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SPYSHOTS: The next generation of the Genesis G80 is here

SuperKing

Registered Member
108
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Vancouver, BC
That's a technology problem that they can solve with an updated engine. There's also quite a difference in driving styles between owners of a Mustang and a luxury sedan. You throw in line lock and track mode in any car and the manufacturer will be hesitant to give it 100k mile warranty. Hyundai in Canada only gives us 100k km/60k mile warranty anyways.

What they "should" do is give customers what they want or risk losing them. If they don't have what customers are looking for then what's a customer to do other than look elsewhere?
 

EdP

Supporting Member
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2,413
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Genesis Model Type
Genesis G80
That's a technology problem that they can solve with an updated engine. There's also quite a difference in driving styles between owners of a Mustang and a luxury sedan. You throw in line lock and track mode in any car and the manufacturer will be hesitant to give it 100k mile warranty. Hyundai in Canada only gives us 100k km/60k mile warranty anyways.

What they "should" do is give customers what they want or risk losing them. If they don't have what customers are looking for then what's a customer to do other than look elsewhere?
Look at the present demographics of the Genesis market and most are not overly interested in a 500 hp engine. They are giving customers what they want. I've had my share of big block Chevys and GTOs but I now longer drag race.

This forum has a fairly high percentage of performance oriented participants but most owners have plenty of power. I don't expect the same performance from a Genesis as a Mustang, though the G70 buyer may sway that a bit. The G70, I don't think, was designed to be a Mustang killer.

Technology can overcome some of limitations but that will also cost a bundle of money to develop. Genesis is also a value car and it will lose that edge too if not careful.
 

SuperKing

Registered Member
108
7
18
Vancouver, BC
If they want to be a luxury brand they need the V8. If they wanted it to be a value car, they should've kept selling them as Hyundais. Just about all the luxury car brands have a mid size with an optional V8. Sure, Jaguar doesn't sell many V8 XJ's compared to the V6 but the option is there if you want it. Same with the 5 series, E-Class, Q70, etc... If they want Genesis to be successful, they need to copy what the successful brands are doing right...
 

EdP

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If they want to be a luxury brand they need the V8. If they wanted it to be a value car, they should've kept selling them as Hyundais. Just about all the luxury car brands have a mid size with an optional V8. Sure, Jaguar doesn't sell many V8 XJ's compared to the V6 but the option is there if you want it. Same with the 5 series, E-Class, Q70, etc... If they want Genesis to be successful, they need to copy what the successful brands are doing right...
Look ahead to the EPA regulations. In a couple of years you will see more electrics and less V8s. Regulations may change in the next year or so, but they are not going away. Big engines will though, unless offset with something else.
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SuperKing

Registered Member
108
7
18
Vancouver, BC
Like I said before, Hyundai sells enough 4 and 6 cylinders to allow them to sell a few V8's. Daimler sells enough 4 and 6's to allow them to sell gas guzzling AMG cars. Again, that's a technology problem. Getting the V8 to be more efficient could be as easy as installing auto stop/start or a new transmission. If Hyundai could make a V8 that meets the new regulations, don't you think that's a lot of potential customers? The new regulations don't apply to all markets either. When Holden stopped making the V8 Commodore, a lot of customers went to the 5.0 Genesis. There's a market for big V8 sedans that they can't ignore.
 

MyCorvette

Hasn't posted much yet...
57
2
8
Genesis Model Type
Genesis G90
Just won't sound the same without the V8 which is the main reason I bought it and it'd be a hard sell to me without the V8. Don't see why Hyundai can't boost power to the V8 up to 500hp. Ford is getting 460hp out of their 5.0L motors, an extra 40hp shouldn't be impossible. The Tau is about 10 years old now, it's time for a major update.
Hyundai will not put too many R&D effort on naturally aspirated engines now (especially the V8), because pressure from the EPA mpg regulation.

It costs Ford $$$ to develop the Coyote V8 to achieve that level of output, for example, it uses 4-2-1 type exhaust manifold, port + direct dual injection, and its cylinder head is redesigned to accomodate the 7,500 RPM redline (500 rpm higher than the 2nd-gen). The reason why Ford can afford to do this is because it can share the development costs with the F150 truck, which also uses this V8.

The current Tau V8 will need a major design overhaul to gain another 10% output - for NA engines which is already high-output, even a 3% - 5% improvement needs significant engineering. Of course Hyundai is not willing to spend that R&D money, due to the G90 is the only application, and its sales volume is close to be negligible.

