2015 Genesis compares to …

[sandy]

You are very welcome.

But seriously, I did not say what you claim I said. Advertising is not worthless, and I never said it was. Spending money on car advertising to make people aware of the features, prices, warranty, buyers assurance, or whatever, is very useful and I never suggested anything different.

What I said is that many times marketing "people" make claims about things they really don't know much about, such as what cars the Genesis competes with even before it goes on sale. It competes with whatever cars shoppers decide it competes with, not with what they decide it competes with. So-called "positioning" is highly dubious IMO. Obviously, a car company may want to decide whether their car is supposed to be a sport sedan (firm suspension) or a luxo-cruiser (complaint suspension), but trying to argue about whether it competes with specific cars such as Avalon, Lexus ES, Lexus GS, or Lexus LS is useless, because some people will cross shop all of the cars against the Genesis. Some people will consider a Loaded Genesis to get something similar to Lexus LS for a lot less money, and some people will get a Base Genesis that has a lot more features, etc than a similarly priced Avalon.

Anyone reading the discussions on this forum about what other cars buyers have shopped along with the Genesis would understand what I am saying. Having read almost every post on this forum since January 2009, I am surprised myself at the diversity of cars others considered before buying a Genesis, or are considering switching to for their next car.

On top of all that, is what the engineers were benchmarking against when they designed the car, which is a totally different story from market positioning. Relatively few Genesis owners would spend the money on the cars the Genesis engineers benchmarked against.

OK. My mistake. I thought you said the purpose of the ad industry was to convince companies to spend money of advertising. Hey, wait a minute..that is what you did say.

But I do get your point. However, when marketing people position a lower price car like the 1G Genesis against a BMW or MB, its not done because they believe those owners are their best prospects, but because they want their best prospects to be motivated by the association.

 

[Mark_888]

OK. My mistake. I thought you said the purpose of the ad industry was to convince companies to spend money of advertising. Hey, wait a minute..that is what you did say.

But I didn't say there is anything wrong with spending money on advertising, per se. I just don't take as gospel anything a marketing person says, especially if they were to claim that the Genesis competes against 7 series instead of 5 series, or 5 series instead of 7 series, or whatever the claims made in previous posts in this thread. Because the Genesis has been priced so much lower than comparable cars, it is very difficult to really identify what cars it compete with. My point is that the buyers determine that, not the marketing people. If the marketing people are good, they might be able to figure out after the fact what happened.

 

[italiabrain]

But I didn't say there is anything wrong with spending money on advertising, per se...

While I disagree on the later post also (I definitely think you implied that advertising was useless); your earlier post definitely did claim that nobody cares what cars the Genesis is compared to and that is patently false.

 

[Mark_888]

While I disagree on the later post also (I definitely think you implied that advertising was useless); your earlier post definitely did claim that nobody cares what cars the Genesis is compared to and that is patently false.

I did not imply that advertising is useless. Advertising is critical for companies like Hyundai that have to overcome a less than stellar brand image, or when trying to break into the luxury market which is new to them.

But if it were up to advertising people, companies would increase their advertising budgets four-fold. If you left up to insurance agents about how much insurance you need, you would end up spending a lot more on insurance than you need, but I am not suggesting that insurance is useless either (I personally have pretty good converge for home and car).

I also did not claim that no one cares what cars the Genesis is compared to. Obviously, every Genesis owner would like to think their car compares to a BMW 5/7 or MB E/S, or even a Bentley. But I am not talking about that, I am talking about which other cars a Genesis buyer actually considered buying. At least for 2015 a Genesis Ultimate is getting closer in price to MB E or BMW 5, and some people may cross shop them with a Genesis Ultimate Trim level, but I don't think most Genesis buyers will be considering the Ultimate trim level unless the selling price is discounted quite a bit.

But what ever cars are cross-shopped against the Genesis is up to the consumer, not the marketing people (unless the marketing people make big adjustments in the price).

 

[italiabrain]

I did not imply that advertising is useless. Advertising is critical for companies like Hyundai that have to overcome a less than stellar brand image, or when trying to break into the luxury market which is new to them.

