It's early, but your thoughts on the 2015 Genesis?

[GenesisCaptain]

Table steaks.

I like to eat when I gamble.

 

[WowCool]

Table steaks. Ya gotta love that. Aren't idioms a bitch? The best one though is the guy who wanted to know where to buy new power bands for his Porsche.

Or the lady in Ca who's older Beetle broke down, she called AAA and told them
to hurry, also she told them there was a spare engine in the trunk

 

[Mark_888]

Not only does the Sonata have a higher ATP than the Camry, so does the Kia Optima.

That is totally irrelevant. The fact is that a very large percent of Camry and Accord buyers don't consider a Sonata. That situation has improved over the years, but is still true. This has been stated many, many times as a major marketing challenge for Hyundai, and is one of the main reasons they sell the Genesis at very low (or non-existent) profit margins in the USA, and also why they import the Equus (both to build the Hyundai brand image).

In addition, a comparably equipped Sonata sells for less than a comparably equipped Camry or Accord, again for the same reason as stated above. The fact that a Sonata has a high ATP, just means that they sell them with more options or higher trim levels than the average Camry or Accord.

 

[Mark_888]

Hyundai absolutely positioned the Genesis as a LS, 7, S competitor at its release. I will try to dig up the C&D article with the corporate marketing speak. At that time, the Equus name did not exist, and there was no mention of a larger and more luxurious car at the Genesis introduction.

It is hard to say about "positioning" since I am not sure they really knew in advance who would purchase a Genesis (and they probably still have that issue going forward). With such a wide price differential between Base Trim ($35K) and R-Spec models ($46K) it is hard to say that both models are going after one market segment.

Back in 2009, John Krafcik (CEO of HMA up until end of 2013) said (during a Car and Driver video review of Genesis) from an engineering standpoint they had their eye on the Infiniti M and BMW 5, but that does not mean from a marketing viewpoint they are limiting themselves to those buyers since the Genesis is larger than either of those. He did say in 2009 that they were not aiming for a Lexus LS, because they wanted something with a much firmer suspension and didn't want anything nearly as soft as Lexus. A lot has changed since 2009, and the Genesis is softer and the Lexus LS is much firmer than before (especially in sport mode).

The Genesis (and often other Hyundai's) are so much lower priced than their equivalent competition, that often they are competing against other cars with the same price, and not with the same design/features, so it makes figuring out the market audience even that much more difficult to determine.

In the final analysis, they build cars, and even though the marketing people like to think they know exactly what they are doing, they don't really know in advance about who will end up buying their cars. This is rather obvious from the constant surveys on Hyundai Think Tank and other market research data they pay others to collect for them, so they can try and figure out who their customers are.

 

[Phillig]

For what it's worth. I will be moving out of a Lexus LS430 into a 2015 Genesis instead of a LS460 is how much I like it. I have never been a MB fan and don't think long-term reliability of the BMW's are worth investing much money in them. The Audi's are really the only other make in the running for me before I settled on the Genesis.

 

[rminor]

I never would have called that. The Azera is totally different in size and function. The Avalon is significantly larger than the Azera. I can't imagine someone shopping for an Avalon would consider the smaller Azera. Now, I could see someone shopping for an Accord or Camry jumping up to an Azera. They are similarly sized and functioning cars. The Azera is just much nicer.

I think it is a mistake because the Avalon is a standard-setter in its class, and the Azera will always lose if compared on the Avalon's terms. It is the size difference. The Azera is barely larger than a Camry. An Avalon is massive, especially in the back seat and trunk."

Not sure where you got your info. I just did a comparison between the Azera and the Avalon on CR. They are very close. The Avalon is 240lb lighter, 2" longer, 1" less WB. The rear seat comfort was rated the same, Avalon 1" less fore-aft room. The trunks rated same capacity. The Camry is smaller in every way. 500lb lighter. I owned an Azera and a friend had a Camry. They weren't close to comparable in size.

 

[Mark_888]

Not sure where you got your info. I just did a comparison between the Azera and the Avalon on CR. They are very close. The Avalon is 240lb lighter, 2" longer, 1" less WB. The rear seat comfort was rated the same, Avalon 1" less fore-aft room. The trunks rated same capacity. The Camry is smaller in every way. 500lb lighter. I owned an Azera and a friend had a Camry. They weren't close to comparable in size.

I agree with your analysis, except for one thing. Not everyone is looking at comparably sized cars when shopping. Having been on this forum for quite a while, and read the logic of posters who explained which other cars they were considering besides the Genesis Sedan (including those who decided to get something else), a lot of the "other" cars a quite a bit different in size.

Likewise, RWD vs FWD vs AWD is not always what determines which cars are being considered. I have seen people trying to decide between a FWD car and a Genesis Sedan (RWD) and the drive system did not seem to be the determining factor (although it clearly is for some people). One reason for that may be that even though RWD generally handles better, and has better F/R weight distribution, FWD does have advantages in inclement weather, so it is not always cut and dried as to which is better.

So, some people may comparison shop Genesis with LS460, and others may compare it to a Avalon (or ES350).

