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Sporadic Low Brake Pedal Issue

GenTex

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My wife has an '09 3.8L genesis sedan with 73,000 mi. While driving to work a couple mornings ago, she was approaching a stop light and applied the brakes, and the pedal went down to within a couple inches from the floor board. She instinctively pumped the brakes and was able to stop the car, so the brakes did work. Of course, this caught her totally off guard, as the first 30 miles of her ride the brakes worked perfectly. She arrived at work and called me, so at days end, I met her at work to drive her car to the dealer. The brake pedal was still going almost to the floor the entire trip to the dealer. So we checked the car into service and left. The service dept. called me the next afternoon and said the tech could not find any problem and the brakes/brake pedal were working fine. They drove it several times with the tech even driving it home that night, but could not duplicate the problem. Brake pads look good, fluid is full and no leaks and no fault codes. This exact issue happened about a month ago on the way home from work, and the wife stopped at a store. When she came out to leave and started the car, the brakes and pedal were perfectly normal again. Now she's afraid to drive it until this issue is resolved and I don't want her to. Has anyone heard of this before? Any suggestions on a possible cause? Any thoughts are much appreciated.
 
My wife has an '09 3.8L genesis sedan with 73,000 mi. While driving to work a couple mornings ago, she was approaching a stop light and applied the brakes, and the pedal went down to within a couple inches from the floor board. She instinctively pumped the brakes and was able to stop the car, so the brakes did work. Of course, this caught her totally off guard, as the first 30 miles of her ride the brakes worked perfectly. She arrived at work and called me, so at days end, I met her at work to drive her car to the dealer. The brake pedal was still going almost to the floor the entire trip to the dealer. So we checked the car into service and left. The service dept. called me the next afternoon and said the tech could not find any problem and the brakes/brake pedal were working fine. They drove it several times with the tech even driving it home that night, but could not duplicate the problem. Brake pads look good, fluid is full and no leaks and no fault codes. This exact issue happened about a month ago on the way home from work, and the wife stopped at a store. When she came out to leave and started the car, the brakes and pedal were perfectly normal again. Now she's afraid to drive it until this issue is resolved and I don't want her to. Has anyone heard of this before? Any suggestions on a possible cause? Any thoughts are much appreciated.

I had the exact same problem on my 2006 Sonata V6 for a long time. Dealer couldn't find anything wrong. Last weekend I received my order for 4 new rotors and pads from R1concepts.com (bought OEQ blanks) and problem solved. That's weird:confused: Brakes like a champ now, but before I changed out everything, the pedal would nearly hit the floor and if I did a panic stop the brakes felt like they were overheated and really wouldn't stop the car. Scary!

I'm not really telling you to throw parts on your car, but if you haven't done any brake work on the vehicle, it probably it time.
 
I had this problem with a previous vehicle, and it was the Master Brake Cylinder. An expensive fix, but as you go without repair the pumping will work less and less well.

This problem with the brake going to the floor has to be addressed immediately, but if it is the master brake cylinder, the problem can occur sporadically, and you can be lulled into putting off the repair until it happens at some crucial moment.
 
At 1st, I thought my issue was my brake booster going to shi*. My problem was never innermitant, it was all of the time, so at least mine was predictable. Let us know what you find out.........
 
At 1st, I thought my issue was my brake booster going to shi*. My problem was never innermitant, it was all of the time, so at least mine was predictable. Let us know what you find out.........

You all have my word that I will post the final outcome. This is a serious issue for me as A. - this is my wife's daily driver and B.- she picks my 2 yr. old grandson up everyday on her way home from work. I would certainly want others to know if it happens to them. With that said, I fully understand how hard an intermittent problem can be to diagnose, especially something as mechanical as a brake system that you would think either works or it doesn't. I find it somewhat hard to swallow that my wife's '09 Genesis is the first one to ever have this problem, and the dealer so far is saying that they don't even have a possible cause. The dealer has had the car since last Thursday and the technician is supposedly driving it home every night and in fact, is driving it this entire weekend, waiting on the brake pedal to almost hit the floor. Not sure what to do if by mid-week or so, the dealer is still at a loss. All I do know is that this is the second time in a little over a month this has happened, and my wife is not driving it again until the problem's been resolved. Will keep you posted.
 
You all have my word that I will post the final outcome. This is a serious issue for me as A. - this is my wife's daily driver and B.- she picks my 2 yr. old grandson up everyday on her way home from work. I would certainly want others to know if it happens to them. With that said, I fully understand how hard an intermittent problem can be to diagnose, especially something as mechanical as a brake system that you would think either works or it doesn't. I find it somewhat hard to swallow that my wife's '09 Genesis is the first one to ever have this problem, and the dealer so far is saying that they don't even have a possible cause. The dealer has had the car since last Thursday and the technician is supposedly driving it home every night and in fact, is driving it this entire weekend, waiting on the brake pedal to almost hit the floor. Not sure what to do if by mid-week or so, the dealer is still at a loss. All I do know is that this is the second time in a little over a month this has happened, and my wife is not driving it again until the problem's been resolved. Will keep you posted.
I would send a registered letter to the dealer and HMA describing the problem and that you are very concerned about the safety of you family. Make sure you save the return receipts. If there is an accident caused by the faulty brakes, contact a personal injury lawyer immediately.
 
