Great mileage using 100 percent petrol

[Aquineas]

It is NOT engine tuning AND it is not the 3% energy difference between ethanol & gasoline. It is the difference between ethanol engines(using 100% ethanol) & gasoline engines(that should be using 100% gasoline(E0)). Ethanol used(not burned effectively) in low compression ratio(9:1 to 12:1) gasoline engines CANNOT release all its energy, as ethanol burned(effectively) in a high compression ratio(16:1) ethanol engine CAN release all its energy.

Again, ethanol engine engineers are good. Gasoline engine engineers are good. "ethanol in gasoline" propagandists are NOT engineers & NOT good.

Anyhow, pure-gas.org will have listings for 10,000 sources of 100% gasoline(E0) by the beginning of 2016. The "ethanol in gasoline" industry & the EPA can no longer suppress the truth that ethanol is NOT burning effectively in gasoline engines.

This makes a lot more sense to me and seems to support what I and others are seeing in the real world.

 

[litesong]

......seems to support what I and others are seeing in the real world.

I hope you do include me with "others". Reiterating from one of my previous posts:
I have many years EACH, comparing 10% ethanol blends to 100% gasoline(E0) for 3 cars, showing 8%, 7%, & 5% increased mpg with E0. All engines run smoother, quieter & with a trace extra low rpm torque, such that less downshifting is necessary when ascending hills. My present 2013 Elantra is showing the same effect, of 8% mpg improvement burning E0 vs 10% ethanol blends. FYI, the Elantra has many complaints of low mpg & finally had to be downgraded in EPA mpg ratings. My Elantra tho, has a present AVERAGE, using E0, of 39mpg, with 15% city driving.
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In addition, many other grassroots posters on other websites have data very similar to mine. Two posters even had the very same number conclusions I have, 8%, 7%, & 5%.
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I would buy 100% gasoline(E0) even when it rose 10% to 12% above the price of 10% ethanol blends. A recent problem has occurred tho, with the collapse of the prices of oil, due to the Saudi desire to run expensive methods of oil production out of business. Low turnover fuel stations(high ethanol & no-ethanol (E85 & E0)), both, at the wholesale phase & retail phase, have NOT been able to replenish with low cost fuels, as quickly as high turnover fuel stations(Costco, Arco, etc) have been able to replenish with low cost 10% ethanol blends. This has caused the price gap between 10% ethanol blends & E85&E0 to widen to 25% to 40% & even more in some places.

 

[DRS]

Beyond the 3% energy decrease of ethanol, ethanol needs high compression ratio(16:1) ethanol engines to effectively release its energy. Ethanol used(not burned effectively) in low compression ratio(9:1 to 12:1) gasoline engines cannot release its energy effectively. I have many years EACH, comparing 10% ethanol blends to 100% gasoline(E0) for 3 cars, showing 8%, 7%, & 5% increased mpg with E0. All engines run smoother, quieter & with a trace extra low rpm torque, such that less downshifting is necessary when ascending hills. My present 2013 Elantra is showing the same effect, of 8% mpg improvement burning E0 vs 10% ethanol blends. FYI, my Elantra has many complaints of low mpg & finally had to be downgraded in EPA mpg ratings. My present AVERAGE using E0 is 39mpg, with 15% city driving.



In essence, this post proves that ethanol engine engineers & gasoline engine engineers know how to design their specific engines.



The recent Saudi efforts to collapse oil prices is hurting low turnover stations selling E0, who can't clear their tanks of high priced E0 true gasoline as fast as high turnover 10% ethanol blend stations(Costco, Arco, others) refresh with low priced 10% ethanol blend fuels. Thus, E0 is presently selling for 25% to 40% more than low priced 10% ethanol blends.

^ +1 E0 is the way to go if it can be found. The reasons for mileage increase several times the quoted "3%", is explained well above n

 

[427435]

The compression ratio is just a false flag.

You don't have to run 14:1 compression with pure ethanol. It will run just fine at 9:1. Can you run it at a higher compression and get more efficiency, sure.

With E10, the ethanol is mixedwith gasoline and the combined octane is what is being sold and used. And the optimum compression ratio is based on the combined octane.

Again, even at a lower compression, there are BTU's created when the ethanol portion of E10 is ignited. Basic thermodynamics says you will get some benefit from those BTU's in an internal combustion engine.

And, again, E85 testing gets exactly what you would expect from the energy content of E85. So will E10 if proper (and repeatable) testing is done.

 

[litesong]

......ethanol......It will run just fine at 9:1. Can you run it at a higher compression and get more efficiency, sure.

E85 testing gets exactly what you would expect from the energy content of E85......

427435 tries to get the last propagandistic "ethanol in gasoline" post......& fails miserably in its collapsed untruth.

