Window tinting advice?

[Mark_888]

Maybe I wasn't clear. They're not claiming that they're using high-tech ceramic film. They're claiming it's something else entirely; something to do with nano-technology that has absolutely nothing in common with "conventional" films, including ceramic, metallized, dyed, or any hybrid of the same.

This is why your warnings resonated. Either I've stumbled onto something remarkable... or it's total BS. I've sent an email and expect a response tomorrow sometime.

The more I think about it, though, the more I think it's just re-branded V-Kool (which is considered a very good film itself). We will see!

The nano-technology is a sputtered ceramic film. Same thing. Ceramics are not conventional films, they are very high-tech and very expensive and require a huge capital investment to manufacture. Don't worry about what BS they tell you about the film.

Now I am not necessarily saying that all ceramic films are exactly the same, but ceramic is the only material that can reflect a large amount of IR and UV with a high VLT such as 72%, but still not block radio waves as a metallic film will.

As I mentioned earlier, I have a high-tech 72% film on some home windows called Panorama Hilite. It may be the same film as you tint shop is proposing, but maybe sold under a different brand name (or maybe it is the exact same brand of film).
http://www.panoramadesignerfilms.com/Products/Hilite

 

[OBCT]

The nano-technology is a sputtered ceramic film. Same thing. Ceramics are not conventional films, they are very high-tech and very expensive and require a huge capital investment to manufacture. Don't worry about what BS they tell you about the film.

Now I am not necessarily saying that all ceramic films are exactly the same, but ceramic is the only material that can reflect a large amount of IR and UV with a high VLT such as 72%, but still not block radio waves as a metallic film will.

As I mentioned earlier, I have a high-tech 72% film on some home windows called Panorama Hilite. It may be the same film as you tint shop is proposing, but maybe sold under a different brand name (or maybe it is the exact same brand of film).
http://www.panoramadesignerfilms.com/Products/Hilite

OK, sure, it could be ceramic technology they're talking about. I trust your expertise on this matter, though I don't know what makes you absolutely sure some brand new technology couldn't be involved here.

To be clear, though, I wouldn't be the least bit surprised if Diamond Cut IR is similar to other films on the market. Even so, I happen to believe them when they say that Diamond Cut is "unique" ... at the very least, to their market. Automotive tint. I've never seen or heard of anything like it being made available anywhere for installation on a vehicle. Have you?

Most automotive ceramic tints have the classic dark, black/gray/charcoal appearance (Huper Optik, Madico, Formula One, etc). V-Kool's automotive line of film looks similar to the film in question (trademark light-bluish hue), but it is metal-based (apparently they use tiny bits of gold and silver to acheive their high levels of solar rejection), which is the very thing Premier wanted to avoid in Diamond Cut's development.

There are other ceramic-based residential or industrial films that also look similar to Diamond Cut, including Panorama's Dual Reflective Slate series. I have yet to come across one with the specifications of Diamond Cut IR, though. 99% UV and 92% IR is a lot of solar rejection for a very light film (72%). It could be that Premier worked with the same developer firm as Panorama did for the Dual Reflective film, but requested different attributes from the film, thus the differing specs. It's just speculation, though ... this may be information we'll never know.


The point is, I don't think it was totally fair of you guys to jump all over their original claim without knowing exactly what it was you were dealing with. Advances in technology happen all the time, and I'm sure even folks in the industry will be surprised with the next best window film to come along, whenever it does. Not diminishing the occurrence of the usual "BS-ing" by tint salesmen! Believe me, I know where you're coming from in that regard.


In their email to me, Premier claims that a lot of capital was put into R&D, and based on the success of the film thus far, they anticipate taking Diamand Cut to the global marketplace in 3-6 months. This is a bold claim, something they shouldn't say if it were not true for fear of customers like me, and potential customers like you (if they go global) calling their bluff and losing faith in their brand as a result. It just doesn't make sense to lie about a short term goal like that.

If it is true, then they must have a.) abundant capital, and b.) a quality product. As you said, there's just too much $$$ involved for those invested in this product to be fooling around. Taking a product to the competitive world of window tint will be a tough sell these days, though, I imagine.