I would send a registered letter to the dealer and HMA describing the problem and that you are very concerned about the safety of you family. Make sure you save the return receipts. If there is an accident caused by the faulty brakes, contact a personal injury lawyer immediately.

That is certainly a great idea and a viable option for some Mark, but an accident is not going to happen. The problem will either be resolved or the car will be sold. We love the car, but not enough to take a chance with it's most important system.
 
Brake master cylinders (the part under the hood that turns brake pedal motion into hydraulic pressure) have two pistons in them. The pedal pushes on one piston which pushes on brake fluid to the rear wheel brakes. Once the rear wheel brake pads move and start pushing on the rotors the fluid pressure starts increasing. That increased pressure exists in the entire system, including inside the master cylinder. That pressure then starts pushing on the second piston which in turn pressurizes the fluid for the front brakes. The idea is to make sure the rear brakes engage first (for stability) and to absorb any brake pad-to-rotor clearance/space/gap quickly. (this was really important for car with rear drum brakes as they always have a gap; disc brakes have much less gap)

That's the normal process. However... if there is a leak in the rear brake hydraulics then pressure does not build up in the rear system... and thus the front brakes don't get applied either. After a fair bit of brake pedal motion though the rear brake piston in the master cylinder moves far enough that it physically contacts the front piston and starts pushing on it - instead of having fluid pressure do the job. Now the front brakes work normally. It's a backup/fail-safe mechanism. This often happens when the rubber seals inside the master cylinder fail or get damaged by dirt/grit in the brake fluid. The seals have to push against the (ideally) perfectly round shape of the master cylinder internal bore. If that seal has any damage the fluid is squeezed through the hole instead of making pressure in the brakes.

Some simple tests for this condition.
* if the pedal consistently needs excess travel, after a few stop-n-go drives around the block, hold your hand NEAR (DO NOT TOUCH!) the wheel rim spokes and openings. Feel the heat being radiated by the brakes. The fronts should feel warmer... but if the rear brakes seem to be stone cold then they are not working at all due to a problem with the master cylinder or other issues. Or, if you have one, use one of those infrared temp sensor tools to measure the brake rotor temps.

* The master cylinder bolts to the front of the power brake booster unit. In theory there is NO brake fluid in that area. So loosening the master cylinder and pulling it forward a little bit (whatever the brake fluid metal piping allows) to see if there is any wetness/fluid there is a common test. If the leak is really bad there will be signs of fluid drips on the booster at the 6 o'clock position as the fluid dribbles down. Usually the paint on the booster will be damaged as brake fluid eats car paint. When the leak is this bad the brake fluid level in the reservoir will slowly drop. When the leak first starts though you won't see a change in the reservoir level.

Depending on the design of the stability control and anti-lock brakes (ABS) a failure in that system could also result in a no-brake condition. Ideally failures in the ABS should result in a "fail passive" condition - i.e. any ABS failures cause the braking system to revert to an old style non-ABS system with normal pedal feel. However, there have been ABS system designs that can fail in a mode that basically bypasses the entire braking system. GM pickups years ago had a failure type in the metal valve assembly that "bled" brake pressure away to eliminate wheel lockup: if that valve got jammed in the "bleed" position then all brake pressure was lost. Metal shavings were commonly found in these valves. I don't know the Genesis system well enough to know if there are any failure modes that can lead to the ABS effectively bypassing all brake pressure. I hope not though; there's no reason for such a design in this day and age.

The symptom's on your wife's car sound like classic master cylinder rear cylinder leaks to me... and that generally won't show up on a computer code.

mike c.
 
That is certainly a great idea and a viable option for some Mark, but an accident is not going to happen. The problem will either be resolved or the car will be sold. We love the car, but not enough to take a chance with it's most important system.
If they get a properly worded registered letter, it is much likely they will start replacing parts, even if they can not duplicate the problem. If the letter came from an attorney, that would be best, but hopefully a letter from you will do it.
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Brake pedal should NEVER go the floor, even "once in a while". In the absence of a leak at one of the cylinders (easy to see, of course)...the brake system in cars is divided into two separate systems off the master...the Front Right-Left Rear and the Front Left-Right rear. That is so if a failure in a brake line will not take out both front or both rear brakes (a bad situation)...in other words, the car will tend to stop more evenly in a longer distance. The purpose of the booster is to just make it easier to PUSH the brake pedal to apply pressure to the hydraulic fluid in the master cylinder to the calipers at the four wheels.

