• Car enthusiast? Join us on Cars Connected! iOS | Android | Desktop
  • Hint: Use a descriptive title for your new message
    If you're looking for help and want to draw people in who can assist you, use a descriptive subject title when posting your message. In other words, "I need help with my car" could be about anything and can easily be overlooked by people who can help. However, "I need help with my transmission" will draw interest from people who can help with a transmission specific issue. Be as descriptive as you can. Please also post in the appropriate forum. The "Lounge" is for introducing yourself. If you need help with your G70, please post in the G70 section - and so on... This message can be closed by clicking the X in the top right corner.

Aftermarket Oil Filters

What's the evidence to support the claim that the K&N filter is the worst filter on the market? And please do not cite that worn out, unsubstantiated pseudo 'test'...


First, I'm a 40+ year member of SAE. Second, I spent a lot of my career working with engines including selecting air cleaners. Third, oil-wetted filters are a joke to anyone that understands engines and the need for good air filters.

As for proof, this is as good as it gets: http://www.billswebspace.com/AirFilterTest.htm and is how we evaluated air cleaners.

One of the more profound statements from this independent test is:

In 60 minutes the AC Filter accumulated 574gms of dirt and passed only 0.4gms. After only 24 minutes the K&N had accumulated 221gms of dirt but passed 7.0gms. Compared to the AC, the K&N “plugged up” nearly 3 times faster, passed 18 times more dirt and captured 37% less dirt. See the data tables for a complete summary of these comparisons.
 
427435. Thanks for that test data.
 
More confusion on the oil filter saga.

I will attach some photos. In these photos, you will see that the right filter for my TAU 5.0 2012 is NOT what I understand most of you say it should be.

AND the dealer sold me the wrong filters. AFTER going out to the car to get the VIN. I got the impression there is a bit of chaos on two different filter element holders are mounted to engines. That whole Hyundai says they have it covered they do not. However, based on my VIN he was sure he sold me the right one.

WRONG. Fortunately believe it or not a Firestone tire dealer did have the right filter in stock.

Here are the pics which clearly show the filters have to be picked right. Or as above there are the story or smashed filters inserted.

And my cap on the housing doesNOT have a pre drain valve like mentioned above.

You can see that the filter without the flange lip would Not work. It needs the sealable flange version.. Instead of what I experience as a cheapened up version with the paper ends others here use.

Comments?

ImageUploadedByTapatalk1367189215.587507.webp
ImageUploadedByTapatalk1367189230.068253.webp
ImageUploadedByTapatalk1367189243.301683.webp
ImageUploadedByTapatalk1367189263.617657.webp
 
The Firestone is the right one. The cheap one on the right from Hyundai dealer was the wrong one.
 
More confusion on the oil filter saga.

I will attach some photos. In these photos, you will see that the right filter for my TAU 5.0 2012 is NOT what I understand most of you say it should be.

AND the dealer sold me the wrong filters. AFTER going out to the car to get the VIN. I got the impression there is a bit of chaos on two different filter element holders are mounted to engines. That whole Hyundai says they have it covered they do not. However, based on my VIN he was sure he sold me the right one.

WRONG. Fortunately believe it or not a Firestone tire dealer did have the right filter in stock.

Here are the pics which clearly show the filters have to be picked right. Or as above there are the story or smashed filters inserted.

And my cap on the housing doesNOT have a pre drain valve like mentioned above.

You can see that the filter without the flange lip would Not work. It needs the sealable flange version.. Instead of what I experience as a cheapened up version with the paper ends others here use.

Comments?

View attachment 2642
View attachment 2643
View attachment 2644
View attachment 2645

See Hyundai oil filter chart. I think both filters are correct just different mfg.

View attachment oil_filters.pdf
 
My 2012 5.0 Equus had the paper end filter. That's what I used to replace it.

I DO have the pre-drain plug in the filter housing but the rest appears to be the same as the pictures.
 
More confusion on the oil filter saga.
And my cap on the housing doesNOT have a pre drain valve like mentioned above.