 

[Alwaysforward]

One reason for that may be that even though RWD generally handles better, and has better F/R weight distribution...

You hit the nail on the head Mark. We test drove a 2012 Genesis back in 2012 and had to settle for a Honda for my wife because we couldn't make the deal work. When I drove that car I fell in love with the ride. The whole package. It handled great with great power.

After driving nothing but FWD cars for the past 12 years (except my F250 V10), I am ready to strap into a RWD car with power again. Looking forward to the new Gennys hitting the lots so I can test drive one. I am looking forward to March when they release information on the Performance Genesis.

 

[EXBMWGUY]

I agree with your analysis, except for one thing. Not everyone is looking at comparably sized cars when shopping. Having been on this forum for quite a while, and read the logic of posters who explained which other cars they were considering besides the Genesis Sedan (including those who decided to get something else), a lot of the "other" cars a quite a bit different in size.



Likewise, RWD vs FWD vs AWD is not always what determines which cars are being considered. I have seen people trying to decide between a FWD car and a Genesis Sedan (RWD) and the drive system did not seem to be the determining factor (although it clearly is for some people). One reason for that may be that even though RWD generally handles better, and has better F/R weight distribution, FWD does have advantages in inclement weather, so it is not always cut and dried as to which is better.



So, some people may comparison shop Genesis with LS460, and others may compare it to a Avalon (or ES350).

My 2-year, 89,000 mile relationship with an Avalon was purely that of utility. It was user/appliance and no more, because I needed something I could carry people/stuff in, reliability and with no real worries about becoming stranded. I didn't care about RWD, FWD or AWD, and I didn't cross shop it with anything because it pretty much owned it's size category at the time.

The car was perfect until one week after I sold it (reluctantly to someone I knew who begged to buy the car). It then sort of disintegrated, beginning with $2,200 worth of headlight problems, steering, and on and on.

 

[Imbuer]

I agree, no sunroof, but I really want all the electronics particularly radar cruise and lane keep for long highway trips. And rear cross traffic recently saved my butt in a rental Taurus. I am glad, however, that it will not have start/stop.

My 2010 4.6 has been a pretty darn good car, and I'm very much looking forward to the 2015 R.

Had my fill of BMW's reliability problems, and tried several times, but never could negotiate a fair price for a new Infiniti M or Lexus GS. And they both drive similar to the Genesis.

Was looking seriously at a Macan, despite the different vehicle type, but it will have less of the features I want, and will be priced over $20k higher for smaller space. Not to mention they are about "pre-sold out" right now.

I think if Hyundai can just get people to test drive it and point out all the great new features, they will sell more, but they need to be more innovative in their marketing, such as many more drive events at other than dealers lots.

Only criticisms are that it needs more supportive/comfortable seats, better nav and a three spoke steering wheel.

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[BrazGenesis]

I agree with your analysis, except for one thing. Not everyone is looking at comparably sized cars when shopping. Having been on this forum for quite a while, and read the logic of posters who explained which other cars they were considering besides the Genesis Sedan (including those who decided to get something else), a lot of the "other" cars a quite a bit different in size.

Likewise, RWD vs FWD vs AWD is not always what determines which cars are being considered. I have seen people trying to decide between a FWD car and a Genesis Sedan (RWD) and the drive system did not seem to be the determining factor (although it clearly is for some people). One reason for that may be that even though RWD generally handles better, and has better F/R weight distribution, FWD does have advantages in inclement weather, so it is not always cut and dried as to which is better.

So, some people may comparison shop Genesis with LS460, and others may compare it to a Avalon (or ES350).

Very interesting points.

It seems, anyway, that the Lexus brand is the big competitor.
I understand that GS and ES are Camry based. And LS is Avalon based. Is that correct?
Is it correct to say that Equus is the real competitor to LS?
Thanks!

 

[Mark_888]

Very interesting points.

It seems, anyway, that the Lexus brand is the big competitor.
I understand that GS and ES are Camry based. And LS is Avalon based. Is that correct?
Is it correct to say that Equus is the real competitor to LS?
Thanks!

• GS is its own platform (RWD).
• For a long time ES (FWD) was Camry based, but is now Avalon (FWD) based.
• LS (RWD) is its own platform.

I don't know what is the biggest competitor to Genesis. I have seen some people compare it with Camaro (and choose Camaro). Some compare it with LS, and go with Genesis to save $20K. I am not sure there is a consensus on what the competition is for Genesis, especially since a lot of Genesis buyers were former Hyundai owners.

 

[Cut-Throat]

• GS is its own platform (RWD).
• For a long time ES (FWD) was Camry based, but is now Avalon (FWD) based.
• LS (RWD) is its own platform.

Right !..... And the Genesis was always targeted at the GS. I believe the first Genesis Super Bowl ad mentioned the price of the GS.

 

[BrazGenesis]

• GS is its own platform (RWD).
• For a long time ES (FWD) was Camry based, but is now Avalon (FWD) based.
• LS (RWD) is its own platform.