But if it were up to advertising people, companies would increase their advertising budgets four-fold. If you left up to insurance agents about how much insurance you need, you would end up spending a lot more on insurance than you need, but I am not suggesting that insurance is useless either (I personally have pretty good converge for home and car).

I also did not claim that no one cares what cars the Genesis is compared to. Obviously, every Genesis owner would like to think their car compares to a BMW 5/7 or MB E/S, or even a Bentley. But I am not talking about that, I am talking about which other cars a Genesis buyer actually considered buying. At least for 2015 a Genesis Ultimate is getting closer in price to MB E or BMW 5, and some people may cross shop them with a Genesis Ultimate Trim level, but I don't think most Genesis buyers will be considering the Ultimate trim level unless the selling price is discounted quite a bit.

But what ever cars are cross-shopped against the Genesis is up to the consumer, not the marketing people (unless the marketing people make big adjustments in the price).

If you're being honest in this post you're delusional. Read posts 9 and 10 again and tell me you never said no one cares...

 

[Mark_888]

If you're being honest in this post you're delusional. Read posts 9 and 10 again and tell me you never said no one cares...

I said that no one cares what a marketing person thinks the car compares to. Each person (buyer) will decide that for themselves. We are not robots and do not take orders from marketing people.

 

[YEH]

I belong to Hyundai Think Tank and have completed several online surveys on this subject. The problem is, having read this forum for almost 5.5 years, the range of cars that Genesis sedan competes with is very large, and cannot be narrowed down to saying exactly what cars it competes with.

Just b/c buyers have come from many diff. type of vehicles (including pickups) doesn't mean that all those vehicles compete w/ the Genesis.

Some people are coming from sports coupes, large FWD family sedans and even pickups and minivans b/c they are at a diff. point in their life and/or for other reasons such as changes to their economic situation.

And really, it's not that diff. for the compact luxury sedans w/ many owners having previously owned a loaded non-luxury sedan, a sports coupe, SUVs/CUVs, minivan, etc.

But that doesn't change the fact that when a buyer is looking for a sedan of a certain size, RWD (as opposed to FWD) and w/ the option of a V8 - the list of potential vehicles narrow considerably.

And no one here is implying that buyers are simply receiving orders from marketing people - but like it or not, marketing has a significant influence over most people (there's a reason why Bose comes to mind for many people when it come to audio sound even tho most audiophiles scoff at most Bose products).

And it's not just marketing, but what is written in reviews and comparisons.

There's a reason why the Equus can command a higher pricepoint than the Acura RLX even tho the latter has the whole luxury brand and dealer network going for it, along w/ many more years in the marketplace - and the Equus being included in comparison tests w/ the other flagship sedans whereas the RLX is not - plays into it.

The same thing will hold for the 2G Genesis, now that its pricing is closer to that of its Japanese rivals and was always true for the 5.0.

While I disagree on the later post also (I definitely think you implied that advertising was useless); your earlier post definitely did claim that nobody cares what cars the Genesis is compared to and that is patently false.

That's typical of his MO.

He says something that's overreaching and that he can't back-up and then tried to evade that fact by bringing in extraneous points/changing the issue.

 

[Mark_888]

Just b/c buyers have come from many diff. type of vehicles (including pickups) doesn't mean that all those vehicles compete w/ the Genesis.

I am not talking about what vehicle they came from, but what other vehicles they actually considered buying. Having read many posts on this forum during last 5.5 years, I am amazed at the diversity of what other cars Genesis buyers considered and are considering in the future. Part of that has to do with the diversity of the Genesis itself. It is hard to compare the 2015 V6 Base Trim model at $38,000 with the 2015 V8 Ultimate which is $55,700 (and we haven't seen the AWD R-Spec version coming later). Depends on which Trim level you get. The Genesis sedan is not really a single car model. Same can be said for many other cars, such as the Lexus LS460 which comes in quite a few different trims, including base luxo-cruiser, fully loaded long wheel base luxury car, hybrid, F-Sport, etc.