There is a pre drain plug on yours, same as mine. It's not on the cap you un screw but on the bottom of the main filter housing. I can see it in the photo of the underside of the motor. It's that small allen head screw on the bottom. ;)
 
Oh, again THAT 10 year OLD test test?

I asked K&N directly regarding this "test" that keeps popping up, cited by 'experts'.

This is the response I got. Now, if you disagree with it, please feel FREE to contact K&N with your experience and 'call them' on this. I, and ohters I know, have used K&N filters for literally hundreds of thousands of miles, on everything from my 2012 Genny, to my Suzuki motorcycle, an '04 Envoy and on my 1990 Isuzu 2.6L SpaceCab (which, by the way has 204,000 miles on it). NONE of the vehicles has experienced any engine wear or problems. Especially my 1990 Isuzu pickup that has been running a K&N Filter since it was available for it. that's been more than a DECADE. It has no wear, burns no oil, and NONE of the engine oil analyses I've had done indicate problems with air filtration. None. Yet YOU claim they are "junk" and will wear out an engine?

...."As I've seen references to this "report" in a couple of different forums I frequent, I decided to ASK K&N about this "report"; I got a response this morning, which I am putting here VERBATIM:

============================================

Dear Doug:

That is known online as the Spicer Report and we have seen this "test" multiple times when someone is trying to defend why they do not want to go with one of our filters. Unfortunately the test is old and we disagree with the results and how it was run. When it first came out we sent a letter to Mr. Spicer about his "test" results (see below). We did not receive a response defending the test or an explanation to our questions; something we hope our customers will think about. We know our filters will filter the way your engine needs a filter to, so much that we have posted the flow, filtration and capacity tests to our filters on our website.

As a side, I would request that my e-mail not be posted in any forums; rather if the question comes up, please direct users to contact K&N directly or look at each specific filter’s test result.

For comparison, here are links to the test results for the filters specific to the Genesis cars:

33-2426: http://www.knfilters.com/dynocharts/33-2426.pdf
33-2427: http://www.knfilters.com/dynocharts/33-2427.pdf
33-2482: http://www.knfilters.com/dynocharts/33-2482.pdf
33-2958: http://www.knfilters.com/dynocharts/33-2958.pdf

Here is the letter we sent to, and we did not hear back from, Mr. Spicer:

Arlen;

I have reviewed the report that you posted and am quite puzzled over the following statements. I have added my questions following each and hope you will take the time to respond back to me.

“So, according to lab work compliant to ISO 5011, the K&N product showed performance that was significantly improved over the Testand results. So, which results are more accurate, the K&N and Southwest Research results or the results in our study? The answer to this question is not an easy one. Essentially, the results of the K&N lab results and Testand’s results are both valid and at the same time cannot be directly compared for many reasons.”


You mention that the K&N was significantly improved yet you do not comment that the “paper” filter test efficiencies were nearly the same as the Testand results.??

“K&N tested the filters under a much lower initial dirt feed rate of 0.25g/cu. meter for the first 60 grams of dirt and then completed the test at 1.0g/cu. meter for the remainder of the test. Testand, on the other hand, ran the entire test at 1.0g/cu. meter (9.8g/minute at 350 cu. ft/ minute). The implications of this may be speculative, but I would have to conclude that a slower initial feed rate to a clean filter could improve it’s initial efficiency%. This would lead to an improved overall filtering efficiency when compared to a filter tested under a more demanding initial feed rate as was the case with the Testand testing.”
Since both the paper and the K&N were tested at the same feed rate during testing at K&N, why would the paper filter efficiency not change more than a couple tenths of a percent, yet the K&N change significantly, nearly two percent? The answer here is they would not. We have chosen to continue testing at the lower initial feed rate because we feel it is a more demanding test because loading the filter faster could raise the efficiency.
In fact if you compare K&N’s test to Testand’s, the paper filter passed more than twice as much dust in K&N’s initial phase, at the lower dust feed rate, than it did in Testand’s full life at the higher rate. (1.01 grams vs. 0.4 grams)?????
This is a topic we discussed at length during your visit as it was your opinion coming here. You left here with test reports showing it was a misconception. Many times our testing has shown us that what we thought was going to happen or seemed logical, was wrong.


