Excessive intake valve buildup

[path914]

Does anyone know if the brake booster line feeds all of the cylinders in the V6? I'm thinking maybe using Seafoam every 10k to keep the intake valve backs as clean as possible.

I know you can also spray Seafoam into the throttle body, but the booster line is easier and I actually have experience doing it that way in previous vehicles.

If you do a search on this on google, you will find that many people have tried this and it hasn't shown any significant effect. The deposits are stuck on there too well for the seafoam to clean, although it will clean out the im pretty well.

 

[zielritter]

If you do a search on this on google, you will find that many people have tried this and it hasn't shown any significant effect. The deposits are stuck on there too well for the seafoam to clean, although it will clean out the im pretty well.

Well that stinks. I wonder why the deposits stick so well in these cases. I wonder if closer intervals of Seafoaming would help. Otherwise it seems that they only solution is to periodically pay the dealer to take apart the top of the engine and blast it (I'm sure as hell not brave enough to try it). Guess I'll cross my fingers and hope that the Lambda isn't overly susceptible to build up.

 

[zielritter]

I'm thinking maybe something like this would do the trick? It's not too big, is reasonably priced, has a clear color so you can see build up occur, has a built in drain valve, and looks to be well made.

[ame="http://www.amazon.com/JEGS-Performance-Products-52205-Separator/dp/B007WWW6DI/ref=sr_1_1?s=automotive&ie=UTF8&qid=1359035241&sr=1-1&keywords=oil+separator"]http://www.amazon.com/JEGS-Performance-Products-52205-Separator/dp/B007WWW6DI/ref=sr_1_1?s=automotive&ie=UTF8&qid=1359035241&sr=1-1&keywords=oil+separator[/ame]

 

[jnc2000]

You don't want a clear hose - it isn't built for heat.

 

[zielritter]

You don't want a clear hose - it isn't built for heat.

I don't think what I linked is a hose though. It is a polycarbonate container goes inline with a hose you supply and captures the oily blow-by before it's recycled through the intake. Basically a catch can with a built in filter and valve for draining.

 

[kcgr]

I know in some industries they use dry ice to blast with. No walnut hulls to vacuum up ... just the carbon fines to deal with.

 

[zielritter]

I built a catch can over the weekend with a Husky water separator (for air compressor machines) from Home Depot. I removed the built in filter and used some spare fuel hose and two brass 1/4" to 3/8" barb fittings.

Even after just a few drives, a gunky, oily substance is accumulating in the bottom of the clear bowl. I would hate to see what this does to the intake tract and valves of a GDI over the course of tens of thousands of miles.

 

[QuantumRift]

Re: Excessiver intake valve buildup

Uh, 'dumping Seafoam' in to the intake won't help. And probably do more damage the help as you can't meter the product properly into the engine. My guess is the best way is with a BG Induction Service.

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=biM5-GW4CLQ"]BG Induction Service (Carbon Deposit Treatment) - YouTube[/ame]

http://www.motor.com/article.asp?article_ID=1317

Something like this would be good to inspect the intake manifold and valves....

http://www.harborfreight.com/high-resolution-digital-inspection-camera-with-recorder-67980.html

I've seen this on carb'd engines in the past, and the fuel certainly flows past those intake valves.

If its not crap from the fuel used, what is building up on the valves?

Anyone use seafoam? I've used in on a couple of cars and it sure does make them smoke for few minutes of driving after you dump it into the intake. I believe you can put it in the oil, pour it into the intake or put it in the gas tank.

 

[QuantumRift]

Look at the MSDS of SeaFoam; it's 40 - 60% Pale Oil, 25 - 30% Naptha, and the rest is "IPA", or Isopropyl Alcohol. So just dumping it or spraying it into the intake of a GDI engine won't really do anything; it's not that 'strong'" or in the concentration needed to get the job done. Essentially it will have to 'dissolve' the carbon and it doesn't have the "oomph" like, say, a BG Induction cleaning or similar does. The intake stream in a non-GDI car continually bathes or washes the valves with the gas/detergent spray as it enters the engine; if you have significant build up a can of SeaFoam just won't do it. You prob need to "IV" a can of seafoam to continually suck in cleaner to keep the valves clean. The type of cleaning that BG does, as I see it, attaches a pressurized can of cleaning agent and it's metered into the engine so as not to cause other problems with the emissions, etc.

If you do a search on this on google, you will find that many people have tried this and it hasn't shown any significant effect. The deposits are stuck on there too well for the seafoam to clean, although it will clean out the im pretty well.