 

[YEH]

^ And that's the sane for most vehicles, esp. for potential buyers who are flexible (i.e. - don't need a minivan or 3 row CUV due to kids).

You think buyers of the Sonata have only cross-shopped it w/ the Camry, Accord, etc.?

Or the 3 Series w/ the C Class, A4, IS, etc.?

The point is, while the type of vehicles might vary for a certain group of more flexible buyers - buyers still keep in mind what the Genesis is - a RWD luxury sedan.

And that holds esp. true for the R-Spec buyers who generally were focusing on RWD sedans with power and opting for the V8 over V6 models.

Conversely, Hyundai lost many potential buyers in the snow belt due to it being RWD w/o an AWD option.

And being a new entrant in the luxury market and one under a mass market brand (that is still working on its brand strength) - the Genesis was a $33-45k risk that buyers were going to take only after doing their due diligence.

And as the 2G Genesis has gone up in price - buyers are going to assess the new price-value quotient.

Even if certain buyers are considering models not in the luxury, midsize segment (included in this are the RLX, XTS and MKS), they will be assessing the 2G Genesis on how it fairs in the price-value quotient.

 

[Mark_888]

You think buyers of the Sonata have only cross-shopped it w/ the Camry, Accord, etc.?

Or the 3 Series w/ the C Class, A4, IS, etc.?

The point is, while the type of vehicles might vary for a certain group of more flexible buyers - buyers still keep in mind what the Genesis is - a RWD luxury sedan.

And that holds esp. true for the R-Spec buyers who generally were focusing on RWD sedans with power and opting for the V8 over V6 models.

Conversely, Hyundai lost many potential buyers in the snow belt due to it being RWD w/o an AWD option.

And being a new entrant in the luxury market and one under a mass market brand (that is still working on its brand strength) - the Genesis was a $33-45k risk that buyers were going to take only after doing their due diligence.

And as the 2G Genesis has gone up in price - buyers are going to assess the new price-value quotient.

Even if certain buyers are considering models not in the luxury, midsize segment (included in this are the RLX, XTS and MKS), they will be assessing the 2G Genesis on how it fairs in the price-value quotient.

I am glad you mentioned "buyers" so many many times in your post. My main point was that it is up to the buyers, not the marketing people. Marketing people may have opinions, wishes, hopes, etc, about it, but it is not up to them in the final analysis.

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[YEH]

^ Yes - we all get that.

But at the same time, buyers make certain calculations and assessments based on certain perceptions (much of which is made up by advertising, reviews, etc.).

Let me try to make this as simple as I can for you.

Take the Equus for example.

At its $60k or so pricepoint - a buyer could be looking at various CUVs or even non-luxury branded BOF SUVs like the Denali or Land Cruiser.

But let's say a buyer is looking for a sedan.

For that pricepoint - they could be looking at a decently equipped midsize E Class or 5 Series.

In looking at the Equus as an option, they are taking into account more features and greater room/space.

If having greater room/space is premium then the Equus would be a more fitting choice (since the Germans in that size range are either out of their pricepoint or more than what they want to pay/want a V8 instead of a 6 cylinder).

It would be a diff. calculation/assessment if the Equus was seen as being a midsize competitor and not a flagship competitor that just happens to bring value into the equation.

Heck, if those things didn't matter - then a buyer would spend a lot less $$ and just get an Avalon.

Hyundai improved the interior, etc. of the 2G Genesis b/c they know that it is impt. for the Genesis to be seen as a competitor in the midsize luxury segment in order for buyers to well, buy into the price hike.

This is the reason why despite not having a luxury marque and separate luxury dealer network, the Equus is priced higher than the Acura RLX and why the 2G Genesis will also likely be priced higher than the TLX (w/ the 5.0 being priced significantly higher).

It's pretty much the same thing when it came to the repositioning of the new CTS as a bonafide, midsize luxury sedan.

If the CTS was still regarded as being more of a 3 Series/C Class competitor, buyers wouldn't be willing to fork over what Cadillac is now charging for the CTS.

