Anyone concern with the Genesis Low Sales Figures

[Mark_888]

People aren't even driving 09s because of the relentless crying by some people here who have baseless arguments other than the fact that they don't like their cars. Hyundai is firming the suspension for 2010, and its not going to do anything for those who think the suspension is too firmly spring already, although given the relentless harping by some people here, I'm sure they will cry victory even if it means cutting their nose to spite their face. 2009s drive great, and everyone, save a small group of vocal decriers, thinks so. People don't give awards to cars that ride as poorly as some people here would have you believe.

Mark, you have increasingly little credibility here anymore due to your posts' persistent lack of evidence to back up your "facts".

Have you driven a 2010 Genesis?

No I have not. I have relied on several posts in this forum by people who have driven both the 2009 and 2010 and so far they all say that it is improved. One person (on this forum) said the 2010 rides better than the 2009 over rough roads, but actually is actually flatter around corners. Here is one post (of several):

Just drove the 2010... 4.6 w/tech. They killed the porpoise. (Was that insensitive to our underwater allies?)

Seriously.. and I have to say (as a former BMW owner) the handling is sportier. Somehow, they made it corner flatter while maintaining a comfortable ride. Well done! Amazing what you can do with just some adjustments. (On the same rubber no less).

http://www.genesisowners.com/hyundai-genesis-forum/showpost.php?p=32027&postcount=51

When I was in an online chat session with John Krafcik (CEO of HMA) in mid-February 2009, he said there would be suspension improvements for 2010 and that he personally tested and approved the changes. That was a fairly long time ago. I believe that Hyundai knew the suspension needed some tuning late last year, long before it became a hot topic of discussion on forums.

If you disagree with HMA and don't think the 2009 suspension needed some tuning, then you certainly have a right to your opinion. I will side with John Krafcik on this one.

Personally, I like a firm suspension, but one that has a little more compliance over rough roads than the 2009 has. From everything I have heard the 2010 retains the firmness, excellent handling, and provides better compliance. Sounds like a win-win to me.

 

[Asus999]

I'm not going to send Kaberle a private message...instead I'll just put it in the open here...I TOTALLY agree with Kaberle...period!
I've said it already but I'll say it again...this place is falling apart.
The same crap comes out all the time...

If Kaberle is booted out...please boot me out too!!! This place is NOT what it use to be...
I SUPER afraid to start a thread or ask a question here. This is simply a pity.

Regards,

I Totally agree, I was just wondering if a thread could be started and have some rational discussion WITHOUT it some how turning into a Suspension discussion... If there is somethng new being revealed then by all means.. but the same old same old REALY gets tiring.. seems like you dont have to be in the Suspension Discussion thread to hear the same old Crap!!! heard it all blah blah blah...

 

[Asus999]

No I have not. I have relied on several posts in this forum by people who have driven both the 2009 and 2010 and so far they all say that it is improved. One person (on this forum) said the 2010 rides better than the 2009 over rough roads, but actually is actually flatter around corners. Here is one post (of several):

http://www.genesisowners.com/hyundai-genesis-forum/showpost.php?p=32027&postcount=51

When I was in an online chat session with John Krafcik (CEO of HMA) in mid-February 2009, he said there would be suspension improvements for 2010 and that he personally tested and approved the changes. That was a fairly long time ago. I believe that Hyundai knew the suspension needed some tuning late last year, long before it became a hot topic of discussion on forums.

If you disagree with HMA and don't think the 2009 suspension needed some tuning, then you certainly have a right to your opinion. I will side with John Krafcik on this one.

Personally, I like a firm suspension, but one that has a little more compliance over rough roads than the 2009 has. From everything I have heard the 2010 retains the firmness, excellent handling, and provides better compliance. Sounds like a win-win to me.

How did get an invite to the chat session? I think in an earlier post you said you didnt remember how you were invited.... I think I would remember how I got invited into a meeting with hyundai CEO.. You seem to drop this line quite often as if its soo important in the grand scheme of things..u have provided no proof of this discussion.. could be all hearsay as far as i'm concerned.. for the record, you are the one that is most obsessed with the Genesis Suspension, thats why greater than 90% of your post is suspension related..
I will wait for your response, because I know you LOVE to argue the Genesis Suspension... seems to be the only reason you visit this site...

 

[OBCT]

I, also, pretty much agree with kaberle, QCTLG, Asus999.

Mark_888 comes across overly strong a good chunk of the time, but he's also a source of some very good information. kaberle's comments are probably a little harsh for an internet message board that could have minors reading it, etc, but I understand where he's coming from. Mark_888 is definitely opinionated.