“With variable flow testing the filter experiences a continuous change in differential pressure resulting in a “capture and then release” of the dirt particles within the test media. According to an independent testing facility, variable flow testing is a more challenging test for filter medias and will commonly result in significantly lower efficiency numbers.”
This statement, “capture and then release” holds some validity for dry paper media but not for “oiled” media. As you observed here during testing, the test dust on a K&N filter stays in place very well unless shaken or tapped to knock it loose. But again, why weren’t the efficiency numbers different on the paper filter as a result of the Variable Flow vs. Constant Flow??


“The Testand test employed variable flow testing. The K&N test employed constant flow testing. Again, both test are ISO 5011 compliant. However, given the differences in testing methods the two results are in no way directly comparable.”
See above.

Another very important point I am surprised you missed or did not mention is that the initial efficiency of both filters was within .08 percent of each other. This is significant in that from 15 to 25 percent of a filter’s life, in the real world, is in the initial efficiency segment.
We discussed at length the desire of both of us was to provide the facts enabling people to make informed decisions about products and what is best for them.

I look forward to your reply.



If you have any further questions, please reply to this email or call our Customer Support Team at 800-858-3333

Thank you for choosing K&N Engineering

James Johnston
Product Specialist
K&N Engineering Inc
www.knfilters.com
Phone: (800) 858-3333"

As I said, PLEASE contact Mr. Johnston yourself. I at least took the time to look closer and not parrot some trumped up pseudo test.



First, I'm a 40+ year member of SAE. Second, I spent a lot of my career working with engines including selecting air cleaners. Third, oil-wetted filters are a joke to anyone that understands engines and the need for good air filters.

As for proof, this is as good as it gets: http://www.billswebspace.com/AirFilterTest.htm and is how we evaluated air cleaners.

One of the more profound statements from this independent test is:

In 60 minutes the AC Filter accumulated 574gms of dirt and passed only 0.4gms. After only 24 minutes the K&N had accumulated 221gms of dirt but passed 7.0gms. Compared to the AC, the K&N “plugged up” nearly 3 times faster, passed 18 times more dirt and captured 37% less dirt. See the data tables for a complete summary of these comparisons.
 
Last edited:
This could be fun---------again. I went several rounds with (I think) a disguised K&N employee on another forum (Corvette) a few years ago. He finally gave up.

First, they appear to be lying in their response to you. The originator of the original test (Mr. Spicer) did respond to their original inquiries and actually visited the K&N facilities. While there, tests were rerun. You can see the whole visit here:

http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/3-power-performance/84-fuel-system-air-exhaust-emissions-upgrades/66536-k-n-report.html

Not surprisingly, K&N's filter did better---------------but not very well. At K&N's facility, the K&N filter got a 98.4% efficiency there vs 96.8% at the independent test site. Sounds good until you remember that the OEM paper filter got a 99.93% rating. That means that the K&N (at the K&N test site) let 22.8% more dirt through than the paper filter!!!!!

One of the key things to a K&N filter (or any oil-wetted filter) is that the efficiency improves as the filter "loads" with dirt. So K&N starts their tests with a very low rate of dirt feed. Spicer's original tests had a steady rate and higher dirt feed rate.

Spicer's test also used a variable air flow while K&N uses a fixed air flow. The variable flow (much more reflective of a car's operation) can break previously captured dirt particles loose from a filter (probably more likely with an oil-wetted filter than a paper filter).

As for anecdotal stories of good results with oil-wetted filters, do what you want. There are also lots of anecdotal stories about messed up MAF sensors and engines that wear out quicker.

It's your engine and your pocket book, do as you please, but try to do it well informed.
 