Same thing on the non-luxury front when the Altima (along w/ the Maxima) jumped segments, as well as the Taurus.

So yes - a buyer who ends up w/ the Altima may have not only considered the other mainstream midsize sedans (Sonata, Accord, Fusion, Camry, etc.), but maybe sedans in the segment below or above, as well as crossovers, coupes, etc.

But in taking into account the Altima - buyers generally know where it fits in - in the scheme of things (taking into account the size, features/amenities, level of luxury, cost, etc.).

 

[PMCErnie]

All this verbiage. The purpose of the marketer is to lure in buyers.

 

[dareaction]

Midsize RWD luxury class includes: Genesis/ Lexus GS/ BMW 5-Series/ Cadillac CTS/ Infiniti M/Q70/ Audi A6/ Jaguar XF/ Acura RLX/ Mercedes Benz E-Class

Notice I said Midsize RWD luxury class when cars like the Acura RLX and base Audi A6 are FWD based in their base configurations. There is a belief system in this class and it has much to do with presence and quality. That is where the last Genesis stumbled and where cars like the RLX continue to struggle in. Take note that Hyundai took a gamble on significant weight increase to develop a significantly stiffer "bank vault-like" platform. Solidity is key in these segments as is drive quality (another significant reevaluation for the new Genesis). It is what makes people flock to the Mercedes E-class. As I said earlier presence is another main attribute and greatly helps make a car more expensive looking. As Peter Schreyer said:

"Rear wheel engines sit further back from the front tires, which permits a greater length from the front wheel’s center to the first door cut, known as the ‘prestige distance’ in Germany. This in turn, pushes the A-pillar further back and creates a longer hood, which drops down to a shorter front upright overhang. These lengths help define the right proportions to instill a feeling of power and dignity."


Why else do you think Hyundai took it upon themselves to significantly stretch the wheelbase of the 2G genesis 2.9 in? At 118.5 in the wheel base is much longer than second in class 5-series (116.9 in) or if we really want to reach for the stars, the Maserati Ghibli at 118.0 in despite no noticeable increase in vehicle length. They did this to increase the prestige factor of the new Genesis. It already had more interior space than every other midsize RWD luxury sedan.


Occupants of the Midsize FWD luxury class include vehicles like the Acura TLX, Lexus ES, Lincoln MKZ, Buick Lacrosse, and Volvo S80.

 

[Mark_888]

Midsize RWD luxury class includes: Genesis/ Lexus GS/ BMW 5-Series/ Cadillac CTS/ Infiniti M/Q70/ Audi A6/ Jaguar XF/ Acura RLX/ Mercedes Benz E-Class

Notice I said Midsize RWD luxury class when cars like the Acura RLX and base Audi A6 are FWD based in their base configurations. There is a belief system in this class and it has much to do with presence and quality. That is where the last Genesis stumbled and where cars like the RLX continue to struggle in. Take note that Hyundai took a gamble on significant weight increase to develop a significantly stiffer "bank vault-like" platform. Solidity is key in these segments as is drive quality (another significant reevaluation for the new Genesis). It is what makes people flock to the Mercedes E-class. As I said earlier presence is another main attribute and greatly helps make a car more expensive looking. As Peter Schreyer said:

"Rear wheel engines sit further back from the front tires, which permits a greater length from the front wheel’s center to the first door cut, known as the ‘prestige distance’ in Germany. This in turn, pushes the A-pillar further back and creates a longer hood, which drops down to a shorter front upright overhang. These lengths help define the right proportions to instill a feeling of power and dignity."


Why else do you think Hyundai took it upon themselves to significantly stretch the wheelbase of the 2G genesis 2.9 in? At 118.5 in the wheel base is much longer than second in class 5-series (116.9 in) or if we really want to reach for the stars, the Maserati Ghibli at 118.0 in despite no noticeable increase in vehicle length. They did this to increase the prestige factor of the new Genesis. It already had more interior space than every other midsize RWD luxury sedan.


Occupants of the Midsize FWD luxury class include vehicles like the Acura TLX, Lexus ES, Lincoln MKZ, Buick Lacrosse, and Volvo S80.