As for the suspension thing... the whole thing has gotten old. I don't know if this is "the" answer, but I would be all for the moderators setting aside one or two sticky-ed topics just for the suspension. Outside those topics, any discussion of the suspension whatsoever would be cause for a warning (first time), then maybe some sort of "punishment" in the case of repeat offenders. Just an idea.

It is still a topic worthy of discussion, and I wouldn't want to detract from any of that, but I think many on this board would like to see other threads that are fundamentally unrelated to the suspension stay that way. It might also decrease tension a bit around here.

 

[RogerB]

A moderator has all the tools he needs to ensure the rules are followed. He can begin politely and ask the offending poster by private message to abide by the rules the next time. If the offender again violates the rules, in this case raises the suspension issue again, the mod can delete the post with a warning by private message that any further violation will result in a suspension from the board for a given length of time. If the poster persists in violating the rules, the mod simply bans him, perhaps temporarily the first time, permanently if there is a recurrence.

Of course in my experience, banned posters often come back with a different username. Usually they can be spotted by their internet number. Clever posters can change that. I remember one case where the offending poster was in Switzerland, the administrator had to bar all posters from that country for a while. So it can get pretty tedious for the administrator.

I guess it all comes down to how important a mod or an administrator thinks it is to enforce compliance. I'm new here but it seems a lot of people are quite annoyed at the Genesis suspension issue being raised all over the place.

 

[DeMAN]

CARLINE SEPT 09 SEPT 08 CY2009 CY2008
GENESIS 1,665 1,029 15,934 2,855

I will attribute these sales numbers to a bad economy and the fact that the genesis was released at the time where the auto industry was seeing contraction.

Total 18789 units between the sedan and coupe since inception. Hyundai doesn't release seperate coupe/sedan numbers

The 15,934 and the 18,789 are the numbers that everyone should be looking at. It gives you the total picture. I would venture to guest that 75%-80% of the 18,789 are Sedans.

I think a lot of people like me are waiting for the NAV in the coupe. They are here but dealers now will try to get you because they are so rare.

I would also like to see Hyundai either put a V8 or twin turbo in the coupe. That would definately be a head turner.

 

[Sayantsi]

How did get an invite to the chat session? I think in an earlier post you said you didnt remember how you were invited.... I think I would remember how I got invited into a meeting with hyundai CEO.. You seem to drop this line quite often as if its soo important in the grand scheme of things..u have provided no proof of this discussion.. could be all hearsay as far as i'm concerned.. for the record, you are the one that is most obsessed with the Genesis Suspension, thats why greater than 90% of your post is suspension related..
I will wait for your response, because I know you LOVE to argue the Genesis Suspension... seems to be the only reason you visit this site...

https://hyundaithinktank.com/app

Its free to sign up and its a good source of info and offers a chance to talk with Hyundai employees. Everyone signed up is invited to attend these sessions.

As for the suspension, remember Hyundai brands the Genesis as a sports sedan, and all reviews report that the suspension is a little soft compared to the cars Hyundai stated it was targeting. From press releases we know the 2010 Hyundai has improved corning and handling characteristics that tend to support what Hyundai has been saying all along about firming up the ride. I feel for those that think the Hyundai will be that drastically different, but I'll hold final judgment until I drive a 2010 model, and not in the mean time play John the Baptist.

Imo anyone that thinks the 2010 suspension is going to be magically better and will be their dream-riding car has their heads in the clouds. Name the last time a car's suspension was tuned and you a- knew about it and b- could really tell the difference. It happens all the time and usually no one notices.

 

[Sayantsi]

If you disagree with HMA and don't think the 2009 suspension needed some tuning, then you certainly have a right to your opinion. I will side with John Krafcik on this one.

Personally, I like a firm suspension, but one that has a little more compliance over rough roads than the 2009 has. From everything I have heard the 2010 retains the firmness, excellent handling, and provides better compliance. Sounds like a win-win to me.

No, I agree that the suspension should be a bit fimer if Hyundai is trying to market the car as a sport sedan. Removing characteristics such as "porpoise" required stiffer springs and dampers, so if you think you're getting a softer ride you'll be disappointed. Of course, the 09 suspension is already great my, and 90% of everyone else's, opinion.

I read the vocal minority's negative opinion of the ride quality when I was researching the Genesis and cross shopping, and thought there was some serious issue. I found their issues unfounded in an actual car by taking two on extended test drives. The Genesis rides great so long as you don't want a pillowy ride. Many of the people I've seen complaining about the ride openly admit to preferring cars like the Lincoln Town Car and Toyota Camry, which are decidedly not sports sedans.

