HDA1 vs HDA2 for US GV60

[NLJ]

I was off by an order of magnitude. It seems it’s ten-fold.

“The shortage is thought to have been exacerbated by the move to electric vehicles. For example, a Ford Focus typically uses roughly 300 chips, whereas one of Ford’s new electric vehicles can have up to 3,000 chips."

Good time to get into the semiconductor industry or stocks!

 

[PythonNF]

I was off by an order of magnitude. It seems it’s ten-fold.

“The shortage is thought to have been exacerbated by the move to electric vehicles. For example, a Ford Focus typically uses roughly 300 chips, whereas one of Ford’s new electric vehicles can have up to 3,000 chips."

You're comparing a basic car like a Focus to a vehicle with a full suite of safety and other technology, there's bound to be many more chips. If you compare ICE vehicles to electric vehicles with equivalent features, the difference will be much less, if any.

 

[NLJ]

You're comparing a basic car like a Focus to a vehicle with a full suite of safety and other technology, there's bound to be many more chips. If you compare ICE vehicles to electric vehicles with equivalent features, the difference will be much less, if any.

I think regardless, an EV is basically a computer on wheels.
Hopefully we get out of this predicament soon.

 

[ohnoyuji]

I think regardless, an EV is basically a computer on wheels.
Hopefully we get out of this predicament soon.

Why? An regular gas car doesn't need spark timing adjustments? It doesn't adjust itself, the ecu does. An EV actually has fewer moving parts. Mechanical wise, instead of controlling fuel flow(whereas they have also control module) they are also made with chips. It's also the trend that everyone is moving with big LCD infotainment, dash. They adds a lot more requiremenrs.

 

[NLJ]

Why? An regular gas car doesn't need spark timing adjustments? It doesn't adjust itself, the ecu does. An EV actually has fewer moving parts. Mechanical wise, instead of controlling fuel flow(whereas they have also control module) they are also made with chips. It's also the trend that everyone is moving with big LCD infotainment, dash. They adds a lot more requiremenrs.

Not sure what point you're trying to make here. If you believe that an ICE vehicle uses the same amount of microchips, then good for you!

 

[Looney100]

Not sure what point you're trying to make here. If you believe that an ICE vehicle uses the same amount of microchips, then good for you!

I suspect the battery/temperature/charge management required of EVs is no small computing feat.

 

[mc137]

I suspect the battery/temperature/charge management required of EVs is no small computing feat.

No doubt EVs consume many more chips (maybe as much as an order of magnitude more). The supply chain issues are not necessarily about the chip production volume though, as I'm sure we all know.

Re: battery and charge management, the compute capacity of EVs is certainly greater, but these kinds of capacities are mostly software. Of course there are different valves and controllers (switches) to manage the system and probably a few more sensors in total, but overall these systems are not so complicated from a hardware perspective.

I guess the main source of a need for more chips overall is in the newer higher-end ICE and EV advanced ADAS systems. Those require more sensors, and more sophisticated sensors, and controllers. Designs that are older are less integrated will need more low-end chips for the usual things - power windows, seat adjustments, etc. because there is, in effect, several distinct systems (connected to buttons) that 'compute' the signals to adjust the seat etc.

So the kinds of chips and the variety of chips needed to complete a car varies greatly by model and trim features. The availability of chips is also complicated. Chip manufacturers make much less money for the old types of chips and want to use capacity to make higher-margin chips. Higher end and specialized chips (think radars, etc.) are also competing with other manufacturers making expensive systems (robotics, medical, military, ...)

One supply chain advantage for Tesla is their design is more integrated and directly controlled by a central computer. Also, they just don't bother with a lot of features many might want - like an instrument cluster, HUD, lidar, ...

 

[GenCoupeguy]

It's an awful lot of money to be missing, probably just temporarily, so many modern safety features.

The thing is, right now the car qualifies for the $7.5K Federal rebate. Waiting for HDA2 could very well cost you $7.5K. Do you want it that badly?

 

[mc137]

It's an awful lot of money to be missing, probably just temporarily, so many modern safety features.

The thing is, right now the car qualifies for the $7.5K Federal rebate. Waiting for HDA2 could very well cost you $7.5K. Do you want it that badly?

The $7.5K Fed rebate (US) is not going away for Genesis.

 

[GenCoupeguy]

The $7.5K Fed rebate (US) is not going away for Genesis.

Could you explain this? This particular tidbit is quite important to me. How does one make certain that they are not 200,001 delivery and don't get the credit where the guy that registered his hours earlier does?

Do you mean that it'll take years for Genesis to reach the 200K mark?

Does the government count Hyundai/ Kia/ Genesis all as separate entities all having their own 200K limit?

Thanks for any input you can provide on this.

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[mc137]

Could you explain this? This particular tidbit is quite important to me. How does one make certain that they are not 200,001 delivery and don't get the credit where the guy that registered his hours earlier does?

Do you mean that it'll take years for Genesis to reach the 200K mark?

Does the government count Hyundai/ Kia/ Genesis all as separate entities all having their own 200K limit?

Thanks for any input you can provide on this.

Kia and Hyundai are certainly handled separately.