Looking to update and upgrade your Genesis luxury sport automobile? Look no further than right here in our own forum store - where orders are shipped immediately!
There is a pre drain plug on yours, same as mine. It's not on the cap you un screw but on the bottom of the main filter housing. I can see it in the photo of the underside of the motor. It's that small allen head screw on the bottom. ;)

Crusty, yep missed that on the drain. Thanks.

The new paper filter did not seat right in the case on my V8. How people who happen to have the same internal case design I do can get that in correctly is still a mystery to me.

I think the mystery is still in play.
______________________________

Help support this site so it can continue supporting you!
 
I have used K&N in three KR F350 diesels. No problems. Either used the insert filter, or the replacement cold air system. With that said, the argument here causes pause to use them anymore.
 
In case anyone can't sleep tonight and needs something to read, here's the link to my previous K&N "discussion" on a Corvette forum. There is one admitted response from a K&N employee, and than another "shrill" for K&N joined the forum and the thread. It's informative to note that Tyrolvette joined the Corvette forum while the thread below was active, and NEVER posted again. I think that tells you something about K&N, also.


http://forums.corvetteforum.com/c5-general/1913024-k-and-n-bad-for-engines.html


Edit: Be sure that you read the first post from a racer and his experience with a K&N filter.
 
Speculation. As I said, you were the one who quoted a 10 yr old test making the disparaging claims. You seem to have all the answers, so please, contact K&N, make your claim and and ask them and you can post their response to you. I'm sure others would love to see it as well. And I'd love to see documented facts that the use of a K&N filter 'destroyed' an engine. I would wager to say that for every anecdotal story of a 'destroyed' engine, there are thousands of anecdotal stories, like mine, that support the fact that no K&N filter has destroyed an engine.

I've used K&N filters for years and years - decades I guess, if you count the other vehicles I've had. The ONLY way you could 'mess up' a MAF sensor is to totally and stupidly exceed the wetting instructions..."When servicing a K&N filter, take care not to over-oil the element. Besides impeding air flow, excess oil can migrate into the intake system where it can coat electronic sensors, which some OEM’s claim may hinder the sensors’ operation and result in a repair that will not be covered under warranty. Although K&N disagrees with such claims, as explained in more detail on this web site, in order to avoid a dispute with an OEM over the denial of a warranty claim, we suggest that you be careful not to over-oil your K&N air filter. Never saturate the filter. If oil drips from the filter, wash it and start over. Use only K&N oil. For example, an E-1500 filter has 92.4-inches of surface area requiring 1.707 fluid ounces of oil. Follow oiling instructions included with your filter or refer to the instructions listed here."

I use K&N filters NOT for 'increased' HP or whatever. I use them because overall I SAVE money, and I can keep a cleaner air filter in my engine as I clean my filters twice a year. A 24 yr old Isuzu Pickup truck that I've owned since it had 15 miles on the odometer, and now has 204,000 miles on it, USING K&N air filters, speaks for itself. And from March 1990 until last August (amost 24 years), that truck was with me in SE Arizona, one of the dustiest places around. Yet no engine wear, even though it saw daily use in a pretty tough environment off road - on many dirt and gravel roads. It burns no oil, has 21" of vacuum at idle, and gets me 22.8 mpg. So yea, I'm VERY happy with K&N filters and will continue to use them. My 2012 Genesis, 1990 Isuzu Pickup, 2004 GMC Envoy (5.3L) and Suzuki motorcycle all run very fine with them. I'd put one on my John Deer Tractor if they made one for it.

Oh, and I'm not a 'disguised K&N employee'. Just a very happy and satisfied customer.