Once it goes international and the word gets out, I don't know if Diamond Cut IR will revolutionize the automotive window film industry; I do think it has a great chance of find a niche in the market. I know a lot of people will be attracted to it's traits, just as we were (are).

 

[Mark_888]

OK, sure, it could be ceramic technology they're talking about. I trust your expertise on this matter, though I don't know what makes you absolutely sure some brand new technology couldn't be involved here.

To be clear, though, I wouldn't be the least bit surprised if Diamond Cut IR is similar to other films on the market. Even so, I happen to believe them when they say that Diamond Cut is "unique" ... at the very least, to their market. Automotive tint. I've never seen or heard of anything like it being made available anywhere for installation on a vehicle. Have you?

Most automotive ceramic tints have the classic dark, black/gray/charcoal appearance (Huper Optik, Madico, Formula One, etc). V-Kool's automotive line of film looks similar to the film in question (trademark light-bluish hue), but it is metal-based (apparently they use tiny bits of gold and silver to acheive their high levels of solar rejection), which is the very thing Premier wanted to avoid in Diamond Cut's development.

There are other ceramic-based residential or industrial films that also look similar to Diamond Cut, including Panorama's Dual Reflective Slate series. I have yet to come across one with the specifications of Diamond Cut IR, though. 99% UV and 92% IR is a lot of solar rejection for a very light film (72%). It could be that Premier worked with the same developer firm as Panorama did for the Dual Reflective film, but requested different attributes from the film, thus the differing specs. It's just speculation, though ... this may be information we'll never know.


The point is, I don't think it was totally fair of you guys to jump all over their original claim without knowing exactly what it was you were dealing with. Advances in technology happen all the time, and I'm sure even folks in the industry will be surprised with the next best window film to come along, whenever it does. Not diminishing the occurrence of the usual "BS-ing" by tint salesmen! Believe me, I know where you're coming from in that regard.


In their email to me, Premier claims that a lot of capital was put into R&D, and based on the success of the film thus far, they anticipate taking Diamand Cut to the global marketplace in 3-6 months. This is a bold claim, something they shouldn't say if it were not true for fear of customers like me, and potential customers like you (if they go global) calling their bluff and losing faith in their brand as a result. It just doesn't make sense to lie about a short term goal like that.

If it is true, then they must have a.) abundant capital, and b.) a quality product. As you said, there's just too much $$$ involved for those invested in this product to be fooling around. Taking a product to the competitive world of window tint will be a tough sell these days, though, I imagine.

Once it goes international and the word gets out, I don't know if Diamond Cut IR will revolutionize the automotive window film industry; I do think it has a great chance of find a niche in the market. I know a lot of people will be attracted to it's traits, just as we were (are).

First of all, I am not sure you understand the dynamics of tint film. There are only a few states with the 70% VLT requirement and that is only on the front side windows (except for NY), so there is not a big market for such films in the automotive tint film space.

Second, very few people are going to pay $500, and not many will pay $400 for an auto tint job.

The vast majority of high tech tint films were developed for the commercial office building market, and then trickle down to the automotive market. Maybe not the autommtive tint films themselves, but the technology behind them. No one is going to develop a new technology just for automotive tints that will end up costing $500+ per vehicle. Automative tint films usually contain the same technology as developed for commercial building, but sometimes with a slightly different plastic base to aid in installation on automotive glass.

The claim that other ceramic tints have a classic dark, black/gray/charcoal appearance is bull. It depends on the VLT. A VLT or 72% is obviously going to be lighter than a film of 35% VLT (the most common darkness), and most people who get auto tints want some privacy, so unless the state where they live requries 70% they are going to get something darker. Most nano-technology ceramic sputtered films do not have a classic dark, black/gray/charcoal appearance and are always lighter than dyed films with the same heat rejection specifications.

I never said that there are not new technologies being developed. Some ceramic films are better than others, but they are all still basically nano-technology sputtered ceramic films and none of them were initially developed for the automotive tint industry, much less a couple of automotive tint shops in CA. Some of these films may not be 100% ceramic, and may have metal in them as well to provide superior heat rejection.