 

[dataguy]

No, I agree that the suspension should be a bit fimer if Hyundai is trying to market the car as a sport sedan. Removing characteristics such as "porpoise" required stiffer springs and dampers, so if you think you're getting a softer ride you'll be disappointed. Of course, the 09 suspension is already great my, and 90% of everyone else's, opinion.

I'm not exactly sure that Hyundai is trying to market the Genesis as a sport sedan. If anything, I think they're trying to toe the line to appeal to both segments. With no manual transmission option, no paddle shifer, no sport shift program, no true ESC disable, lack of enough side seat bolstering, and so on, it's hard to see that they really mean it to be a sport sedan.

 

[Sayantsi]

I'm not exactly sure that Hyundai is trying to market the Genesis as a sport sedan. If anything, I think they're trying to toe the line to appeal to both segments. With no manual transmission option, no paddle shifer, no sport shift program, no true ESC disable, lack of enough side seat bolstering, and so on, it's hard to see that they really mean it to be a sport sedan.

All I can say is Hyundai calls it a sport sedan in its literature and marketing, and it does have the manumatic, Dunlop "ultra high performance" AS tires, and a German-engineered suspension (and trans in the V8), so I guess its how you look at it, although the GS, the upper level IS, and the Mercedes are all auto only as well and are about the same level of "sporting" as the Genesis imo. The 2010 Hyundai press release said the suspension changes are aimed at handling, so that indicates sporting changes to me at least.

There was this quote from Krafick that pointedly identifies other sports sedans:

While Genesis will compete for customers with cars like Chrysler 300 and Pontiac G8, our engineering benchmarks were Mercedes E-Class, Infiniti M, and Lexus GS,” said John Krafcik, vice president, product development and strategic planning, Hyundai Motor America. “Genesis provides a potent combination of performance, luxury, and value.”

http://www.worldcarfans.com/10801082704/detroit-debut-for-hyundai-genesis-premium-sports-sedan

Hyundai has benchmarked the BMWs, and called out the sport sedans of other marques like the GS and M, so I'm inclined to believe Hyundai is aiming for the sports sedan market still and looking to get the Genesis sedan to behave more like these cars.

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[YEH]

Genesis sales figures Sept.09- 1,665. Acura TL was 2034.

My concerns are that Genesis numbers are the sedan + the coupe, while the TL numbers reflex the sedans only. The Genesis Coupe can be had for under $25K, while the TL is around $32k on the low side.

These are low numbers for both cars but Hyundai has at least twice the dealers as Acura for there cars at present.

Keep in mind that the RL is closer to the size of the Genesis and the RL has been selling at about a 200/month clip (last month 150 sold).

I don't think there needs to be any concern w/ the sales figures for the Genesis sedan - prior to the introduction of the coupe, the sedan was selling at a 1,500-1,600 clip - and last month, Hyundai sold over 2,100 units of the Genesis (probably due to the increase in sales of the coupe).

Even if the monthly sales of the sedan dropped to 1,300-1,400/month, that's still pretty close to Hyundai's projections for the sedan and still more than 2x the monthly sales of the Infiniti M and Lexus GS (as for the TL, keep in mind that Acura has an established customer base w/ the TL - but even so, the new TL has been a big disappointment for Acura and probably will sell just 50-60% of projections); keep in mind that the Lincoln moved about 1,300 units of the MKS last month, so at that level, the Genesis sedan is perfectly fine (for most of the year, only the 5 Series and E Class have outsold the Genesis in the mid-size segment).

Otoh, sales of the coupe have been disappointing to say the least (esp. since the coupe was supposed to be the volume setter).

Just an estimation on my part, but Hyundai probably isn't even meeting 25% of its projected sales w/ the coupe.

Now I don't know if this is a supply issue (the Hyundai dealer at my place in MD has ZERO coupes and only 1 sedan, a 2009) or if all the buyers interested in a sporty coupe just decided to opt for the Camaro, but needless to say, the sales of the coupe have been a major disappointment.

Until last Spring, Hyundai bragged that Genesis sedan sales topped 1000 each month. If sales were holding up, there would be some mention somewhere of sedan vs coupe sales. Hyundai's initial sales projections were for about 50000 units per year - 20000 sedans (80% V6) and 30000 coupes. To sell at 50% or less of that target given the massive introductory advertising has got to be a disappointment.