 

[EXBMWGUY]

Look at the MSDS of SeaFoam; it's 40 - 60% Pale Oil, 25 - 30% Naptha, and the rest is "IPA", or Isopropyl Alcohol. So just dumping it or spraying it into the intake of a GDI engine won't really do anything; it's not that 'strong'" or in the concentration needed to get the job done. Essentially it will have to 'dissolve' the carbon and it doesn't have the "oomph" like, say, a BG Induction cleaning or similar does. The intake stream in a non-GDI car continually bathes or washes the valves with the gas/detergent spray as it enters the engine; if you have significant build up a can of SeaFoam just won't do it. You prob need to "IV" a can of seafoam to continually suck in cleaner to keep the valves clean. The type of cleaning that BG does, as I see it, attaches a pressurized can of cleaning agent and it's metered into the engine so as not to cause other problems with the emissions, etc.

There may be an unfavorable risk/reward to Seafoam, since it has not proven to be effective on GDI engines through either the tank or the vacuum stream and may be a risk to other parts of the engine (HPFP, etc.).

My bet is on (1) oil changes with Synthetic oil with a low-volatility NOACK rating (under 9%), changed every 5000-7500 miles, (2) all other engine-related maintenance, (3) top-tier fuel, (4) installation of a catch can if you keep the car a long time, (4) intake cleaning, either with something like the BG intake cleaning system or a blast method like walnut shells.

With close to 25,000 miles on the clock, performance and response is getting better, not worse. This is completely contrary to jnc2000's experience and pictures, even though his driving style (good fuel, lots of highway miles, etc.) is very similar to mine, except he has more miles on his OD. But when I'm at 35,000 or 50,000 miles, who knows? My car may run like a '72 Chevy Vega!

For now, I've stopped using Mobil 1, because they don't publish their NOVAK test results. Instead, I've switched to Pennzoil Ultra 5-30 because of its low NOVAK percentage and it seems to have everything else I want. Pennzoil Ultra has delivered extremely good results on one of the Corvette forums.

From what I understand, the 5.0 has no EGR, and that, in theory, should help somewhat. Hyundai's split-sequence DI possibly combined with variable intake timing, is something I mentioned earlier in this thread and asked if anyone knew anything about it. Nobody responded, so I assume nobody knows or cares, but it is supposed to mist the intake valve with fuel (I don't know how).

There is a great deal of data on this problem suggesting some car manufacturers are having lots more intake carbon buildup problems than others. VW/Audi and BMW have been some of the worst. Toyota (recently), GM and Ford have been having far fewer problems. With Hyundai, I'm getting mixed messages.

So I would be interested in (1) additional data on this problem with Hyundais in general and the 5.0 in particular. (2) is split-sequence (or split-event) DI more than marketing?

But I do suspect that a bunch of more posts on Seafoam don't help anyone here.

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[zielritter]

My catch can is already about a 1/6 of the way full with the brown milky blow-by. It can't be a bad thing that this crap isn't hitting the back of the valves en route to the cylinder.

 

[Mark_888]

For now, I've stopped using Mobil 1, because they don't publish their NOVAK test results. Instead, I've switched to Pennzoil Ultra 5-30 because of its low NOVAK percentage and it seems to have everything else I want. Pennzoil Ultra has delivered extremely good results on one of the Corvette forums.

In the FAQ section of Mobil 1 website, they say that NOACK viscosity is typically 11-13% for 5W-30. But since NOACK is an measure of high temperature evaporation, and I have never used any oil between changes since using Mobil 1 for last 15 years, I doubt that NOACK is a serious concern for a synthetic oil, due to its very high flash-point (392 F for most Mobil 1 oils). That is not to say that Pennzoil Ultra is not an excellent product. but maybe should be compared to Mobil 1 EP oils.

 

[QuantumRift]

DUDE! Thank you for the info. I've see the term 'catch can' bantered here, with you guys talking about it; for those of us who are "catching up" on the discussion, here's the description:

"What is an oil catch can?
Answer:
An oil catch can is used in turbo applications, or high-performance race applications where excessive blow-by (leakage past the piston rings) of air and fuel vapor occurs. This creates a positive pressure in the crankcase. Engine manufactures have placed a valve on the engine block which releases this pressure. This valve is known as a PCV (Positive Crankcase Ventilation) valve. During engine operation, blow-by gases, as well as oil mist from the rotating components of the engine, pass through the PCV valve and are routed back into the intake for the engine to burn off. However, some of the oil mist and other products settle along the engine intake and over time form a "gunk." The oil catch can collects the oil mist and condenses the fuel vapors while allowing "cleaner" gases to be passed back into the intake. Typically the blow-by gasses are passed through a wire mesh, which give the vapor droplets something to adhere to. Since the oil catch cans condense the vapor portion of the gasses, they will need to be drained periodically of all the oil, fuel and other contaminants."


I wonder if this would be usable on the Genesis (I like the "Stealth" model):

http://www.42draftdesigns.com/categories/products/catchcans.html

but I like the looks of this one, LoL: http://www.maperformance.com/jm-fab-universal-deluxe-oil-catch-can.html#.URHOQvLVUik

There may be an unfavorable risk/reward to Seafoam, since it has not proven to be effective on GDI engines through either the tank or the vacuum stream and may be a risk to other parts of the engine (HPFP, etc.).

