Recommending the best synthetic oil

[QuantumRift]

Thanks for the tip. I've not been able to find it in any case (it's harder and harder to find, maybe 'cause of the specs - used to be readily available at AutoZone but not so much anymore), last time I used it was for my Isuzu pickup. And if given the choice, I'd still stick with the 0w or 5w-20 over a 30w oil. But since I change fairly frequently, I would not expect the German Castrol to be that detrimental (I generally switch off from one manufacturer or another in any case). Good to know, though.

Much appreciated!

You probably aren't going to believe me (yes, I have read all the posts on Bob's the Oil Guy, etc), but Castrol 0W-30 European Formula does not meet Hyundai specs. That particular oil is designed for MB, BMW, VW, and a few others. Mobil 1 has a 0W-40 European Formula Oil (that also does not meet Hyundai specs) but Mobil 1 0W-30 AFE is not a European formula oil that does meet Hyundai specs.

If you want to use Castrol synthetic that does meet Hyundai specs, then make sure it does not say "European Formula." BTW, Castrol is now owned by BP.

Here is information from the Castrol Website:

Castrol EDGE with SYNTEC Power Technology 0W-30 meets the industry specification for a 30 weight oil, which is 2.9 minimum.

Castrol EDGE SPT 0W-30 is engineered to meet European specifications which require a higher minimum HTHS viscosity. The HTHS viscosity of this product is 3.5 cp

Follow-up info — Sep 21, 2012The one reason not to publish the HTHS viscosity is that this value can lead to consumer misinterpretation. A higher HTHS may be important in delivering performance and protection. However a lower HTHS viscosity can deliver fuel economy improvement. The important item is that the level of HTHS meets the vehicle manufacturers’ requirements for both fuel economy and protection. This is controlled through their recommendation of viscosity grade ( eg 5W-30 ) and specification ( eg API SN/ILSAC GF-5).
http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/castrol-edge-qa/​

In addition to the above info from Castrol, European Forumula Oils are formulated with low sulfated ash, phosphorus and sulfur (SAPS) for environmental reasons in the EU.

 

[QuantumRift]

again, the EPA requirements are pretty stringent, so car makers HAVE to use synthetic oils to meed the fleet requirements for MPG, and hence, they have to recommend it in the manuals to the owners to keep that mileage up there. LoL.


At least we are not subject to the same "Mazda-fiasco" that has caused many rotary engine owners consternation due to oil ratings. In short, and I'm using my memory of this: Mazda had specified, let me see, a 5w-20 oil for their rotary engines, to meet US EPA standards for mileage. However, in Europe. the same engines had a 5-30 oil specified. US users were experiencing engine wear and failure of components after, what, 20,000 miles or so. Engines ran hotter, oil was too thin, and engines failed. Mazda has ceased manufacturing the wankel engines en masse, maybe do to the failure issue. But in any case, engine failures and litigation may have killed it. And Mazda changed the vehicle warranty.


I found this for reference:

http://blog.cargurus.com/2011/10/12/mazda-rx-8-ends-production-demise-of-the-rotary


interesting reading.

Some manufacturers specify that synthetic oil is required to maintain the new car warranty. Most of these have tended to be high performance or luxury brands, since buyers of these types of cars are typically not adverse to the extra expense of a synthetic oil change.

However, specification of synthetic oil is spreading down toward the more common brands, as requirements for extracting the best possible MPG out of engines has increased, and will increase in the near future (per CAFE regulations). Synthetic oil provides a slight MPG advantage over conventional oils, but synthetics are also often used to minimize problems with turbos, GDI, and higher revving but smaller engines, and for longer change intervals, etc. There is a risk of doing this, since competitors often use this in selling situations to highlight the lower cost of maintenance for their vehicles compared to those cars which specify synthetic oil. So requiring synthetic oil is not something a manufacturer would do without some good reason.

One non-luxury/non-performance brand that has moved to synthetics is Toyota. Here is a list of Toyota vehicles that specify synthetic motor oil in order to maintain the manufacturer's warranty:
http://www.actontoyota.com/toyota-models-requiring-synthetic-oil.htm

 

[jnc2000]

ZDDP regulation also didn't help....

 

[Mark_888]

again, the EPA requirements are pretty stringent, so car makers HAVE to use synthetic oils to meed the fleet requirements for MPG, and hence, they have to recommend it in the manuals to the owners to keep that mileage up there. LoL.