..."The quality of an air filter can only be judged by reviewing all four important characteristics. 1) Restriction while loading with dust; 2) Filtration efficiency as a percentage; 3) Dust holding capacity before the filter needs cleaning or replacement ; and 4) filter life. Any company designing an air filter must make choices about these four characteristics and how their filter will perform in each area. Generally speaking, each characteristic of an air filter has an inverse relationship to at least one of the others, meaning, as filtration efficiency goes up, restriction increases and capacity or service life decreases. So an air filter manufacturer can design an air filter to have ultra high filtration efficiency by compromising the filters restriction, capacity, and/or service life. We judge the quality of an air filter based upon the proper balance of these four essential criteria. Maximizing one at the expense of others sounds more like a marketing goal rather than an engineering goal. So the basic answer to the original question is that higher filtration is not necessarily a good thing when it comes at the expense of restriction, reusability and/or capacity. While the benefits of a filter with 99.9% filtration are unknown, the benefits of low restriction are measurable and clear. Low restriction helps an engine perform more efficiently generating more power and torque.

That would lead a reasonable person to ask: What then is a safe level of filtration? This question is literally unanswered. Minimum air filter specifications are generally not called out in vehicle owners' manuals, nor will you find much published information on air filtration requirements from vehicle manufacturers. We have never seen a scientific study concluding what levels of filtration efficiency correspond to various levels of engine wear. Some large air filter companies do not even publish information on the efficiencies of the air filters they manufacture. It is K&N's opinion that both the Fine and Coarse Test Dust mixtures used in air filter testing contain such a high concentration of small particles that even filtration efficiency numbers as low as 90% may provide adequate engine protection. Remember that almost 11% of COARSE test dust is smaller than 5.5 microns (the size of a red blood cell).....While there are few if any studies on engine wear, it would seem reasonable to speculate that particles less than 5.5 microns create little engine wear unless ingested at very high levels of concentration. As support for this theory, consider the filtration levels provided by fuel filters and oil filters that sometimes tout their ability to filter particles above 10 or 20 microns.

If you really want to compare two air filters, you need to know all four characteristics mentioned above. Consumers can then choose what matters most to them.

We design air filters to provide low restriction throughout the filter's service interval. We seek the best balance between airflow and filtration recognizing they are inversely related. After nearly 40 years in business with millions of air filters sold, we have a track record you can trust and the experience that can only be earned through years of focusing on just one thing. But even our experience is not enough. We operate a fully staffed air filtration lab that operates on a year round basis with two test stands. The lab was designed by Southwest Research and is calibrated regularly to ensure our test results are reliable. This testing is an essential ingredient in verifying our air filters meet our own high standards of excellence. Making a great air filter is no accident and we are confident our air filters provide outstanding engine protection with huge air flow advantages throughout the air filter's service interval. That's why we back up our replacement air filters..."

and

"Out of the millions of air filters we sell, we only receive a handful of consumer complaints each month that a dealership or service provider has blamed a vehicle sensor repair on our product. We take each complaint very seriously and see it as an opportunity to stop a consumer from being taken advantage of. We investigate the situation thoroughly and take full responsibility for resolving the issue. For more information on how we educate and persuade the service provider to reconsider their position, see Mass Air Flow Sensor Information & Testing. We are so confident in our ability to resolve these situations and to help a consumer fight back that we offer our Consumer Protection Pledge.

As a result of our standing up for consumer rights and providing assistance to resolve a disagreement, we have had over 300 actual sensors sent to us by dealerships who claimed our product had caused them to fail. Microscopic, electronic and chemical testing revealed that none of the sensors were contaminated by K&N oil (K&N Detailed MAF Sensor Test Results). What is perhaps the single biggest clue to what is going on is that over 50% of these sensors were not broken in the first place for any reason.

and K&N also backs up their claims:

http://www.knfilters.com/warranty.htm

That's pretty strong from a company that produces a product that SUPPOSEDLY 'destroys' engines.


:eek:




This could be fun---------again. I went several rounds with (I think) a disguised K&N employee on another forum (Corvette) a few years ago. He finally gave up.

First, they appear to be lying in their response to you. The originator of the original test (Mr. Spicer) did respond to their original inquiries and actually visited the K&N facilities. While there, tests were rerun. You can see the whole visit here:

http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/3-power-performance/84-fuel-system-air-exhaust-emissions-upgrades/66536-k-n-report.html

Not surprisingly, K&N's filter did better---------------but not very well. At K&N's facility, the K&N filter got a 98.4% efficiency there vs 96.8% at the independent test site. Sounds good until you remember that the OEM paper filter got a 99.93% rating. That means that the K&N (at the K&N test site) let 22.8% more dirt through than the paper filter!!!!!