In fact, the 2018 LS500, which only comes with turbocharged V6, already outsold (or very close to) the Mercedes S class/BMW 7 series/Audi A8 in the past couple months. This proves nowdays, the strategy of high output V6T and not offering V8 has no problem at all for marketing a full size flagship sedan, from the financial aspect.
 

MyCorvette

Hasn't posted much yet...
57
2
8
Genesis Model Type
Genesis G90
Like I said before, Hyundai sells enough 4 and 6 cylinders to allow them to sell a few V8's. Daimler sells enough 4 and 6's to allow them to sell gas guzzling AMG cars. Again, that's a technology problem. Getting the V8 to be more efficient could be as easy as installing auto stop/start or a new transmission. If Hyundai could make a V8 that meets the new regulations, don't you think that's a lot of potential customers? The new regulations don't apply to all markets either. When Holden stopped making the V8 Commodore, a lot of customers went to the 5.0 Genesis. There's a market for big V8 sedans that they can't ignore.
If you look at the LS500 sales, you will know having a V8 or not doesn't matter.
 

SuperKing

Registered Member
108
7
18
Vancouver, BC
I'm sure they can use the V8 in their new SUV or even a new coupe. I can see the Lexus outselling their rivals though. The A8 was never a big seller, the S and 7 are almost 4 years old. Buyers in that segment always flock to the latest and greatest. But at the end of the day money is going to go to the company who makes the product buyers are looking for. I've had 2x MR2T's and 2011 Sonata turbo so I'm not new to forced induction. Every drivetrain issue I've had with those cars were boost related. I pretty much said no more boost after my Sonata.
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MyCorvette

Hasn't posted much yet...
57
2
8
Genesis Model Type
Genesis G90
I'm sure they can use the V8 in their new SUV or even a new coupe. I can see the Lexus outselling their rivals though. The A8 was never a big seller, the S and 7 are almost 4 years old. Buyers in that segment always flock to the latest and greatest. But at the end of the day money is going to go to the company who makes the product buyers are looking for. I've had 2x MR2T's and 2011 Sonata turbo so I'm not new to forced induction. Every drivetrain issue I've had with those cars were boost related. I pretty much said no more boost after my Sonata.
From an auto fans aspect, there is many reasons to love V8. However I am afraid Hyundai senior management does not think so - as long as it costs less to achieve the same (or better) sales goal, they will go for that route. Apparently the upcoming 3.5 V6T can match (or exceed) the current NA V8's specs, on paper; and I believe this is the same impression for most consumers.
 

bubbaG80Sport

Hasn't posted much yet...
SUSTAINING MEMBER
125
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Genesis G80 Sport
Any properly run business (excludes Jaguar ;) ) will make their decisions solely on $. I predict within 25 years V8's will be relegated to niche/exotic vehicles like V10/V12 engines in cars available today. Today and in the future there are/will not be enough car enthusiasts to warrant the cost of designing and maintaining a V8 in a car manufacturers product line.

Keep your G80 V8's. They may be some of the last V8's and worth $$$$ as highly collectible 25 years from now.
 

omegafiler

Getting familiar with the group...
SUSTAINING MEMBER
131
31
28
TX
Genesis Model Type
Genesis G80
Let's face it, engine choice will probably depend on which manufacture or model they happen to be emulating at the time.

Crossing fingers; Hope it's AMG. ;)
 
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SuperKing

Registered Member
108
7
18
Vancouver, BC
Exactly, if they ever want a performance division to compete with AMG/M/F then they're going to need to keep a V8 around that they can spruce up at a later date. Sure smaller engines are great for fuel economy, AMG makes a 2.0T that has similar HP and TQ numbers to our V6T but would you want that in the G80? I sure wouldn't want a luxury car that screams to 4000rpm with normal driving even if it performs the same.
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Spanky61

Been here awhile...
348
40
28
NM
Genesis Model Type
Genesis G80
The GLA 45 AMG has a 2.0 L Turbo that is rated at 375 whp. I owned one and the Genesis G80 or G70 wouldn't be able to keep up no matter how hard it tried. A GLA 45 AMG will out run a turbo Porsche in a mile dash. Plus it will cost you $78K. 0-60 4.4 seconds guaranteed.
 

MyCorvette

Hasn't posted much yet...
57
2
8
Genesis Model Type
Genesis G90
Exactly, if they ever want a performance division to compete with AMG/M/F then they're going to need to keep a V8 around that they can spruce up at a later date. Sure smaller engines are great for fuel economy, AMG makes a 2.0T that has similar HP and TQ numbers to our V6T but would you want that in the G80? I sure wouldn't want a luxury car that screams to 4000rpm with normal driving even if it performs the same.
There is very little potential left for the current Tau V8. To raise its output, significant amount of work need to be done to the current form. The Tau V8 is not suitable for turbocharging too, due to it is open-deck block design (experimental project is OK, but mass production will have reliability issue).

