version (and possibly remap ecu). Fixing the cause will be money well spent even if comes from my own pocket vs. having to fight to get an engine overhaul.

Spoken as a seriously interested future owner. I would like to see Hyundai take this back to engineers for diagnosis/fix.

I assume the DI injectors on 5.0 and 3.8 are different from the 4.6 so this issue might not be a problem on DI engines? If it is the injectors not sealing which I haven't heard of before but then I'm a young 35. I'm not ruling out another cause.

 

[redixon]

Follow Up Post

I have the attention of a lot of people at Hyundai at several different locations and levels. Hopefully the copy of the forum I gave to the local service manager and the Factory Service Rep will get into the hands of the engineers and will result in a complete solution for all involved.

I had a call from my local Hyundai service manager late this afternoon. He has had my car since 07/21 and has been doing a lot of recommended trouble shooting required by the Hyundai engineer assigned to my car. Most of the test eliminated minor causes for the problems the car was having. They finished those this morning and moved on to test for more serious issues.

Hyundai expects these engines to have compressions in the 150 range with a minimum of 136 as the lowest acceptable number. The compression test on my car revealed pressures in the mid 170's on all cylinders except two. Number one cylinder had 126 while number 8 had 196. I have no clue as to why six of the cylinders are higher than the recommended compression range and do not understand if there is a correlation between Cylinder 1 and Cylinder 8 in reference to the Crank Shaft. I am told that number 1 is on the front right while number 8 is on the left rear. These results were reported to the engineer who then required a leak test be done.

Number 1 cylinder lost 45% in less than 4 minutes. Removing the Oil Filler Cap revealed the leak going into the crank case. The other cylinders stabilized at a 4% loss.

The local service manager is going to contact the engineer tomorrow and will request an engine replacement and suggest that my engine be taken to research to see what all happened to it. He believes that there is probably bottom end damage to the engine.

Based on Hyundai's policy of customer satisfaction and because this is a Genesis 4.6 I suspect that Hyundai will agree to do this procedure....I will keep the forum updated.

 

[homeofstone]

Follow Up Post

I have the attention of a lot of people at Hyundai at several different locations and levels. Hopefully the copy of the forum I gave to the local service manager and the Factory Service Rep will get into the hands of the engineers and will result in a complete solution for all involved.

I had a call from my local Hyundai service manager late this afternoon. He has had my car since 07/21 and has been doing a lot of recommended trouble shooting required by the Hyundai engineer assigned to my car. Most of the test eliminated minor causes for the problems the car was having. They finished those this morning and moved on to test for more serious issues.

Hyundai expects these engines to have compressions in the 150 range with a minimum of 136 as the lowest acceptable number. The compression test on my car revealed pressures in the mid 170's on all cylinders except two. Number one cylinder had 126 while number 8 had 196. I have no clue as to why six of the cylinders are higher than the recommended compression range and do not understand if there is a correlation between Cylinder 1 and Cylinder 8 in reference to the Crank Shaft. I am told that number 1 is on the front right while number 8 is on the left rear. These results were reported to the engineer who then required a leak test be done.

Number 1 cylinder lost 45% in less than 4 minutes. Removing the Oil Filler Cap revealed the leak going into the crank case. The other cylinders stabilized at a 4% loss.

The local service manager is going to contact the engineer tomorrow and will request an engine replacement and suggest that my engine be taken to research to see what all happened to it. He believes that there is probably bottom end damage to the engine.

Based on Hyundai's policy of customer satisfaction and because this is a Genesis 4.6 I suspect that Hyundai will agree to do this procedure....I will keep the forum updated.

A new engine is what Hyundai should do. I had a new 1989 Mazda 929 (what a great car) and with about 8000 miles on it the engine developed a bottom end knock. Mazda supplied a new engine and in a week my car was like new again. Never had another probelm with the car and repalced it with a new 1993 Mazda 929. My point is that sometimes a bad engine slips through inspections.

 

[redixon]

Another Update

I met with the local Service Manager this afternoon. The Hyundai engineer agreed with his assesment.

A new engine has been ordered for the Genesis and will arrive this coming Wednesday. It will be installed this coming week and some "drive outs" will be required before releasing the car back to my wife.