At least we are not subject to the same "Mazda-fiasco" that has caused many rotary engine owners consternation due to oil ratings. In short, and I'm using my memory of this: Mazda had specified, let me see, a 5w-20 oil for their rotary engines, to meet US EPA standards for mileage. However, in Europe. the same engines had a 5-30 oil specified. US users were experiencing engine wear and failure of components after, what, 20,000 miles or so. Engines ran hotter, oil was too thin, and engines failed. Mazda has ceased manufacturing the wankel engines en masse, maybe do to the failure issue. But in any case, engine failures and litigation may have killed it. And Mazda changed the vehicle warranty.


I found this for reference:

http://blog.cargurus.com/2011/10/12/mazda-rx-8-ends-production-demise-of-the-rotary


interesting reading.

The National Highway Traffic Safety Administration (NHTSA) regulates CAFE standards. The EPA only measures the MPG according to a standard methodology (they do regulate emissions for cars and everything else).

Although Toyota obtains slightly improved MPG for CAFE by specifying synthetic in most of their fleet, they don't need synthetic to meet the standards since they make more hybrids than any other manufacturer and the Prius is far and away the best selling hybrid. The fact that they make smaller, more fuel efficient engines that run hotter than before for maximum efficiency (some of which use turbo, GDI, etc) is also a part of the requirement for synthetics. Note that some Toyota engines do not yet specify synthetic as required to maintain their warranty (even though synthetics will not void the warranty) so it can't all be based on CAFE.

The issue of the Mazda rotary engine and synthetics was unique due to the design of the engine.

 

[martyk]

Cann't find Mobil 1 Advanced Fuel Economy, 5w-20. Just 0w-20 and 0w-30.


Regards,
Marty

 

[Mark_888]

Cann't find Mobil 1 Advanced Fuel Economy, 5w-20. Just 0w-20 and 0w-30.

If you are talking about the US, Mobil 1 0w-20 and Mobil 1 0w-30 are only available as AFE. They are sold at Walmart and most auto parts stores (but usually cheaper at Walmart due to 5 quart jug special pricing). It is possible that they are out of stock were you looked, so check the shelf labels. They sometimes run out on weekends.

 

[jnc2000]

Cann't find Mobil 1 Advanced Fuel Economy, 5w-20. Just 0w-20 and 0w-30.


Regards,
Marty

I would not touch AFE.... the numbers speak for themselves...

http://www.mobil.com/usa-english/motoroil/files/mobil_1_product_guide.pdf

 

[EXBMWGUY]

I would not touch AFE.... the numbers speak for themselves...

http://www.mobil.com/usa-english/motoroil/files/mobil_1_product_guide.pdf

Could you please be a little more specific with your comment? What specs trouble you with the AFE (0w20 in particular)? My application is MN climate, 5.0, 7,500 or < oil change intervals and rare short trips.

 

[QuantumRift]

Yea, I liked the German Castrol as I used it in my old Isuzu. But after I got on their website and read some more, I sure see your points. But it's very hard to find, and guess I'll just stick with Mobile1, etc and be very happy for it!

Yea, the Mazda rotary engine is OK, and they can last a long time (more than 20K or 30K miles), and the European versions doing well as they ere running 5w-30 oils. I think the issue is that users here in the US were switching to 30w oils and when the engines failed, Mazda was denying claims or some such thing. I don't remember all the specifics, and that's the topic of different discussion.

d

The National Highway Traffic Safety Administration (NHTSA) regulates CAFE standards. The EPA only measures the MPG according to a standard methodology (they do regulate emissions for cars and everything else).

Although Toyota obtains slightly improved MPG for CAFE by specifying synthetic in most of their fleet, they don't need synthetic to meet the standards since they make more hybrids than any other manufacturer and the Prius is far and away the best selling hybrid. The fact that they make smaller, more fuel efficient engines that run hotter than before for maximum efficiency (some of which use turbo, GDI, etc) is also a part of the requirement for synthetics. Note that some Toyota engines do not yet specify synthetic as required to maintain their warranty (even though synthetics will not void the warranty) so it can't all be based on CAFE.

The issue of the Mazda rotary engine and synthetics was unique due to the design of the engine.