Here is an brief explanaiton of Nano-technology sputtered films that might be helpful:

"Nano-technology sputtered films can have thin layers of up to 25 to 30 different material (metals or ceramics). Sputtering is done in a vacuum chamber, but the application of the material on film is achieved at the atomic level. Electromagnetic fields direct streams of ions from a chemically inert gas (usually argon) toward the metal or ceramic material. This ion bombardment, which is often described as "atomic billiards," causes groups of atoms to dislodge in small bursts and scatter uniformly across the film. For many applications, ceramics are preferred because metal particles can interfere with radio and wireless communications, but the technology is basically the same regardless of the material used for each layer. Many so-called ceramic films actually have some metal in them (notably Huper Optik ceramics)."​

When I got my Formula One Pinnacle (ceramic) tint job done on my Genesis, the installer was talking about a new 70% film that was being beta-tested at various auto-tint shops. It sounds like the film I have on my home windows and possibly the same film your auto-tint shop is talking about. Usually, they reason they need testing is that, unlike office and residential window applications, automobile windows have some curvature in them (or at least most do) and this can sometimes make the high-end films harder to install, and they need to make sure that such films will stay looking good over a long period of time on a curved glass installation.

Brand new technology? Well not exactly completely brand new because all the films we are talking about are nano-technology sputtered films. But new and improved? Sure, but not just for 2 auto tint shops. The basic technology for all new films is developed for commercial buildings, and trickles down to the auto tint market, sometimes with a different substrate to ease in installation on auto windows.

 

[OBCT]

First of all, I am not sure you understand the dynamics of tint film. There are only a few states with the 70% VLT requirement and that is only on the front side windows (except for NY), so there is not a big market for such films in the automotive tint film space.

Second, very few people are going to pay $500, and not many will pay $400 for an auto tint job.

The vast majority of high tech tint films were developed for the commercial office building market, and then trickle down to the automotive market. Maybe not the autommtive tint films themselves, but the technology behind them. No one is going to develop a new technology just for automotive tints that will end up costing $500+ per vehicle. Automative tint films usually contain the same technology as developed for commercial building, but sometimes with a slightly different plastic base to aid in installation on automotive glass.

The claim that other ceramic tints have a classic dark, black/gray/charcoal appearance is bull. It depends on the VLT. A VLT or 72% is obviously going to be lighter than a film of 35% VLT (the most common darkness), and most people who get auto tints want some privacy, so unless the state where they live requries 70% they are going to get something darker. Most nano-technology ceramic sputtered films do not have a classic dark, black/gray/charcoal appearance and are always lighter than dyed films with the same heat rejection specifications.

I never said that there are not new technologies being developed. Some ceramic films are better than others, but they are all still basically nano-technology sputtered ceramic films and none of them were initially developed for the automotive tint industry, much less a couple of automotive tint shops in CA. Some of these films may not be 100% ceramic, and may have metal in them as well to provide superior heat rejection.

Here is an brief explanaiton of Nano-technology sputtered films that might be helpful:

"Nano-technology sputtered films can have thin layers of up to 25 to 30 different material (metals or ceramics). Sputtering is done in a vacuum chamber, but the application of the material on film is achieved at the atomic level. Electromagnetic fields direct streams of ions from a chemically inert gas (usually argon) toward the metal or ceramic material. This ion bombardment, which is often described as "atomic billiards," causes groups of atoms to dislodge in small bursts and scatter uniformly across the film. For many applications, ceramics are preferred because metal particles can interfere with radio and wireless communications, but the technology is basically the same regardless of the material used for each layer. Many so-called ceramic films actually have some metal in them (notably Huper Optik ceramics)."​

When I got my Formula One Pinnacle (ceramic) tint job done on my Genesis, the installer was talking about a new 70% film that was being beta-tested at various auto-tint shops. It sounds like the film I have on my home windows and possibly the same film your auto-tint shop is talking about. Usually, they reason they need testing is that, unlike office and residential window applications, automobile windows have some curvature in them (or at least most do) and this can sometimes make the high-end films harder to install, and they need to make sure that such films will stay looking good over a long period of time on a curved glass installation.

