Number of Genesis sold in USA in 2017 and 2018

[YEH]

What I mean is United States buyers don't care what is going on in other countries

Again - who doesn't know that?

But what an automaker chooses to spend its $$ on and develop is increasingly dependent on whether world-wide sales warrants such an investment.

Again, since world-wide sales of the GS and IS (and for that matter, even the LS) are low, the GS and IS are on shaky-ground as to whether Toyota will invest in a next generation model.

If the GS and IS were big sellers in Japan or elsewhere, investing in a new GS /IS wouldn't be an issue.

GM's Board was reluctant to invest in new product for Cadillac until de Nysschen came up w/ a plan to increase the projected sales volume for new models (such as the XT4 and XT6) ; US sales projections weren't deemed to be enough to warrant the investment.

That's why JdN made the pretty drastic move to invest in a factory in China for Cadillac since the added volume of projected China-sales justified the expenditure in the Board's eyes.

It's the same reason why Ford made the changes to the Mustang that it did - turning it from a traditional American pony car to one that was a more well-rounded GT (that would appeal to overseas markets like Europe).

Unlike for the GS and IS, there is no question over whether the G80 and G90 will be discontinued as there are enough sales for Hyundai/Genesis to keep investing in the 2 nameplates.

frankly a brand... a luxury brand especially, has to cater to what product they want and where and how they want to buy it

Well, the JDP IQS and AutoPacific shows that Genesis is catering what their customers want.

Do they have an incomplete lineup?

Sure, but other models/body-styles are on the way.

The market is very competitive in luxury sedans in the United States
Lots of choices and there is a lot of sales volume

And then why do you compare cars that are WAY more expensive?

Especially when you talk about discounting
$15K off a $100K car and $20K off a $75K car is a HUGE discount difference

Wasn't talking about a top-line 7 Series. the 7er starts at $83k.

In regard to a rebage
What is the Lexus ES350 then?
Its a rebadge on an old platform that sells in the same transaction price range as the G80
Lexus still moves 3500 of them a month in the United States.

The ES does not sell in the same transaction price range as the G80.

And like for other Lexus sedan models, will likely see ES discounts increase even further.

I suspect when the new body style rolls out later this year those number will go even higher monthly

Good for them; let us all know when Genesis enters that segment.

I
btw..2011 was the first full year of Equus sales in the Unites States...not 2012

Did I state any different?

2012 was the 2nd full year of sale for the Equus.

IThere are no dwindling sales of sedans in the United States
As I said about 5 times now

Alright, guess you know more about this than the industry.

ILooking at just three sedans close to the transaction price of the G80
The Mercedes C class..the BMW 3/4 series and the Lexus ES350, combined, sell over 15000 cars a month
The G80 is selling 800 a month.....
And there are thousands more sold than of just the three I mentioned in the sedan category in the same price range

Again, none of them are in the same segment as the G80.

C Class sales are on pace for sales around the $57.4k mark - which is considerably below the 86k in sales the C Class did in 2015.

That same year, 3 Series (which included the 4 Series) sales was 140.6k.

This year, 3/4 Series sales are on pace for 79k.

Yeah, sure - sedan/car sales aren't down.

IThe Mercedes E class, in the same price range as the G90, is selling 4000 a month in the United States
The G90 sold about 240 units in May 2018 in the United States

Sedan sales are not dwindling in the United States in either the G80 or G90sedan category transaction ranges

Why do you keep repeating the same thing that has already been debunked?

I am not sure why you keep mentioning dwindling sales. It is not true

See above; plus it's no question that light trucks have increased their marketshare at the expense of sedans/cars whether that be for the mainstream or lux market.

 

[YEH]

LOL....why are you using figures from 10 years ago?

Look at 3-4 years ago and compare the LS to today

Sales are up and again we are talking about a car that was significantly more money than anything Hyundai had to offer

Right, only you would think it sensible to compare sales of a model in its 8th and 9th year of sale as opposed to its 1st year (or at the very least the 1st few years) of sale.