 

[Mark_888]

I would not touch AFE.... the numbers speak for themselves...

http://www.mobil.com/usa-english/motoroil/files/mobil_1_product_guide.pdf

OK, I give up. What specific numbers are you talking about, and why are they bad?

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[jnc2000]

There are a number of good writeups and discussion threads about this... but since the API (read= EPA) certification for new motor oils ZDDP (an anti-wear agent). The introduction of 5w20 was for show, and was nothing more than a dog and pony to appease the new CAFE regulations.

Oil shearing should be a big concern. I don't know about you guys but I frequently make use of that right pedal. As the oil heats up, it begins to shear, and the viscosity quickly changes.

If an SAE 50 oil at 260°F is as thin as an SAE 20 oil at 190°F, imagine how thin the oil film becomes when you are using an SAE 5W-20 and your engine overheats. When an engine overheats, the oil film becomes dangerously thin and can rupture.

The bottom line is OE's often stipulate an oil which might not be best suited for your car / driving habits and conditions. Wear will occur on your typical valve-train components, which ends up compromising the engine life expectancy. Lower ZDDP levels have shown excessive wear in as little as 30k miles when following the manufactures service intervals. Dropping to a AFE oil may not offer the best protection, particularly if you plan on keeping the car a long time... in the end ML says it best:

Every fluid is a compromise. Oils recommended by the auto manufacturers seem to compromise protection from wear under severe conditions to gain fuel economy and catalyst durability. It is important to recognize that to use a product that offers more protection from wear will most likely compromise your warranty. Thicker oils also compromise cold temperature flow, which may be of concern depending upon climate and season.

The best protection against wear is probably a product that is a little thicker (such as SAE 10W-30 or 15W-40) and has more antiwear additives than the oils that support the warranty. The best oil for your vehicle depends on your driving habits, the age of your engine and the climate you drive in, but it is not necessarily the type of oil specified in the owner’s manual or stamped on the dipstick.

http://www.machinerylubrication.com/Read/518/motor-oils
http://www.lnengineering.com/oil.html

 

[Mark_888]

There are a number of good writeups and discussion threads about this... but since the API (read= EPA) certification for new motor oils ZDDP (an anti-wear agent). The introduction of 5w20 was for show, and was nothing more than a dog and pony to appease the new CAFE regulations.

Oil shearing should be a big concern. I don't know about you guys but I frequently make use of that right pedal. As the oil heats up, it begins to shear, and the viscosity quickly changes.

The bottom line is OE's often stipulate an oil which might not be best suited for your car / driving habits and conditions. Wear will occur on your typical valve-train components, which ends up compromising the engine life expectancy. Lower ZDDP levels have shown excessive wear in as little as 30k miles when following the manufactures service intervals. Dropping to a AFE oil may not offer the best protection, particularly if you plan on keeping the car a long time... in the end ML says it best:

http://www.machinerylubrication.com/Read/518/motor-oils
http://www.lnengineering.com/oil.html

There are a number of things to consider here:

1. When we are talking about Mobil 1 0W-30 AFE (Advanced Fuel Economy) we are talking about a very high quality synthetic oil. It is not going to shear, unless one is putting it in a race car (but even many race cars use Mobil 1 straight out the retail bottle). I will admit that Mobil 1 0W-20 AFE is a little thiner than most other 0W-20 or 5W-20 oils even at full operating temperature, but that is one reason why I use 0W-30 AFE.
2. I have seen the MSDS (Material Safety Data Sheet) for Mobil 1 AFE oil in some foreign country ExxonMobil websites that require them to list of all the ingredients (in the USA, the MSDS is only required to list hazardous ingredients). The AFE versions had among the highest percentage of PAO/Ester base Stocks (group IV and V), and used less hydrocracked mineral oil (group III) than the others. One advantage of a true synthetic group IV or V base stock is that it requires less viscosity-index improvers than what's needed with a conventional petroleum stock, or even lower-end Group III (hydrocracked mineral oil) synthetics such as Castrol Syntec or Pennzoil Platinum.
3. Slightly lower ZDDP levels (phosphorus and zinc) have not shown any wear problems in newer engines with roller cams. Engines with flat tappet cams do need extra ZDDP, especially during engine break-in, even above what is allowed by API current SN specification, but these are typically found in older engines.
4. Motor Oils formulated with high levels of ZDDP will compromise long-term durability of catalytic converters and are not API certified to meet the specifications of most American and Asian cars. This is why the premium Amsoil &#8220;Signature&#8221; synthetic motor oil (that does so well in wear tests) is not API certified, and using it could void the warranty on your emissions system (this does not apply to lower quality Amsoil motor oils, which are no better quality than you can get from any other vendor, and have lower levels of ZDDP).