You are talking a lot about specifications, RWD vs FWD drivetrain, handling, etc. That is fine and it is the role of advertising to make people aware of those things. Just like the Super Bowl commercial for the 2G Genesis made people aware of some very nice safety features (automatically stopping the car).

I get a little bit more skeptical when advertising people think they can sell me the "prestige" factor of their cars, especially if it does not already have that factor bestowed on them before-hand outside of advertising. A car may or may not be prestigious, but that depends on the collective consciousness of the public over time, and is not as subject to advertising propaganda as advertisers would like one to believe. About the only thing advertisers can do in this regard is to make the public aware of various surveys on customer satisfaction, reliability, safety, etc published by reputable sources.

 

[dareaction]

Um yea. So good sir care to enlighten us as to which particular cars this competes with?

Is it the Cadillac XTS? Lincoln MKS? Chrysler 300? How about 3-Series, C-Class and IS? Better yet Acura TL, Lexus ES Lincoln MKZ?

I'm not going off what any old advertisers say I'm going off the initial reviews with the insight of what modifications were made to the new Genesis to better allow it to fully compete in the Midsize RWD luxury class.

 

[Mark_888]

Um yea. So good sir care to enlighten us as to which particular cars this competes with?

Is it the Cadillac XTS? Lincoln MKS? Chrysler 300? How about 3-Series, C-Class and IS? Better yet Acura TL, Lexus ES Lincoln MKZ?

I'm not going off what any old advertisers say I'm going off the initial reviews with the insight of what modifications were made to the new Genesis to better allow it to fully compete in the Midsize RWD luxury class.

Who are you asking? It helps if you use the quote button.

 

[dareaction]

Who are you asking? It helps if you use the quote button.

You...who else?

 

[YEH]

I get a little bit more skeptical when advertising people think they can sell me the "prestige" factor of their cars, especially if it does not already have that factor bestowed on them before-hand outside of advertising. A car may or may not be prestigious, but that depends on the collective consciousness of the public over time, and is not as subject to advertising propaganda as advertisers would like one to believe. About the only thing advertisers can do in this regard is to make the public aware of various surveys on customer satisfaction, reliability, safety, etc published by reputable sources.

Again, it's not just advertising.

The Genesis is classified as a luxury/premium sedan by JD Power, Consumer Reports, IIHS, etc.

The Genesis was named the 2014 "Car of Texas" by the Texas Auto Writers Association (TAWA) and competed in the Mid-size luxury segment.

The Chrysler 300 won for the Full-size segment - and JD Power, Consumer Reports, IIHS, etc. also categorized the 300 as a full-size, large family car, etc. and not a luxury sedan.

All this plays into how the Genesis is perceived and whether the Genesis can command a higher pricepoint than the 300 (which competes more w/ the Azera and Cadenza on price for the V6), much less the comparable offering from the likes of Acura.

In addition, public perception tends to lag, but the 3G CTS (which competes head to head w/ the midsize Germans) upon launch was immediately more prestigious than its 2 predecessors (which competed more against the compacts).

If it weren't - no one would be willing to pay $10k more for the 3G CTS than what buyers were paying for the 2G CTS sedan.

Hyundai could have done what Acura did (and Lexus to a degree) and spend the $$ on a luxury brand/dealer network but saved $$ by simply using its existing FWD platforms.

In fact, for the Korean market, Hyundai is doing just that with its new FWD luxury sedan (the AG).

Even if the AG had been launched w/ a separate luxury brand, it was going to be looked at/perceived differently from the Genesis sedan, even tho the Genesis wasn't launched w/ a luxury badge.

And when Hyundai launches is RWD compact sport sedan (the RK) in a couple of years - it will be impt. that the RK is seen more in line w/ the likes of the 3 Series, Q50, etc. rather than the likes of the ILX, Verano, etc. - even if it ends up being closer to the latter in pricing.

And it does not really matter that buyers (who are flexible) may be cross-shopping a loaded midsize FWD sedan (like the Optima), a CUV or whatever.