And even then, at its current pace, sales of the LS 500 wouldn't be that much more than sales of the LS 460 in 2014, it's 8th year of sale.

Lets look at the worst sales year for the LS...when the same body style had been around for what 7 years?

Compare that number to what a brand new design G90 is doing a year later

The OLD 7-8 year body style (2017) LS is on track to outsell the G90..... a sedan that was brand new last year!!

Warren

No one is saying that the LS isn't a better seller than the G90 overall.

But at the same time, Lexus has had a 3 decade head start, not to mention a full sedan lineup, where it could build up a customer base for the LS.

The fact that the G90 has outsold the LS at all (w/in a calender yr) is victory in itself.

Plus, the G90, over its lifetime, will outsell the LS 500 when factoring in all markets (w the exception being if Toyota extends the life-cycle of the LS 500 - which is very much a possibility).

 

[turnne]

Really can't separate out the non-AMG models as the C43 is essentially the competitor to the 340.

Plus, the 320 is BMW's current competitor to the likes of the CLA and A3 (until the new 2 Series arrives).

Of course, not everything lines up - the G80, for example, being a tweener in size.

But generally they do; unlike the competition, the G80 is not offered w/ a turbo-4, but didn't take that into account.

But something like this (variations in engine/powertrain offerings) is quite diff. from comparing a brand w/ a full (basic) lineup and one that only has 2 models.

LOL...all that really doesn't matter
Compare the vehicles that share similar traits are close to the same transaction price
ie...is it a sedan that is close to the same price as the other unit

It's totally not the same thing comparing Genesis sale now and 4 years from now when they will have 7 models in their lineup.

Again...you compare it to the sedan that has a similar transaction price

No one is using the whole brand as a litmus test when other brands have more variety

How am I always picking other loser models - when I'm picking/including every brand that is not BMW or MB?

OK, then - every brand other than BMW or MB is a loser.

Why would say that?
I have used the example several times with the Lexus ES350...its a very old model that is long on tooth and about to be replaced
Its in the same price range as the G80 but sells almost 5X as many cars

The whole point is that Genesis does not yet have competitors to the RX, NX, etc. or even the IS - so can only compare them in the segments in which they do compete.

Except you always try to compare the G80 and G90 to cars they don't compete with...and that are FAR more expensive
Again...using the MB C class...BMW 3/4 series and Audi A4...Lexus ES350....they are all very close to the G80 price and outsell it handily

Then you keep posting about the falling sales of Luxury sedans in the United States
Its simply not true

Geeze, when Lexus only had the LS400, were we supposed to compare Lexus sales to overall MB sales? Or just to S Class sales?

No actually..you would have compared to the E class..just like Mercedes did
That's where the LS took the volume from in the segment
The 1992 Mercedes S class( introduced in 1991) was at car a much higher level than a Lexus LS and nearly $40K more expensive

Do you ever use finishes, features and customization options to define a class of car?..LOL


Warren

 

[turnne]

Again - who doesn't know that?

But what an automaker chooses to spend its $$ on and develop is increasingly dependent on whether world-wide sales warrants such an investment.

Again, since world-wide sales of the GS and IS (and for that matter, even the LS) are low, the GS and IS are on shaky-ground as to whether Toyota will invest in a next generation model.

If the GS and IS were big sellers in Japan or elsewhere, investing in a new GS /IS wouldn't be an issue.

GM's Board was reluctant to invest in new product for Cadillac until de Nysschen came up w/ a plan to increase the projected sales volume for new models (such as the XT4 and XT6) ; US sales projections weren't deemed to be enough to warrant the investment.

That's why JdN made the pretty drastic move to invest in a factory in China for Cadillac since the added volume of projected China-sales justified the expenditure in the Board's eyes.