Brand new technology? Well not exactly completely brand new because all the films we are talking about are nano-technology sputtered films. But new and improved? Sure, but not just for 2 auto tint shops. The basic technology for all new films is developed for commercial buildings, and trickles down to the auto tint market, sometimes with a different substrate to ease in installation on auto windows.

Fair enough. Interesting. I appreciate the info... it's always good to learn new things, and being informed when it comes to the products we buy as consumers is important, I think.

Whether or not the owners of Premier are the primary people invested into adapting the new (but already basically existing) sputtered ceramic technology to automotive applications isn't really the point, I suppose. I would be disappointed if they outright lied to me like that, but if the product and customer service are top-notch I'd probably be willing to overlook that. Their elite clientele group could suggest mega rich owners with connections, the type who could front the sort of capital needed for the R&D. It's gotta come from somewhere.

If Diamond Cut IR appears on the wider market in the next little while, you can tell your friends and colleagues that you've already heard all about it.

 

[Mark_888]

Fair enough. Interesting. I appreciate the info... it's always good to learn new things, and being informed when it comes to the products we buy as consumers is important, I think.

Whether or not the owners of Premier are the primary people invested into adapting the new (but already basically existing) sputtered ceramic technology to automotive applications isn't really the point, I suppose. I would be disappointed if they outright lied to me like that, but if the product and customer service are top-notch I'd probably be willing to overlook that. Their elite clientele group could suggest mega rich owners with connections, the type who could front the sort of capital needed for the R&D. It's gotta come from somewhere.

If Diamond Cut IR appears on the wider market in the next little while, you can tell your friends and colleagues that you've already heard all about it.

Elite clientèle group? How many cars do they have to do to raise millions needed to develop the product? As I mentioned before, the technology comes from tint films made for commercial buildings, where the amount of glass is substantial and volumes are high.

If I do see Diamond Cut IR, I know it will be just re-branded version of some other film developed elsewhere.

As to the lying, my car dealer lied (or wildly exaggerated) during the sales pitch and transaction so many times that I lost count (just like almost every dealer I have ever dealt with). I really don't care that much, and ignore the BS, and buy the car, and leave.

 

[OBCT]

Elite clientèle group? How many cars do they have to do to raise millions needed to develop the product? As I mentioned before, the technology comes from tint films made for commercial buildings, where the amount of glass is substantial and volumes are high.

If I do see Diamond Cut IR, I know it will be just re-branded version of some other film developed elsewhere.

As to the lying, my car dealer lied (or wildly exaggerated) during the sales pitch and transaction so many times that I lost count (just like almost every dealer I have ever dealt with). I really don't care that much, and ignore the BS, and buy the car, and leave.

re: elite clientele. I knew I should've been more clear when I was posting it the first time. I'll explain.

It isn't the money they make from the film due to their clientele group being elite; I'm referring to the connections the owners of Premier "must" have in order to attract such a group in the first place. Your average joe blow tinter ain't gonna command this community of customers... it just ain't gonna happen.

Therefore, I'm taking that assumption - owners/operators with mega connections to the elite car enthusiast crowd - to the next logical step: owners/operators with mucho dinero. Mucho dinero = propensity to invest in new or adapted technologies. I think the correlation is evident.


But it's not worth "arguing" about, frankly. I agree with you that Diamond Cut is in all likelihood either a straight re-brand or a slightly modified version of an existing tint technology, then adapted for automobile applications. I may personally believe that it could include some brand new technology never before seen in window film, but I have no way of proving that and I know the chances are very low (as you have explained). You think the chances of this are zero; I think they're very low. We're all happy.


As to your final point... I'm slowly learning to do the same.

 

[Mark_888]

For your own sake, you had better hope that the film you are putting on your car is not a brand new technology that has never been used before.