 

[Mark_888]

Again, it's not just advertising.

The Genesis is classified as a luxury/premium sedan by JD Power, Consumer Reports, IIHS, etc.

The Genesis was named the 2014 "Car of Texas" by the Texas Auto Writers Association (TAWA) and competed in the Mid-size luxury segment.

The Chrysler 300 won for the Full-size segment - and JD Power, Consumer Reports, IIHS, etc. also categorized the 300 as a full-size, large family car, etc. and not a luxury sedan.

All this plays into how the Genesis is perceived and whether the Genesis can command a higher pricepoint than the 300 (which competes more w/ the Azera and Cadenza on price for the V6), much less the comparable offering from the likes of Acura.

In addition, public perception tends to lag, but the 3G CTS (which competes head to head w/ the midsize Germans) upon launch was immediately more prestigious than its 2 predecessors (which competed more against the compacts).

If it weren't - no one would be willing to pay $10k more for the 3G CTS than what buyers were paying for the 2G CTS sedan.

Hyundai could have done what Acura did (and Lexus to a degree) and spend the $$ on a luxury brand/dealer network but saved $$ by simply using its existing FWD platforms.

In fact, for the Korean market, Hyundai is doing just that with its new FWD luxury sedan (the AG).

Even if the AG had been launched w/ a separate luxury brand, it was going to be looked at/perceived differently from the Genesis sedan, even tho the Genesis wasn't launched w/ a luxury badge.

And when Hyundai launches is RWD compact sport sedan (the RK) in a couple of years - it will be impt. that the RK is seen more in line w/ the likes of the 3 Series, Q50, etc. rather than the likes of the ILX, Verano, etc. - even if it ends up being closer to the latter in pricing.

And it does not really matter that buyers (who are flexible) may be cross-shopping a loaded midsize FWD sedan (like the Optima), a CUV or whatever.

I agree, it is not just advertising. In fact, it is not advertising at all. The 2015 Genesis is what it is, a mid-size (or slightly larger) luxury car. Marketing has nothing to do with it. What the Genesis is cross-shopped against by consumers depends on the consumer, not the marketing.

I saw a K900 commercial where it was "marketed" as the anti-luxury car. In other words, forget what you previously knew about luxury and prestige marketing. Only you can decide for yourself.
[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CcZIo_Njnnc"]Kia K900 Commercial "Preconceived Notions" - YouTube[/ame]

 

[YEH]

I agree, it is not just advertising. In fact, it is not advertising at all. The 2015 Genesis is what it is, a mid-size (or slightly larger) luxury car. Marketing has nothing to do with it. What the Genesis is cross-shopped against by consumers depends on the consumer, not the marketing.

Again, it's not just marketing - but what auto pubs, auto groups, etc. classify the Genesis, not to mention common sense (RWD sedan, luxury features, V8 engine available, etc.).

II saw a K900 commercial where it was "marketed" as the anti-luxury car. In other words, forget what you previously knew about luxury and prestige marketing. Only you can decide for yourself.
Kia K900 Commercial "Preconceived Notions" - YouTube

That's not much diff. from the Audi A8 Good Night Luxury commercial.

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RIngRL1Grfo"]Audi Commercial "Good Night Luxury" (HD) - YouTube[/ame]

So I guess the A8 isn't luxury to you.


You're taking that K900 commercial way too literally if you don't think it is advertising the K900 as a luxury sedan (the gist isn't that the K900 isn't a luxury sedan, but that it is one despite all the old notions about tradition, etc.).

And speaking of the K900, Hyundai and Kia sold 545 of the Equus and K900 (which right now is only available in V8 from and priced at $60k) w/ the K900 selling nearly as well as the Equus (selling 260 for the month).

Do you really think 260 buyers would have ponied up $55-60k for a Kia if they didn't think it was a luxury sedan?

Along the same lines, would people be willing to pony about half a million plus for a Koenigsegg if they didn't consider it a hypercar? Despite not having the tradition/prestige of Lamborghini (which arose from a tractor-maker), much less Ferrari.