It's the same reason why Ford made the changes to the Mustang that it did - turning it from a traditional American pony car to one that was a more well-rounded GT (that would appeal to overseas markets like Europe).

Unlike for the GS and IS, there is no question over whether the G80 and G90 will be discontinued as there are enough sales for Hyundai/Genesis to keep investing in the 2 nameplates.

Again...doesn't matter to a luxury car buyer in the United States

Well, the JDP IQS and AutoPacific shows that Genesis is catering what their customers want.

.

Again...doesn't matter to a luxury car buyer in the United States

Wasn't talking about a top-line 7 Series. the 7er starts at $83k..

LOL...and no one is buying a base 7 series...just like the S class there is myriad of options and the typical car rolls out with $20K( or more) of options

Do you know luxury cars in the United States?

How many base 7 series or S class cars do you actually see on the road?

The ES does not sell in the same transaction price range as the G80.

And like for other Lexus sedan models, will likely see ES discounts increase even further..

Yes..its within 3K of what I have seen buyers post on what they paid for a V6 G80

And you are right the rebadged and old Lexus ES350 may be discounted further as they roll out the new body style later this year
At about the same transaction price as the G80...which is being heavily discounted....Lexus is selling 3500 a month of the ES which is a rebadge old platform car

Again, none of them are in the same segment as the G80.

C Class sales are on pace for sales around the $57.4k mark - which is considerably below the 86k in sales the C Class did in 2015.

That same year, 3 Series (which included the 4 Series) sales was 140.6k.

This year, 3/4 Series sales are on pace for 79k.

Yeah, sure - sedan/car sales aren't down.

You can keep trying to say the G80 is a higher market segment...but in the United States people valuate cars by type, feature set, finish and price....so that puts the G80 smack dab in that mix of cars I listed

You mention the Mercedes C class but left out some information.... Mercedes turned around and sold more C classes in 2017 than they did in 2015...not sure why you go back to one specific year but yet skip other years when the numbers changed?

Then you have to use the whole variety of cars of that type in the same price range

As I have many times

The market is not shrinking ..there are just winners and losers that gain or lose market share




Why do you keep repeating the same thing that has already been debunked?

See above; plus it's no question that light trucks have increased their marketshare at the expense of sedans/cars whether that be for the mainstream or lux market.

No..SUV's sales are increasing

But luxury sedans are still selling in the United States...the sales are flat but they are not shrinking

By that I define sedans at a given transaction range..ie compare G80 to
BMW 3/4..Mercedes C class....Lexus ES....Audi A4
These( and a few others) all total have had consistent sales in the United States in the last 5 years

Warren

 

[Windchaser]

By that I define sedans at a given transaction range..ie compare G80 to
BMW 3/4..Mercedes C class....Lexus ES....Audi A4
These( and a few others) all total have had consistent sales in the United States in the last 5 years

Warren

I am not sure why you compare the G80 to the BMW 3/4 series, Audi A4, Mercedes C Class and the Lexus ES. They are not in the same class. All of the cars you are comparing the G80 to are considering smaller cars. If a buyer is only interested in price and name plate that might be a valid comparison. However I am sure that most buyers looking at the G80 the size of the vehicle is a major factor in their buying decision and they very likely aren't going to look at smaller cars. All major auto publications place the G80 squarely in the class with the BMW 5 series, Audi A6 and Mercedes E Class.

 

[Edmguy]

I am not sure why you compare the G80 to the BMW 3/4 series, Audi A4, Mercedes C Class and the Lexus ES. They are not in the same class. All of the cars you are comparing the G80 to are considering smaller cars. If a buyer is only interested in price and name plate that might be a valid comparison. However I am sure that most buyers looking at the G80 the size of the vehicle is a major factor in their buying decision and they very likely aren't going to look at smaller cars. All major auto publications place the G80 squarely in the class with the BMW 5 series, Audi A6 and Mercedes E Class.

I agree that and think most people shop for a class or size of vehicle and obviously price affects where in that class they buy, but I doubt would often make them change class.