Hyundai and Genesis might be counted together, but in any case it would be a couple of years to reach the 200K threshold where the incentive phase out begins.

In any case, the incentive reduction is not a cliff. Reaching the 200K threshold starts the phase out. There is no change for 1 Q after the quarter in which the threshold is breached. Then it is 50% for another 2 quarters. I think the political window for new legislation that might change the EV incentives has closed.

 

[jowo]

Could you explain this? This particular tidbit is quite important to me. How does one make certain that they are not 200,001 delivery and don't get the credit where the guy that registered his hours earlier does?

For reference, here's the EV credit tracker as of the end of June 2020 (Hyundai had sold about 16k PHEV/EVs counting towards the credit):

Federal EV Tax Credit Phase Out Tracker By Automaker | EVAdoption

evadoption.com

and in 2022, they've sold ~9k Ioniq 5s so far:

2024 Hyundai Ioniq 5 Sales Figures

Hyundai Ioniq 5 monthly, quarterly, and yearly sales and statistics in the United States. Including data and interactive charts for the latest model year 2024.

carfigures.com

Let's assume they sold another 10k between June 2020 and Dec 2021 - that would put them at about 35k/200k for the credit phase out. So a very, very long way to go.

 

[Looney100]

For reference, here's the EV credit tracker as of the end of June 2020 (Hyundai had sold about 16k PHEV/EVs counting towards the credit):

Federal EV Tax Credit Phase Out Tracker By Automaker | EVAdoption

evadoption.com

and in 2022, they've sold ~9k Ioniq 5s so far:

2024 Hyundai Ioniq 5 Sales Figures

Hyundai Ioniq 5 monthly, quarterly, and yearly sales and statistics in the United States. Including data and interactive charts for the latest model year 2024.

carfigures.com

Let's assume they sold another 10k between June 2020 and Dec 2021 - that would put them at about 35k/200k for the credit phase out. So a very, very long way to go.

Interesting. It says the separations are defined as per the IRS, so it seems it may be driven by legal/filing entity. With GM #2 on the list one might think they'd try to separate their various brands.

 

[jowo]

Interesting. It says the separations are defined as per the IRS, so it seems it may be driven by legal/filing entity. With GM #2 on the list one might think they'd try to separate their various brands.

I imagine GM probably wasn't thinking about "How do we maximize EV credits?" when they acquired Cadillac in 1909

Toyota are in a similar situation where the EV credit is set to start phasing out later this year, but Lexus is not considered separate to Toyota by the IRS.

Lexus RZ May Miss Out On $7,500 EV Tax Credit

Lexus' first EV may not be eligible for a $7,500 federal tax credit when it goes on sale. Although today's reveal of the 2023 Lexus

www.carsdirect.com

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[Looney100]

I imagine GM probably wasn't thinking about "How do we maximize EV credits?" when they acquired Cadillac in 1909

History can create some complexities, but isn't insurmountable. I work for a company that is over 100 years old. It has restructured legal entities a couple times during my tenure to minimize taxes.

 

[kqian111]

It's all in the legal entity structure. Notice VW and Audi are considered separate entities for EV credit, but not Chevy vs Caddy. I sure hope Genesis is considered separate from Hyundai to give us a longer runway. But either way, Hyundai is in the early innings and has a long way to go before exhausting its EV credits.

Under new proposed legislation, the EV credit will grow to $12,500 if the car is mfr in the US with union labor. I know Genesis will begin producing eGV70 in Alabama this year so if the bill passes, more money to go around!

 

[mc137]

It's all in the legal entity structure. Notice VW and Audi are considered separate entities for EV credit, but not Chevy vs Caddy. I sure hope Genesis is considered separate from Hyundai to give us a longer runway. But either way, Hyundai is in the early innings and has a long way to go before exhausting its EV credits.

Under new proposed legislation, the EV credit will grow to $12,500 if the car is mfr in the US with union labor. I know Genesis will begin producing eGV70 in Alabama this year so if the bill passes, more money to go around!

This bill is not going to move forward with the mid-term elections coming in the US.

I expect the current EV incentive program will be in place for a few more years unless Republicans change their position.

 

[etonduf]

It's an awful lot of money to be missing, probably just temporarily, so many modern safety features.

The thing is, right now the car qualifies for the $7.5K Federal rebate. Waiting for HDA2 could very well cost you $7.5K. Do you want it that badly?

By temporary, do you mean you think they'll roll out an update to existing cars? I thought it was due to a chip shortage, so it wouldn't just be a software update. But I hope that's not the case!

 

[mc137]

By temporary, do you mean you think they'll roll out an update to existing cars? I thought it was due to a chip shortage, so it wouldn't just be a software update. But I hope that's not the case!

I believe the root issue is lack of sensors (radars) - so no OTA fix later.

 

[JEdwards]

By temporary, do you mean you think they'll roll out an update to existing cars? I thought it was due to a chip shortage, so it wouldn't just be a software update. But I hope that's not the case!

Genesis will temporarily stop making cars with that feature. They will resume when their supply chain has recovered.

When you purchase a car without the feature do not expect to get that feature at a later date. It will have been built without the required sensors.