Remaining issue is that my wife's car will have a new engine but still no solution as to the cause of the "Shake Rattle and Roll". The engine from my wife's car is supposed to go to research for disassembly, perhaps that will give some insight.

I hope that you folks with problems have a Service Manager who is as conscientious as the new manager was for me. He restored my initial belief that this is a good car and Hyundai is a company who is customer oriented and is determined to put out a good product.

Because of him I have been looking at the new 5.0 coming out. It has a different injection system and I will probably trade the '10 in on a '12 R Spec.

If my local dealer was an Equus dealer as well that is the car I would buy. Unfortunately the closest Equus dealer is 125 miles away.

 

[batch]

Thanks for posting redixon! Very glad to hear you're getting a new engine. I personally love hearing about great service.

Especially glad engine is headed for diagnosis. Hoping they'll share results from research.

 

[batch]

Just for reference. Roll-up List of GenesisOwners members from this thread experiencing issue. That's 14 Gennies and 1 Borrego (more Borrego's on their forum) out of our subsection of the total Genesis population.

Started the Borrego this morning and while starting it made a strange sound then the fun began sounded like it was running on 4 of its 8 cylinders and was shaking and bucking all the while the check engine lamp was flashing away like a beacon of distress then all of a sudden it just leveled out and everything was fine again. Looks like a trip to the dealer in order. Funny thing the day before when I started it it started just fine but let out a HUGE cloud of smoke!

This has happened to me a three times on cold start-up after sitting for 24 hours. The first time the "check engine" light was flashing and seemed like a bank of cylinders were not firing. I had it towed to the dealer. It threw an engine code that said a random mis-fire.

The second time the "check engine" light came on, but did not flash. The dealer called the tech line who said to check the fuel and it came back as bad gas.

The third time was this past weekend, but no "check engine" light came.

In every case, the engine clears up in a minute or two.

Has anyone had this again lately? I had the same symptoms several times. It's at the dealer now and they're looking in to it. The check engine light was on and according to the dealer the computer indicated misfire. 2009 4.6 with about 20k miles. Thanks!

Holy sh$t this happened to my Genesis this morning. 16K miles and it has run great every day. Started it this morning and it was clearly not firing on all cylinders, engine light started blinking and bad smell from exhaust. Shut it down and restarted - same thing! Call the assistance number to get it towed to the dealer tonight.

Had this happen after doing my last oil change a week ago. Started car twice for less than a minute, then let it sit till morning. Upon startup in the AM got all the valve train noise, etc. Disconnected the batt, reset the ecu, all is well.
Thanks to this site for providing info on this in a number of posts!

This just happened to me for the first time. I shut the car off for about 10 seconds and started back up fine. The engine was jumping and the engine light was flashing. I've got 25K on the Genesis.

You can add me to the list. I exsperienced the same problem just a few days ago. The car is running fine now. I took it to the dealer and you pretty much know what happened. The problem could not be duplicated and everything checked out ok , no fail codes in the data base.
I wonder if we will see a recall in the future for the bad engine start, tilt telescopic steering problem and map update? All cars have their share of problems so I am not overly concerned but Hyundai needs to get a handle on this if they want to be a contender in the market they are entering with the Genesis and Equus.

Notice decreased performance/power and bit noiser engine couple of weeks ago (with onset of cold weather) but thought it was my imagination.

Yesterday rapid banging noise from engine and check engine light constantly on. No bad exhaust, no shaking of body. Turning on/off did not help. Got car towed to dealer, was told computer "registered misfires". Dealer upgrading "engine computer software".

My wife's car, a 2010 Genesis 4.6 just had a similar problem. It had sat for 5 days and when started the engine sounded like it was coming apart. Deep knocking similar to rods and extremely loud. Shut off and restarted same thing. After about 20 seconds began to quiet down. Had vehicle transported to dealer and made same noise when started. Preliminary diagnosis was fuel flooding cylinders flushing out residual oil. Checking oil for fuel and I am having oil analysis done to look for ferrous and other metalic particles. Car has 17,100 miles. Not a happy camper right now. It is hard to believe that damage was not done to the engine as loud as the noise was.