In the past I owned 3 different 3 series and an A4 and not once would I have compared them to an original Genesis sedan or G80. Those were huge by comparison and not sporty at all. My last vehicle was a F10 535 and on that purchase I did look at the G80 as at the time I was looking for a bigger car. I went with the BMW even though I could have saved over $15K but I didn't once consider looking at the Equus just because it was similar in price.

Finally for my most recent purchase, I wanted smaller again (turns out I hated driving a bigger sedan, no fun) and looked at 340/S4/C43 and also the G70. And while I thought the S4 and C43 were slightly better, the price difference was ~$18K and I fully believe the G70 is about ~95% of the car for ~75% of the price. Add in never having to deal with a service department and I thought it was worth trying out.

 

[turnne]

I am not sure why you compare the G80 to the BMW 3/4 series, Audi A4, Mercedes C Class and the Lexus ES. They are not in the same class. All of the cars you are comparing the G80 to are considering smaller cars. If a buyer is only interested in price and name plate that might be a valid comparison. However I am sure that most buyers looking at the G80 the size of the vehicle is a major factor in their buying decision and they very likely aren't going to look at smaller cars. All major auto publications place the G80 squarely in the class with the BMW 5 series, Audi A6 and Mercedes E Class.

I put it with those cars for a few reasons

Finish, feature set and price
The G80 doesn't have the available features of the mid cars like the E class ..and 5 series
In fact there are several options available on the 3 series that are not available on the G80

It doesn't have the finishes of the mid level luxury cars either and then there is price

Based on what you say about size....a Toyota Avalon is a much larger car than a BMW 3 series..in fact its has more interior room than an E class as well

But I don't think it plays in either of their leagues

It does not have the technology, options and finishes that the other cars have

Warren

 

[turnne]

I agree that and think most people shop for a class or size of vehicle and obviously price affects where in that class they buy, but I doubt would often make them change class.

In the past I owned 3 different 3 series and an A4 and not once would I have compared them to an original Genesis sedan or G80. Those were huge by comparison and not sporty at all. My last vehicle was a F10 535 and on that purchase I did look at the G80 as at the time I was looking for a bigger car. I went with the BMW even though I could have saved over $15K but I didn't once consider looking at the Equus just because it was similar in price.

Finally for my most recent purchase, I wanted smaller again (turns out I hated driving a bigger sedan, no fun) and looked at 340/S4/C43 and also the G70. And while I thought the S4 and C43 were slightly better, the price difference was ~$18K and I fully believe the G70 is about ~95% of the car for ~75% of the price. Add in never having to deal with a service department and I thought it was worth trying out.

I think a lot of people shopping for the German cars....which is the major sales volume in this category...like the features and technology that the cars have

Many are not available on the G80 at all

Seems that most cars that are comparable have very similar feature sets

Compare a Honda Accord to a Toyota Camry and then to a Hyundai Sonata


There is a lot more too it than size

The Toyota Avalon is a larger car than the Mercedes E class ...but in no way do I think they compete

Warren

 

[Paulsr]

I was referring to some predictions I made a couple of years ago....and that many debunked in this forum

Such as there would be no free standing Genesis in the United States 2 years later...there are not

The lease deals on the G90 were the same as the Equus, proportionately. I said The G90 would have about the same sales and resale value almost spot on with the Equus

In fact I said the G90 would be a $35K car when the 3 year leases(with 30K miles) came back
One here who was a regular poster said they would be worth $45K in 3 years

Well..they are worth $45K one year later and I am prepared to say they are going to be worth low $30's at 3 years old
The overwhelming majority seem to be lease cars so there should be an ample, proportionate, supply available.

The part about the V8 referred to the fact that the V8's seem to be less than 10% of the sales. I don't think the average buyer of the G90 cares about having the V8
It would make sense financially , for Hyundai, to drop the V8 option
Something I can see them doing in the very near future.