The fact that the dealer cannot 'find a problem' does NOT mean a problem does not exist. Rather, it means they cannot detect the problem at the time they look at it. I find it unusual that this dealer does not have access to the Hyundai Knowledge Base, because, even by just reading the posts here, this is a KNOWN issue to Hyundai. As such, you are within your rights to demand they fix the problem as it a SAFETY issue. What would come of this, say, if the dealer says they 'can't find a problem' after it's been there twice, yet your wife gets into an accident, gets injured, injures somebody else or worse? That's a HUGE liability LAWSUIT waiting to happen, and unless they are STUPID, they know it. Yes, the problem is with the master cylinder and it's electronics. If it walks like a duck, looks like a duck, and QUACKS like a duck, IT'S A DUCK. Tell 'em to FIX IT right.
 
We have the same issue with out 2009 Genesis 4.6L 49K miles. Intermittent problem of brake pedal gradually going down at a stop light or while waiting at a stop light the brakes would gradually lose pressure and the car would start creeping forward. The dealer said they did not experience the problem or find any other brake problems but they eventually replaced the master cylinder and brake booster under warranty.
Well, that did not fix the problem and actually it's got worse. They did not know what else to do.
I've been an auto tech for over 30 years so I did my own testing. I plugged both ports off on the master cylinder to eliminate the rest of the brake system.
Master cylinder and booster definitely are good. Reconnected the secondary port and left primary plugged off. Brakes still working correctly. Reversed the connections with the primary connected and secondary plugged off. Brake pedal gradually went down. With no other problems in the brake system that leaves the ABS assembly.
I spoke with the service manager and he is contacting a field engineer before they replace the the ABS unit.
I will update with results.

Mike
 
Wanted to give a quick update on my issue. First, thanks to everyone that responded with their thoughts, some of them quite detailed and thought provoking. I appreciate everyone's time. So, the tech at the dealer ended up pulling the master cylinder away from the booster to check for any internal leaks. The master cylinder is not leaking any fluid, brake booster is perfectly dry, no brake line or caliper leaks and pads are good, (60% front, 80% rear)even at 73,000 miles. He tested sustained brake fluid pressure on all lines, all well within spec. That eliminates the master, booster and lines and leaves the ABS unit. Mikebw22's post closely resembles my issue, although my pedal doesn't fade sitting still, mine is normal on one use and may not be at the next. With my wife too scared to drive the car, I have been driving it to/from work everyday (68 mi. rt) for a week and of course, the brakes have been operating perfectly...lol. Now my wife tells me that on a couple previous occasions while turning at a light, she noticed the ABS light briefly flash on a second or so, then go out. Of course, you can guess what I said about how it would have been nice knowing that little tidbit. Still not sure what to do as the dealer says that my extended warranty company(Zurich with comprehensive) will not cover a $1379.00 ABS unit, unless it shows a failed state. I guess I'm left with waiting until the ABS warning light comes on and stays on, and then there will be a fault code. Or the word "sabotage" comes to mind....ha! I'll keep you posted on this continuing saga.
 
If your abs light came on momentarily a code may have been stored even though the light is out. Have it checked for any abs codes. The most common abs codes are abs wheel speed sensors.

Mike
 
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I had the same problem. 2009 4.6 59k. First happened on sat Aug 4 and then again yesterday aug 6. Both times after I pulled into a driveway. I took it to the dealership yesterday and the problem continued as I got of the freeway and went in surface streets. I asked the guy at the dealership and he said another car had the same problem. Got the call today from the dealer and said they are replacing the abs system. Lucky still under warranty! Should be done thurs, the dealer got me a rental until then, driving a 2012 Chevy sliverado. I will update after a week of driving it.
 
I just experienced the same problem on my 2009 4.6. Thanks to this forum and especially mikebw22's technical input I was able to talk to the service department and verify that they have seen the problem with the ABS unit before. After they check to verify no leaks at the master cylinder they can move right to the ABS and not waste alot of time. I am sorry to hear about some of the members having trouble with the dealers not finding the problems right away but your input on this forum was priceless to me so thank you very much for sharing!!!!!
 
Please let us know if that fixes your problems.

Thanks
Mike
 
Just a quick update. Mikebw22....not sure if you got my response to your email but I thought I would update the forum. Right after I experienced the "soft brakes" I also got a visit from the "electrical gremlins". The back seat vent strated blowing heat while in A/C mode, lost volume on the radio, plus a few other things happened. In the past I have had great luck by simply doing a electrical reset. Almost like a "electrical reboot"....just disconnected the battery for a few min. then reconnected. Just like before everything corrected itself. The Genny acts more like a computer than a car sometimes. I will closely monitor the soft brake issue over the next week and keep everyone updated. As of now I had her out 6 times city and highway and no soft brakes yet...time will tell. If this works it will sure be alot easier and less time consuming than R & R of the ABS unit.
 
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