E85, only gets its "expected" energy content because E85 isn't 85% ethanol. Because ethanol is having ignition problems in colder northern states, EPA regulated E85 can officially have as little as 51% ethanol AND OFFICIALLY CAN'T HAVE MORE THAN 83%. In practice E85 comes nowhere near 83% & normally averages below 70%(closer to 60%?). Instead of only 15% real 100% gasoline(E0, the truly efficient power producer in flex fuel gasoline engines) in E85, E85 normally has 35% to 40+% E0. If E85 was truly E85(15%-E0), flex-fuel vehicles would probably only produce 50+% of the mpg of E0 combustion(maybe less). The "ethanol in gasoline" industry knows that ethanol doesn't work efficiently in low compression ratio gasoline engines & supported EPA regulations to limit E85 to a much lower percentage level than 85%. THE "ETHANOL IN GASOLINE" INDUSTRY WORKS HARD TO KEEP ETHANOL IN GASOLINE TO LOWER LEVELS SO THE TRUTH OF ETHANOL INCOMPATIBILITY IN GASOLINE ENGINES ISN'T SO OBVIOUS. True E85(15%-E0) would have readily shown the worthlessness of ethanol, as used in flex-fuel gasoline engines.

Even with the hidden raised amount of E0 blended into E85, drivers with flex-fuel vehicles still complain & do NOT use E85 much..... because E85 still has ~ 60% ethanol in it.

Ethanol engines need 100% ethanol......for efficiency. Gasoline engines(including flex-fuel) need 100% gasoline(E0)......for efficiency.

 

[427435]

427435 tries to get the last propagandistic "ethanol in gasoline" post......& fails miserably in its collapsed untruth.

E85, only gets its "expected" energy content because E85 isn't 85% ethanol. Because ethanol is having ignition problems in colder northern states, EPA regulated E85 can officially have as little as 51% ethanol AND OFFICIALLY CAN'T HAVE MORE THAN 83%. In practice E85 comes nowhere near 83% & normally averages below 70%(closer to 60%?). Instead of only 15% real 100% gasoline(E0, the truly efficient power producer in flex fuel gasoline engines) in E85, E85 normally has 35% to 40+% E0. If E85 was truly E85(15%-E0), flex-fuel vehicles would probably only produce 50+% of the mpg of E0 combustion(maybe less). The "ethanol in gasoline" industry knows that ethanol doesn't work efficiently in low compression ratio gasoline engines & supported EPA regulations to limit E85 to a much lower percentage level than 85%. THE "ETHANOL IN GASOLINE" INDUSTRY WORKS HARD TO KEEP ETHANOL IN GASOLINE TO LOWER LEVELS SO THE TRUTH OF ETHANOL INCOMPATIBILITY IN GASOLINE ENGINES ISN'T SO OBVIOUS. True E85(15%-E0) would have readily shown the worthlessness of ethanol, as used in flex-fuel gasoline engines.

Even with the hidden raised amount of E0 blended into E85, drivers with flex-fuel vehicles still complain & do NOT use E85 much..... because E85 still has ~ 60% ethanol in it.

Ethanol engines need 100% ethanol......for efficiency. Gasoline engines(including flex-fuel) need 100% gasoline(E0)......for efficiency.

When did you take your thermodynamic and engine theory courses? I took mine back in the 60's---------------but I'm not aware of any basics changing in the years since.

As for comparing actual EPA mpg results with theoretical estimates based on BTU content, do you really think the fuel used in the tests would vary all over the map?

 

[litesong]

When did you take your thermodynamic and engine theory courses? I took mine back in the 60's--------------

427435 tries to reinforce its "ethanol in gasoline" industry propaganda, as it tries to state that ethanol, which efficiently releases its energy in high compression ratio ethanol engines, also releases the same energy in low compression ratio gasoline engines. Of course, 427435 is wrong.

Thermodynamics were incorporated in aerodynamics, space mechanics, & jet & rocket propulsions classes, completing my aeronautical degree.

 

[litesong]

As for comparing actual EPA mpg results with theoretical estimates based on BTU content, do you really think the fuel used in the tests would vary all over the map?

I speak of E85 blends, as flex-fuel drivers encounter it, at the rare(& rarer?) E85 stations, because few (& fewer?) drivers use E85. Of course, E85 users would use even less E85, if they realized that the great amount of encountered E85...... ain't within 20%(25+%?) of the E85 advertised 85% ethanol percentage, drivers think they are using(not burning, because ethanol doesn't burn properly in gasoline engines).

 

[Gunkk]

Ooooh, internet fight!

Why do drag racers use racing fuel?

Ethanol sucks and Diesel sucks, and the more gasoline contains either of these two, the more it sucks.

 

[daviderle]

^+1, although watching two rocket scientists working on the same problem, does not usually end well...

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[427435]

427435 tries to reinforce its "ethanol in gasoline" industry propaganda, as it tries to state that ethanol, which efficiently releases its energy in high compression ratio ethanol engines, also releases the same energy in low compression ratio gasoline engines. Of course, 427435 is wrong.

Thermodynamics were incorporated in aerodynamics, space mechanics, & jet & rocket propulsions classes, completing my aeronautical degree.