I also said the G90 , like the Equus, was going to be an extremely good used car value

Warren

There is a standalone Genesis dealer in Noblesville, IN.

 

[ifonline]

Terry Lee Genesis of Noblesville, IN:

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[Mark_888]

Terry Lee Genesis of Noblesville, IN:

Do they have there own service department?

 

[ifonline]

No idea. I don’t live there. I just posted some pictures that I found.

 

[turnne]

Terry Lee Genesis of Noblesville, IN:

View attachment 14314

View attachment 14315​

Unless they built in the last 30 days....its connected to the Hyundai dealership
This is the dealer I go to

I will make a it a point to drive by there and check

Before it was just a part of the same Hyundai dealership that they repurposed

Warren

 

[turnne]

Do they have there own service department?

No..I go to this dealer
Service drive along the far side of the Hyundai dealership
New & Used Hyundai Dealership Serving Indianapolis, IN | Terry Lee Hyundai

I will try to get by there today..unless this has gone up in the last 30 days its just a repurposed part of their Hyundai dealership


Warren

 

[Mark_888]

In order to be considered a stand-alone Genesis dealer, I believe that they will have to commit to building a completely separate dealership facility for sales and service (body shop is always a different story). According to stories in the automotive press, this is the requirement that Genesis Motors has laid out for dealers to get a Genesis Motors franchise going forward, and separate facilities have to be completed by 2021 (or something like that), and in the meantime they can sell Genesis at existing Hyundai dealers (if they make the commitment now to build separate dealerships).

 

[Paulsr]

Unless they built in the last 30 days....its connected to the Hyundai dealership
This is the dealer I go to

I will make a it a point to drive by there and check

Before it was just a part of the same Hyundai dealership that they repurposed

Warren

Terry Lee Hyundai and Terry Lee Genesis have the same address on line.

 

[turnne]

Terry Lee Hyundai and Terry Lee Genesis have the same address on line.

 

[turnne]

Funny how its looks like they tried to "deceive " showing only the Genesis portion in the photo

As you can see from the photo I took this morning..nothing has changed
Genesis area was repurposed from some of the Hyundai showroom

You pull in the same service drive..near the Hyundai signage on the left side...

If they had taken the picture from the other side of the building you could see Genesis on one side of the building and Hyundai on the other side

I will say the other Genesis dealers in town haven't even gone this far....one has just a small free standing sign outside and one Genesis parked in a corner by itself in a showroom full of Hyundai's

Warren

 

[turnne]

In order to be considered a stand-alone Genesis dealer, I believe that they will have to commit to building a completely separate dealership facility for sales and service (body shop is always a different story). According to stories in the automotive press, this is the requirement that Genesis Motors has laid out for dealers to get a Genesis Motors franchise going forward, and separate facilities have to be completed by 2021 (or something like that), and in the meantime they can sell Genesis at existing Hyundai dealers (if they make the commitment now to build separate dealerships).

From a business standpoint
I don't see how an independent business can sink finances in a luxury car dealer ship...with its inherent higher overhead...based on the current sales they have and they heavy discounting they are doing to move the small amount of cars that are selling

Now..unless Hyundai will float them all the investment money ofcourse...

Warren

 

[Mark_888]

From a business standpoint
I don't see how an independent business can sink finances in a luxury car dealer ship...with its inherent higher overhead...based on the current sales they have and they heavy discounting they are doing to move the small amount of cars that are selling

Now..unless Hyundai will float them all the investment money ofcourse...

Warren

I don't know if they are floating the dealerships any money, either in grants or loans. All I know is what has leaked out in the press about the original 100 dealer plan, and the new plan were about 350 existing Hyundai dealers (out of over 800 total) are allowed to apply for a Genesis dealership. They will be required to build a separate facility by some future date, just a Lexus, Acura, and Infiniti have separate dealerships.

By the deadline for having the separate facility built, they should have at least 2 SUV products also.