 

[Anfield8]

Crupp, I want the same tint as you but my local dealer wants $425 not including sunroof. Are you sure you paid $325 ? Are you still happy you went with 50% ? Thanks chris

 

[Mark_888]

Crupp, I want the same tint as you but my local dealer wants $425 not including sunroof. Are you sure you paid $325 ? Are you still happy you went with 50% ? Thanks chris

I also have Formula One Pinnacle 50, and paid $350 (not including sunroof). It helped that it was in January, and car sales were slow becasue of the credit crunch earlier this year. The installer claimed that their regular price is $400 for that film on a Genesis.

The Pinnacle 50 is fairly light, so not for those who want a lot of privacy, but I like mine. Misher51 (sp ?) has the same film and some pics in his gallery.

 

[ASHDUMP]

Would anyone think or consider putting 35% on all side windows and 50% on the rear window that has the sun shade? I want to have an easy time looking out the rear window. Does this make sense?

______________________________

Help support this site so it can continue supporting you!

 

[Mark_888]

Would anyone think or consider putting 35% on all side windows and 50% on the rear window that has the sun shade? I want to have an easy time looking out the rear window. Does this make sense?

Usually it is the other way around. Many states have stricter laws on the side windows (especially front side windows) and let you put on a darker tint (lower VLT) on the rear window. I have 50% all the way around and that is a bit unusual in my state (which allows 35% on all windows except front windshield). I would ask the tint shop for their advice.

 

[dataguy]

Would anyone think or consider putting 35% on all side windows and 50% on the rear window that has the sun shade? I want to have an easy time looking out the rear window. Does this make sense?

Go with the same all around or it will look strange. I went with 30% around and even with the shade deployed AND electrochromatic mirror dimming AND night, I can still see well enough out the back. Absolutely no problem during the day.

I asked the same question before I tinted and got the same answer. And that answer was correct.

 

[OBCT]

You could do it. I mean... in a sense, it makes sense. (that looks weird written out)

I think you'd be surprised how much visibility there is with 35% tint.

Mark is right, though... find a tint shop with experienced installers and ask them for their advice.

 

[ASHDUMP]

Thanks for the advice guys.

 

[RonP]

I live in Wisconsin. Had my car tinted At Ziebart, cost $219.00 for their best tint, with a lifetime warranty. Did 40% Looks great......

 

[scottdk]

Would anyone think or consider putting 35% on all side windows and 50% on the rear window that has the sun shade? I want to have an easy time looking out the rear window. Does this make sense?

Have 35% all around, even with sunshade extended I have no problem looking out back window day or night.

 

[OBCT]

Time for an update...

The tint is installed! Front sides @ 63% VLT, rear sides and rear @ 50% VLT. I took some pictures a week later to allow for the usual evaporation/settling. I uploaded them here and they can be found in this photo album. The pictures are kind of in random order I think (I don't know how to re-order them), so you'll have to read the captions to know if the shot is pre- or post-tint (it has tint only if it says it does).


Our overall experience with Premier Protective Films International was great. They aren't in the business of bargains, but their attention to detail is obvious IMO. I'm going to try to get some super close-up shots of the tint this week to showcase this.

We really like the Diamond Cut IR film and can feel a significant difference in temperature in the cab if the car sits 4+ hours, even here in November (we had a couple of sunny days in the last week that we made our observations on).


Questions/comments welcome.

 

[GripperDon]

http://www.motherswindowtint.com/Huper_Optik.html

I personally have put this on 3 cars live in Scottsdale Arizona the sunny capital and it is by far the best period. Research it and you will learn the facts.

 

[scottdk]

I need to look into this product more. I'm sure it's expensive and may not be super universal, but find it interesting.

This is just like the glass roof on the Maybach, which is more than $10,000.

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qBg51JlV3dM&feature=popt02us05"]YouTube- Vario Plus Window "Tint"[/ame]

 

[RonP]

I read a posting that talked about a drivers door short in the electrical system caused from the water draining from the newly installed window tinting. Has anyone had any problem with the rear sun shade motor or wiring after tinting being installed?

Calvin

No problem with the rear sundshade after tinting by Zebarth......good job over all......