So you didn't have to take a whole year of thermodynamics classes. Back in the day, they told the ones that didn't need all 3 quarters of thermo, to drop out of the 1st quarter as it was the flunk out course for ME's. That was back in the day when they wanted to flunk out students.

And you are wrong. The BTU's in ethanol get released regardless of the compression in the engine. Those BTU's help push the piston down, pure and simple. It is impossible for those BTU's not to contribute to the work of the engine.

The E85 vehicles, with a fixed compression ratio, run fine with all kinds of ethanol/gas mixtures-----------both on regular gas and with E85. And they get the mpg, that the BTU content would indicate, when running the max ethanol concentration with a compression ratio that also allows pure gasoline to be used efficiently.

Those are the real facts.

By the way, how much stock do you have in big oil???

 

[Aquineas]

It's very clear who the shill is here.

 

[427435]

It's very clear who the shill is here.

How about dealing with the FACTS instead. BTU's are BTU's.

 

[litesong]

BTU's are BTU's.

Ethanol btus are efficiently generated in high compression ratio (16:1) ethanol engines. Ethanol btus are NOT efficiently generated in low compression ratio (9:1 to 11:1) gasoline engines.

 

[litesong]

It's very clear who the shill is here.

Thank you, Aquineas. Often when I post my data of the inferiority of ethanol fuel used (but not burned efficiently) in gasoline engines, & then show the obvious engineering difference between ethanol engines & gasoline engines, the "ethanol in gasoline" industry propagandists crawl out of their mouse holes, to plaster their mouse droppings on auto websites.

Even people who may weakly agree with me, shuffle off to parts unknown. Then the industry shills pile on top of me.

Again, Aquineas. Thank you.

 

[427435]

Ethanol btus are efficiently generated in high compression ratio (16:1) ethanol engines. Ethanol btus are NOT efficiently generated in low compression ratio (9:1 to 11:1) gasoline engines.

That's obvious nonsense. The compression ratios of E85 cars all fall in the range of 9:1 to 11:1 and all make almost exactly the mpg that one would expect from the BTU's in E85 gas.

FACTS are FACTS.

 

[427435]

Thank you, Aquineas. Often when I post my data of the inferiority of ethanol fuel used (but not burned efficiently) in gasoline engines, & then show the obvious engineering difference between ethanol engines & gasoline engines, the "ethanol in gasoline" industry propagandists crawl out of their mouse holes, to plaster their mouse droppings on auto websites.

Even people who may weakly agree with me, shuffle off to parts unknown. Then the industry shills pile on top of me.

Again, Aquineas. Thank you.

Since when is pointing out accurate info being a shill??

What is your cause? World hunger or what?? You certainly don't understand thermodynamics and the internal combustion engine well.

 

[427435]

Maybe this is a better way of explaining it.

An engine with 10:1 compression produces so much hp/hrs from 100,000 BTU's from pure gas.

That same engine will produce the same hp/hrs from 100,000 BTU's from ethanol.

Comprehend????

 

[litesong]

Originally Posted by litesong View Post
Ethanol btus are efficiently generated in high compression ratio (16:1) ethanol engines. Ethanol btus are NOT efficiently generated in low compression ratio (9:1 to 11:1) gasoline engines.
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427435 muffed:
The compression ratios of E85 cars all fall in the range of 9:1 to 11:1 and all make almost exactly the mpg that one would expect from the BTU's in E85 gas.
/////////
litesong wrote:
E85 ain't 85% ethanol, almost never 80%, seldom in the 70-80%, but often in the 51% to 69% range. Real-world E85(60% ethanol?) mpg most often can't get 70%-75% mpg of E0. Actual E85(85% ethanol-no such animal!) might not get 60% mpg of E0 & probably 50+% of E0 mpg.

In essence, E85 trades on the over-percentage of E0(35-40%) in E85 to raise its mpg, due to poor use(inefficient burning in gasoline engines) of ethanol.

 

[litesong]

An engine with 10:1 compression produces so much hp/hrs from 100,000 BTU's from pure gas.

That same engine will produce the same hp/hrs from 100,000 BTU's from ethanol.

Of course, NOT!!

Ethanol, with an octane of 114, used(not efficiently burned) in a gasoline engine, suppresses its initial burning in a gasoline engine designed to ignite 87 octane gasoline efficiently. This means the ethanol is late burning & can't take advantage of the power stroke that was designed to burn 87 octane gasoline efficiently. The compression ratio is too low to release ALL the btus available in ethanol, plus what ethanol btus are released in a low compression ratio gasoline engine, are most often released TOO LATE to take advantage of the power stroke. Ha ha ha---many "ethanol in gasoline" industry propagandists talk of the cooling effect of ethanol in gasoline engines, as if it is an advantage. The cooling effect of ethanol used in gasoline engines is more evidence that the ethanol missed the power stroke timing.

Both the oil industry AND "ethanol in gasoline" industry knew all this from the beginning. Both the oil industry & "ethanol in gasoline" industry profit from the inefficiency of ethanol used (not burned efficiently) in a gasoline engine.