If Genesis has similar percentage share of the luxury car market like Mercedes/BMW/Audi, yes building a performance branch like the AMG/M/RS and developing dedicated high output V8/V12 does make sense financially. But for the current situation, obviously Genesis is still far from there. Hyundai is a for-profit company, not a charity, so they cannot deviate too far away from the business principles.
 

SuperKing

Registered Member
108
7
18
Vancouver, BC
I don't expect Hyundai to concentrate on profit at this time. What they should be doing is taking losses on the brand until it's established just like all businesses. And to establish the brand, they need to spend money on R&D, marketing, dealerships, etc... and most importantly, build products people want.
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EdP

Supporting Member
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I don't doubt the performance of smaller boosted engines but they take away from the driving experience of a big sedan with a big lazy engine. They have their place and so does a V8.
There have been many really good V8 engines over the last 60 years or so. It was a big deal to get 1 HP per cubic inch too. Many make the 5.0 seem small today. I had the
Chevy 348 but my brother had the 454, a 7.4 liter. Imagine what it would do today with modern technology.

The EPA standards have killed those engines and new standards are going to kill what is left. It just is not practical for the car companies to spend loads of money for a tiny segment.

My G80 is the 3.8. Why? Sure the 5,0 is nice, but I'd rather have the extra $5000 in the bank. I still get very good performance but priorities have changed over the years. I can still cruise at 80+ and I don't get lost at the light when it changes 99% of the time.

They are building cars I, and many others, do want. Perhaps it is not what you want though. We all have different needs and desires.
 

SuperKing

Registered Member
108
7
18
Vancouver, BC
Hyundai obviously thinks there's a market otherwise they wouldn't have offered 3 engine choices in the current model. There are ways around emissions requirements such as increasing efficiency in all the other cars or throwing an electric into the lineup so the fleet meets the requirements. I'm sure Fiat Chrysler and GM are going to do that instead of killing off cars like the Corvette. Aston Martin would have to leave and if Ferrari is spun off of Fiat then they're out as well. The standards also only apply to the US. Hyundai could still sell the V8 in Canada and other world markets. They already sell the car with 2 other engine options (2.0 and 3.3) that we don't get here. Different engines for different markets isn't unheard of.
 

MyCorvette

Hasn't posted much yet...
57
2
8
Genesis Model Type
Genesis G90
Hyundai obviously thinks there's a market otherwise they wouldn't have offered 3 engine choices in the current model. There are ways around emissions requirements such as increasing efficiency in all the other cars or throwing an electric into the lineup so the fleet meets the requirements. I'm sure Fiat Chrysler and GM are going to do that instead of killing off cars like the Corvette. Aston Martin would have to leave and if Ferrari is spun off of Fiat then they're out as well. The standards also only apply to the US. Hyundai could still sell the V8 in Canada and other world markets. They already sell the car with 2 other engine options (2.0 and 3.3) that we don't get here. Different engines for different markets isn't unheard of.

The reason why the 3.3T exists is because there is a very strong business, with multiple use cases and expected larger sales volume:

1. The Stinger upper trim need an engine comparable to the S5/440i GC etc.
2. The G70 upper trim need an engine to compete with S4/340i/C43 AMG
3. The G90 need an entry level engine for the US market

Obviously the 3.8L V6 cannot fulfill these requirements, and the 5.0 V8 is over-qualified, therefore it is natural to have the 3.3T. Since Hyundai has to make the 3.3T, it is wise to also share it on the G80 to further increase the profit margin.
 

MyCorvette

Hasn't posted much yet...
57
2
8
Genesis Model Type
Genesis G90
I don't expect Hyundai to concentrate on profit at this time. What they should be doing is taking losses on the brand until it's established just like all businesses. And to establish the brand, they need to spend money on R&D, marketing, dealerships, etc... and most importantly, build products people want.
I think within Hyundai senior management's mind, spending money on the 3.5T V6 (or any turbocharged engine) can better offer "products people want". By adjusting the turbo mapping, one engine platform can spawn out many versions of output level.

I understand for hardcore auto fans, # of cylinders, # of liter displacement matters; but for the general public this is less relevant to their purchasing decision making, this is still true for the luxury car market.
 
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