Was away for 15 days and started car this morning. Yes it has been cold here. Major noise like an old diesel starting up,

Took it to a dealer it showed 2 codes, P0300 and P0305 both indicate a misfire.

They have no idea why. They cleared the codes and I went home.

Mine did this last week. I had not started it in 5 days and it was fairly cool outside (40 degrees). Heard a loud pop, black smoke poured out the tailpipe, engine shook like it was running on fewer cylinders and the engine light blinked. Smelled a little like burnt rubber. Let it run for about 15 seconds and turned it off. Looked under the hood - nothing. Restarted - ran perfect and no problems since.

Took it to my dealer the next day and he played dumb. Said he never heard of this and they are a big Dallas dealer. I've had this same problem with this dealer - always plays dumb when I mention something (first time I took it in for the common problem of the tilt not going up he played dumb - next time he admitted they were seeing the problem). I remembered seeing this thread. With this many people on this small forum, it's obviously a problem.

Well Add me to the list (maybe)... started the car to move it Christmas eve,
(started it, warmed for 90 seconds.. moved it 15 ft).. then next morning started and it sounded really really rough... check engine light blinked on/off

shutdown, restarted 10 minutes later, started fine. check engine was on (not blinking).... scheduled service for Monday.. Today I had to use it, started, check engine light is not on...

I do think the rough start was a result of the quick run in cold temps (15 degrees) followed by a long sit (12 hours)...

I will see what the dealer says tomorrow. but I don't understand why the code would clear by itself.. this does not seem like a good design.

I have a 2010 Genesis 4.6, and just experienced the dreaded Shake Rattle and Role. It coded as P0303 and was reproducible and did not self correct. I took it t at 13,700 miles. I took it to the dealer and they performed the TSB 10-FL-015 ECU update with their usual professionalism (this isn't the first problem I've had with this car). I picked it back up tonight and the engine light is now off but it does idle "differently" than before - noisier, slightly rough.
I will post an update in a week or so on whether this ECU fix has worked. Given the severity of the shake rattle and roll symptoms, I share the concern from an earlier post that this is not a trivial, one-off problem that leaves your Tau unscarred.

Well, mine happened this morning. Drove it straight to the dealer with the check engine light still on (I only live 5 mins from dealer). They told me the only codes it was throwing was that throttle body sensor was bad. They said they would replace the sensor, and do a customary ecu update and the combo would take about an hour. 45 minutes later svc. mgr. came out and told me they were having "complications" and that they would give me a loaner car and call me later. They called me back later in the day to tell me they were replacing the entire throttle body.

Now I'm no genius, but it sounds like they are replacing a mountain instead of a molehill. It sounded like they didn't really know exactly what the repair plan was and decided to replace the whole unit since Hyundai would cover it under warranty. I'm at 13,700 miles. This scares me a little, that and the fact that the shop doesn't have a single person over 40 in the repair bay.

I had the dreaded shakes last night and this morning. Yesterday morning my wife simply backs the car out of the garage and parks it in the driveway. Later that evening I start the car to pull it back in the garage and the Tau shakes and knocks like a diesel engine. I had read about this issue in the past so I think I know the problem from what previous owners have described. I started the car this morning and same issue. Smoke out the back, knocking and shaking. I drove the vehicle and it ran fine and when I started it again it has no issues. The check engine light is still on. Is there a fix for this or is the dealer going to simply clear the codes and send me on my way.

 

[redixon]

My wife got her Genesis back with a new engine installed. After driving a loaner for almost a month she is happy to be back in her car.

The new engine is performing as one would expect. I still believe the underlying problem still exists since no changes were made to the injection system. As a result I will replace this vehicle when the 5.0 is available.

I would strongly suggest that all of you who had the dieseling noise in your vehicle or those of you hearing a lot of top end noise go to your dealer and ask for a compression and leak test to be done on your cylinders. The odds are you had damage done to the engine which did not cause immediate failure but will manifest itself later, maybe out of warranty. Take a copy of this forum to your service manager for his review.

Good Luck to everyone. I will continue to monitor the forum.