 

[Kevinc5a]

I use valvoline 5 w 30 synthetic. Mobil 1 is very good too. Both are approved by BMW and Mercedes. I use 5w30 because I live in a warm climate.

Mobil 1 0W40 is the only Mobil 1 formulation meeting the Mercedes spec. It also meets VW, Porsche and BMW specifications. (Others may meet those as well.) Check the label. It is also marked as European Car Formula.

 

[Mark_888]

Mobil 1 0W40 is the only Mobil 1 formulation meeting the Mercedes spec. It also meets VW, Porsche and BMW specifications. (Others may meet those as well.) Check the label. It is also marked as European Car Formula.

Which means it is not suitable for the Hyundai Genesis (or most other Asian or American cars). The higher levels of ZDDP do not meet manufacturer specs and will void the warranty on the emissions system. Also, the extra viscosity will lower fuel mileage and slightly reduce HP. There are plenty of high quality synthetic motor oils that do meet Hyundai specs that provide excellent engine protection.

 

[martyk]

I got Mobil 1 0w-30 AFE. They are sold at Walmart and I paid 24.97 for 5 quart jug and 6.97 for 1 Qt (3). Thanks to everyone for your input and thank you Mark for help.

Marty

 

[jnc2000]

Use what you want... and I'll use what I want.

The bottom line is as the oil heats up viscosity changes, and the protective nature of the oil drops. I'll continue to monitor my Genesis with the scan gauge, oil analysis etc... Feel free to do as you please regarding your car.

Higher aluminum and iron content on my OCI changes on the Acura and Genesis led me to do some research. The end result was my choice oil OE recommendation was resulting in more wear when high stress driving was involved. By no means am I light on my cars... and I want the best protection possible.... warranty be damned.

The manufacture must PROVE that my oil caused the failure (if I do have a failure). With my engineering background they'll have a fun time doing that... given my thorough documentation and record keeping. Besides, if something fails on anyone of my cars due to an error on my part I'd eat the cost - you won't see me whining to a dealer due to something I broke.

When you mod, or change anything outside the OE's given parameters you have to assess the calculated risk. There is always room for improvement on any component - no matter who the manufacture is.

 

[Mark_888]

The manufacture must PROVE that my oil caused the failure (if I do have a failure). With my engineering background they'll have a fun time doing that... given my thorough documentation and record keeping. Besides, if something fails on anyone of my cars due to an error on my part I'd eat the cost - you won't see me whining to a dealer due to something I broke.

If you have a general engine problem, it would be hard for Hyundai to prove that your oil caused the problem. I agree on that.

But if you emission system has problems, and Hyundai finds out you have been using a high zinc/phosphorous motor oil (higher than the SM or SN specs allow), then it would not be hard at all for them to successfully deny your warranty claim on the emissions system (catalytic converter, etc).

 

[jnc2000]

Thank goodness for cat deletes.... a tig welder, some good ol fashion T-304, and an o2 bung fixes that really quick

 

[RSPEC429]

In addition to the above info from Castrol, European Forumula Oils are formulated with low sulfated ash, phosphorus and sulfur (SAPS) for environmental reasons in the EU.

Just to correct you, the universally loved "German Castrol" is not a victim of the lower SAPS requirement. The only reason why I know this is because of my BMW; LL01 rating, which is what GC is, is what is used for vehicles in the US. LL04 rated oils are used in Europe of SAPS. German Castrol is not an LL04 rated oil and therefor is not affected by SAPS.

 

[homeofstone]

FYI-

Valvoline SynPower 5W-30 approvals/performance levels
API SL/CF
ACEA A3/B4-10
MB-229.5
GM LL-A-025, LL-B-025
VW 502.00 and 505.00
BMW LL-01
Recommended for use where Fiat 9.55535.G1 is specified.


SynPower 0W-40
Premium fully synthetic passenger car motor oil - Provides the ultimate performance with extra long-drain interval
Performance Levels/ Approvals
API SJ/CF, ACEA A3, B3, B4, MB Approval 229.3, 229.1, VW 501.01, 502.00, 505.00, , BMW LL-98