My bet is on (1) oil changes with Synthetic oil with a low-volatility NOACK rating (under 9%), changed every 5000-7500 miles, (2) all other engine-related maintenance, (3) top-tier fuel, (4) installation of a catch can if you keep the car a long time, (4) intake cleaning, either with something like the BG intake cleaning system or a blast method like walnut shells.

With close to 25,000 miles on the clock, performance and response is getting better, not worse. This is completely contrary to jnc2000's experience and pictures, even though his driving style (good fuel, lots of highway miles, etc.) is very similar to mine, except he has more miles on his OD. But when I'm at 35,000 or 50,000 miles, who knows? My car may run like a '72 Chevy Vega!

For now, I've stopped using Mobil 1, because they don't publish their NOVAK test results. Instead, I've switched to Pennzoil Ultra 5-30 because of its low NOVAK percentage and it seems to have everything else I want. Pennzoil Ultra has delivered extremely good results on one of the Corvette forums.

From what I understand, the 5.0 has no EGR, and that, in theory, should help somewhat. Hyundai's split-sequence DI possibly combined with variable intake timing, is something I mentioned earlier in this thread and asked if anyone knew anything about it. Nobody responded, so I assume nobody knows or cares, but it is supposed to mist the intake valve with fuel (I don't know how).

There is a great deal of data on this problem suggesting some car manufacturers are having lots more intake carbon buildup problems than others. VW/Audi and BMW have been some of the worst. Toyota (recently), GM and Ford have been having far fewer problems. With Hyundai, I'm getting mixed messages.

So I would be interested in (1) additional data on this problem with Hyundais in general and the 5.0 in particular. (2) is split-sequence (or split-event) DI more than marketing?

But I do suspect that a bunch of more posts on Seafoam don't help anyone here.

 

[zielritter]

I wonder if this would be usable on the Genesis (I like the "Stealth" model):

http://www.42draftdesigns.com/categories/products/catchcans.html

but I like the looks of this one, LoL: http://www.maperformance.com/jm-fab-universal-deluxe-oil-catch-can.html#.URHOQvLVUik

I'm sure any universal catch can would work. For me, I spent $30 on parts from Home Depot and built my own using a compressor oil/water separator filter that is completely unnoticeable. Also, it's clear so I can when it's full of blow by and simply unscrew the bowl and dispose of the gunk.

 

[Southern Boy]

Called my Hyundai mechanic and asked him what procedures he used to remove the carbon build up on the intake valves that occur in GDI engines.

He said that he does a 3 part induction service every 15k that removes any carbon build up. The 3 part cleaning is accomplished with a high pressure injection of a Hyundai non-detergent cleaner which dissolves the carbon.

The cost of this service is $119. He went on to elaborate that the carbon build up can rob fuel economy and performance, cause oil leakage and engine knock if not attended to.

MPO is “for $119 bucks let the professionals do it using profession chemicals and be done with it.”

 

[EXBMWGUY]

Called my Hyundai mechanic and asked him what procedures he used to remove the carbon build up on the intake valves that occur in GDI engines.

He said that he does a 3 part induction service every 15k that removes any carbon build up. The 3 part cleaning is accomplished with a high pressure injection of a Hyundai non-detergent cleaner which dissolves the carbon.

The cost of this service is $119. He went on to elaborate that the carbon build up can rob fuel economy and performance, cause oil leakage and engine knock if not attended to.

MPO is “for $119 bucks let the professionals do it using profession chemicals and be done with it.”

^ totally!

 

[path914]

If it works, i would agree... However, my experience with other GDI platforms has been that physical cleaning is required, not just a cleaner injection. I would love to see actual pictures of the valves after this service has been performed.

 

[Philth]

If it works, i would agree... However, my experience with other GDI platforms has been that physical cleaning is required, not just a cleaner injection. I would love to see actual pictures of the valves after this service has been performed.

This.

 

[zielritter]

Called my Hyundai mechanic and asked him what procedures he used to remove the carbon build up on the intake valves that occur in GDI engines.

He said that he does a 3 part induction service every 15k that removes any carbon build up. The 3 part cleaning is accomplished with a high pressure injection of a Hyundai non-detergent cleaner which dissolves the carbon.

The cost of this service is $119. He went on to elaborate that the carbon build up can rob fuel economy and performance, cause oil leakage and engine knock if not attended to.

MPO is “for $119 bucks let the professionals do it using profession chemicals and be done with it.”

So I guess the performance loss is noticeable on the Hyundai engines or was he just generalizing? It would seem that if one lets the build up accumulate too much that a cleaner isn't going to do the trick and the dealer is going to have to remove the valve cover and blast it off. I bet that costs a lot more than $119.

That's why it's BS that this issue isn't covered by the 100k powertrain or at least the 50k b2b warranty. They should put the routine cleaning on the maintenance schedule for the GDI engines if it's going to be considered a wear item.

 

[Philth]

For clarification, the valve cover does not need to be removed. It's the intake manifold that needs to be removed.