The point is that the perception of the Genesis can only be so much higher than the Hyundai brand as a whole before cognitive dissonance sets in. I don't know what the answer is - a separate dealership seems off the table - but unless and until the Hyundai brand itself moves more upscale there is very much cause for concern for the lackluster Genesis sales figures.

Sales of the sedan are doing much better than the coupe - and since the sedan goes after a more upscale market than than the coupe, I don't think the problem is the dealership/brand.

 

[dataguy]

All I can say is Hyundai calls it a sport sedan in its literature and marketing, and it does have the manumatic, Dunlop "ultra high performance" AS tires, and a German-engineered suspension (and trans in the V8), so I guess its how you look at it, although the GS, the upper level IS, and the Mercedes are all auto only as well and are about the same level of "sporting" as the Genesis imo. The 2010 Hyundai press release said the suspension changes are aimed at handling, so that indicates sporting changes to me at least.

There was this quote from Krafick that pointedly identifies other sports sedans:



http://www.worldcarfans.com/10801082704/detroit-debut-for-hyundai-genesis-premium-sports-sedan

Hyundai has benchmarked the BMWs, and called out the sport sedans of other marques like the GS and M, so I'm inclined to believe Hyundai is aiming for the sports sedan market still and looking to get the Genesis sedan to behave more like these cars.

I'm not trying to start a debate, only pointing out that they're not just marketing this as a European sport sedan competitor. Hyundai has compared the Genesis to a lot of cars, some sports and some not (invoking everything from a Porche Boxter to a Rolls-Royce Phantom to a 7-Series). There's plenty of marketing and auto press that puts emphasis on the luxury sedan aspect of the Genesis. I suspect that a lot of folks who are complaining that the ride isn't cushy enough were not really in the market for a sport sedan, and that those who were expecting a sport sedan are not quite completely happy with the result, perhaps save the price tag and lux components.

Personally, I think Hyundai would have been more overt if they had a car that could go toe-to-toe in the classical sport sedan class or if they weren't trying for multiple markets (including the "aspirational luxury" category). Put another way, there's no doubt with the Genesis Coupe.

When they have the Equus and a mid-life refresh on the Genesis, I think that's when the positioning will be more defined. Not something like 'we are a good alternate choice from everything from an Avalon to a 300 to an RL to a 5-Series to an LS.'

 

[GripperDon]

It would be hard not to if they read these forums - you spam about your dislike of the Genesis every chance you get.

Incorrect distortion as usual, I said the ride is harsh, I said I love the car, especially the sound system. You are such a fanboy you can't tell it like it is.

 

[GripperDon]

No I have not. I have relied on several posts in this forum by people who have driven both the 2009 and 2010 and so far they all say that it is improved. One person (on this forum) said the 2010 rides better than the 2009 over rough roads, but actually is actually flatter around corners.


MARK 888 has just as much right to express his opinion i any way he want as does anyone else AND he does not call people foul names. SO why don't the rest of you talk about stuff like changing rim sizes, tire sizes, tire construction features, spring rates, sources, dampers, etc. and let go calling him names.

 

[kaberle]

No I have not. I have relied on several posts in this forum by people who have driven both the 2009 and 2010 and so far they all say that it is improved. One person (on this forum) said the 2010 rides better than the 2009 over rough roads, but actually is actually flatter around corners.


MARK 888 has just as much right to express his opinion i any way he want as does anyone else AND he does not call people foul names. SO why don't the rest of you talk about stuff like changing rim sizes, tire sizes, tire construction features, spring rates, sources, dampers, etc. and let go calling him names.

It has never been about Mark's right to express his opinion....... It is about Mark's repeated hyjacking of conversations to suit his calling in life which is to repeat over and over his opinion. ( take a look at how many posts he has made which tells me he doesn't let much go without expressing his opinion) If you look at his history on here you will see that he continually wants to turn every conversation in his direction, like for example when someone puts up a poll.... he wants to change the poll. This is why Mark rubs a lot of people the wrong way. It is his contempt for other peoples opinions. He has a comeback for everything. Just maybe there are times where other people may have a point and he could just not comeback. But that is not in his makeup.

Regarding the suspension issue. I don't know how your car rides and I don't know what you expect, but I can tell you mine rides as I expect it to and on the roads I drive is in no way harsh......... My use of rude language was obviously for effect. I am not a rude person by nature.


I do not wish to pick a fight with anyone on here........ you will notice that although you also have strong thoughts on the suspension I don't respond to you....... that is because you don't hyjack conversations......