One of the key things to a K&N filter (or any oil-wetted filter) is that the efficiency improves as the filter "loads" with dirt. So K&N starts their tests with a very low rate of dirt feed. Spicer's original tests had a steady rate and higher dirt feed rate.

Spicer's test also used a variable air flow while K&N uses a fixed air flow. The variable flow (much more reflective of a car's operation) can break previously captured dirt particles loose from a filter (probably more likely with an oil-wetted filter than a paper filter).

As for anecdotal stories of good results with oil-wetted filters, do what you want. There are also lots of anecdotal stories about messed up MAF sensors and engines that wear out quicker.

It's your engine and your pocket book, do as you please, but try to do it well informed.
 
Well, QuantumRift, like I said before, it's your car and your billfold. By the way, the important things about a filter can be determined by the ISO 5011 test-----------read the results.


While the test is 10 years old, it is still the standard test, and has been for a long time.

And why did K&N indicate to you that Spicer and they have not been in contact-------including a visit by him to their facility?

I have no need to contact K&N-----------I (as previously mentioned) have dealt with selecting air cleaners for vehicles. I understand how air cleaners work and the pros (and cons) of different filtering media. A favorite story is having to respond to a very large customer of our farm machinery that wrote the VP (who he personally knew) suggesting that ground up corn cobs in a container could be used as an effective air filter. The advantage was supposed to be the cheap, easy way a farmer could renew his air cleaner. Back in those days (the 60's), we did our own air cleaner testing by slowly adding SAE fine dust to the inlet of a running engine. The clean air filter was weighed before the beginning of the test and than again at the end of the test. If 10 grams of dust had been added and the filter now weighed 9.9 grams more at the end of the test, the filter's efficiency was 99%. The corn cob air cleaner actually weighed less at the end of the test than what it weighed at the beginning!!

Ask yourself, why would a car or truck or off-highway vehicle manufacturer use any air filter that didn't provide high efficiency, low restriction, and good dirt holding capability (all of which leads to good life)? They don't. I know of no such manufacturer (of any volume or reputation) that uses anything but a paper filter. And there are a lot of engineers working for those many companies, and they all seem to have come to the same conclusion-----use a good paper filter from a reputable supplier.

The aftermarket is full of people selling things of little value to anything but the seller's pocketbook because Gearheads love to mod. I still remember the different linkages I tried to use on my 3x2 carb setup for better response, before I gave up and put the factory vacuum set-up back on.

Good luck with your K&N's. I'm sticking with the OEM-------I don't want to screw up my 100,000 mile engine warranty.
 
Are K&N air or oil filters used as any OEM products from the factory???
 
Are K&N air or oil filters used as any OEM products from the factory???


I'm not aware of any from the major auto companies (or truck or machinery). I suppose there might be some tuner car operation that could.

My 67 Vette is one of the last cars built with an oil wetted air filter, but it was made out of 1" thick open cell phone with lots of oil-------------there was no MAF sensor to worry about. Most of those engines got blown up before 50,000 miles anyway.
 
100_1272.jpg


100_1270.jpg


FireStone filter has no internal structural support and collapses at cold start. Never again!!
 
The above is not a Firestone filter. It is manufactured for firestone by some company. I too had the above experience with a Fram filter on my Mercedes several years ago. it looked as though it collapsed under pressure. FYI Mahle makes the OEM filter for the V8 Genesis and Mann makes the one for my two Mercedes.
 
Last edited:
Thanks for the share . OEM all the way
 
Here is an example of my experience with after market on my Mercedes E500. Note the one on the right is not collapsed. the one on the right I think is mfg. by Mann for Mercedes. Spend the few extra dollars, its worth it.

IMG_609.jpg
 
Back
Top