Have a nice day


Tom

 

[DeMAN]

I suppose many are down on the Genesis coupe, because for me it was noisy. This was not what I was expecting from a Genesis. Had it been a tiburon I woulld have been OK with that. I know people like what they can do with the turbo 4, but they should have kept the tiburon for that.


Now the Genesis coupe base model should have been a 6 with the 300+ hp engine they now have and a premium turbo version V6. A 4 banger and genesis really doesn't go together. I expected the Genesis to go headup with the G35/37 not and not try and compete with a Chevy Cobalt SS. That will never work and could actually hurt sedan sales.

I will expect Hyundai to one day have a dealership where there will be a Hyundai and Genesis side. It will be an all in one dealer but will give the Gensis , and the Equus customers a little more extra for buying there upscale models. I dont ever see them having a separate dealership all together.
The Turbo 4 needs to be dropped from the genesis lineup period. I think Hyundai could very easily meet those numbers of 3k for the coupe if they done that. 27K-36K would be a nice range for a base v6 to a turbo 6 (preferable twin trubo 6 This is what the competition has and what hyundai should have and exceeded with a turbo v6 genesis coupe. Hopefully Hyundai does a little more sound deadning withe the coupe.


Sorry I started the debate about the TL Vs. the Genesis. They really dont compare. Even the RL which is more expensive and a lot smaller. Yes Honda has pissed a lot people off with the new TL including me

I also hope the 2010 Genesis comes with a service monitor to give you an ideal when the car should be serviced.

 

[kaberle]

I suppose many are down on the Genesis coupe, because for me it was noisy. This was not what I was expecting from a Genesis. Had it been a tiburon I woulld have been OK with that. I know people like what they can do with the turbo 4, but they should have kept the tiburon for that.


Now the Genesis coupe base model should have been a 6 with the 300+ hp engine they now have and a premium turbo version V6. A 4 banger and genesis really doesn't go together. I expected the Genesis to go headup with the G35/37 not and not try and compete with a Chevy Cobalt SS. That will never work and could actually hurt sedan sales.

I will expect Hyundai to one day have a dealership where there will be a Hyundai and Genesis side. It will be an all in one dealer but will give the Gensis , and the Equus customers a little more extra for buying there upscale models. I dont ever see them having a separate dealership all together.
The Turbo 4 needs to be dropped from the genesis lineup period. I think Hyundai could very easily meet those numbers of 3k for the coupe if they done that. 27K-36K would be a nice range for a base v6 to a turbo 6 (preferable twin trubo 6 This is what the competition has and what hyundai should have and exceeded with a turbo v6 genesis coupe. Hopefully Hyundai does a little more sound deadning withe the coupe.


Sorry I started the debate about the TL Vs. the Genesis. They really dont compare. Even the RL which is more expensive and a lot smaller. Yes Honda has pissed a lot people off with the new TL including me

I also hope the 2010 Genesis comes with a service monitor to give you an ideal when the car should be serviced.

Thank you for trying to keep this on topic and ignoring the rest of us. We need more people like you on here

 

[Sayantsi]

Incorrect distortion as usual, I said the ride is harsh, I said I love the car, especially the sound system. You are such a fanboy you can't tell it like it is.

Thanks the name calling Don. Now everyone here who is tired of your repeated spamming is a "fan boy"? I guess when you don't have a leg to stand on you can resort to calling people names?

Its amazing that of the entire internet, this is the only place where Genesis owners, and about 3 or four of them at that, do nothing but complain about the suspension and poison every thread with their agenda.

 

[crupp]

Kaberle has been given a ten day suspension! Let this serve notice that we are going to take this type of behavior seriously and WILL NOT tolerate this any longer. To be clear he was suspended due to directing profanity at another member.


After 3 infractions a member is removed for good.

 

[SterlingDave]

Kaberle has been given a ten day suspension! Let this serve notice that we are going to take this type of behavior seriously and WILL NOT tolerate this any longer. To be clear he was suspended due to directing profanity at another member.


After 3 infractions a member is removed for good.

Crupp, it is a crying shame that we have a couple of members (do I need to name them?) who are responsible for considerable ill will among members here and instigating responses/reactions as well, for which you are punishing Kaberle. Why are they not publicly admonished for their continual harassment and haranguing on the issue of the Genesis' suspension? This is the specific and proximate cause for the current level of anguish and ill will on this forum. This sort of reminds me of unsportsmanlike conduct penalties in football...you have to address both sides!

Please take action now to mend this site! This site should be a help to new and prospective Genesis owners.....not a pulpit for the one note samba from these [two] individuals.

If you feel that I should be suspended, sobeit.