I don't know what is the biggest competitor to Genesis. I have seen some people compare it with Camaro (and choose Camaro). Some compare it with LS, and go with Genesis to save $20K. I am not sure there is a consensus on what the competition is for Genesis, especially since a lot of Genesis buyers were former Hyundai owners.

Many thanks Mark. As you see I was completely wrong in my assumptions...
My neighbor just got a beautiful brand new white ES. My perception was that her car was smaller than mine (Gen).
Now i guess I can assume it is THE competitor.
Interesting to say that she had a Mercedes C250. Now she seems marveled at the luxury and on board electronics of the ES.

 

[Mark_888]

Many thanks Mark. As you see I was completely wrong in my assumptions...
My neighbor just got a beautiful brand new white ES. My perception was that her car was smaller than mine (Gen).
Now i guess I can assume it is THE competitor.
Interesting to say that she had a Mercedes C250. Now she seems marveled at the luxury and on board electronics of the ES.

Before a couple of years ago when ES was based on Camry, it definitely was smaller than Genesis. Even now that the ES is Avalon based, it may still be somewhat smaller than Genesis, I am not sure (especially since 2015 Genesis is larger inside than before).

As I mentioned before, some people just compare all the cars in the same price range as the competition (even if they are different sizes, etc), and others compare the Genesis to a LS, S Class, or 7 series and figure on saving some big bucks with the Genesis.

 

[ksoze]

I have seen some people compare it with Camaro (and choose Camaro).

The Chevy Camaro and Genesis comparison seems pretty crazy to me. The only thing they share is four wheels, seats and an internal combustion engine. Two totally different car segments which I would have never thought would be compared together.

 

[YEH]

That is totally irrelevant. The fact is that a very large percent of Camry and Accord buyers don't consider a Sonata. That situation has improved over the years, but is still true. This has been stated many, many times as a major marketing challenge for Hyundai, and is one of the main reasons they sell the Genesis at very low (or non-existent) profit margins in the USA, and also why they import the Equus (both to build the Hyundai brand image).

In addition, a comparably equipped Sonata sells for less than a comparably equipped Camry or Accord, again for the same reason as stated above. The fact that a Sonata has a high ATP, just means that they sell them with more options or higher trim levels than the average Camry or Accord.

It's not irrelevant at all since that's the actual market place speaking.

A large % of Camry and Accord buyers don't consider anything else but a Camry or Accord - not the Altima, Passat, Malibu or Fusion (and besides, where do you think the massive growth in Sonata and Optima sales over the past 4-5 years has come from? Not from the domestics. Combined Sonata/Optima sales is right up there w/ the Accord).

Also, whereby Honda has been able to largely keep sales volume on the Accord and keep up its ATP, Camry sales has increasingly been reliant on heavy discounting/aggressive pricing from Toyota (as well as rental fleet sales).

And the fact that Hyundai sells more higher trim/priced Sonatas than Toyota does the Camry just affirms that Sonata buyers have a higher income/education level than Camry buyers; same goes for Elantra buyers vs. Corolla buyers.

Back during the 1980s - there were many domestic buyers who would not consider the Camry or Accord, despite the 2 being better products.

I agree with your analysis, except for one thing. Not everyone is looking at comparably sized cars when shopping. Having been on this forum for quite a while, and read the logic of posters who explained which other cars they were considering besides the Genesis Sedan (including those who decided to get something else), a lot of the "other" cars a quite a bit different in size.

Likewise, RWD vs FWD vs AWD is not always what determines which cars are being considered. I have seen people trying to decide between a FWD car and a Genesis Sedan (RWD) and the drive system did not seem to be the determining factor (although it clearly is for some people). One reason for that may be that even though RWD generally handles better, and has better F/R weight distribution, FWD does have advantages in inclement weather, so it is not always cut and dried as to which is better.

So, some people may comparison shop Genesis with LS460, and others may compare it to a Avalon (or ES350).

While RWD vs FWD vs AWD is not always determinant, generally those things and size/passenger room are impt. factors.

For instance, the Genesis' best selling markets are in the sun belt whereas it struggles in the snow belt due to the lack of AWD, being a RWD model.

Lexus execs have stated that there isn't much cross-shopping btwn its models.

Despite being about the same size, GS buyers tend to be diff. than ES buyers.

But it's not just the price - the ES and IS are around the same ballpark, but buyers of a softer riding, near fullsize sedan generally are not going to be interested in a sport-oriented RWD compact sedan and vice versa.

Both the Infiniti M and Lexus GS saw sales drop precipitously when the Genesis had a full year of sales in 2009, and when they brought out a new generation, neither came close to the sales of its predecessor (despite both being much improved).

The current gen M in its 1st year of sale sold 14k (launched in 2010) whereas its predecessor sold over 24k.

The current GS in its 1st year of sale sold 22k (launched in 2012) whereas its predecessor sold over 33k.

Those are huge hits on sales for successor models, made even worse by further declines in sales.

Meanwhile, the new ES is going gangbusters for Lexus, selling about as well as it ever has.

When the 2G Genesis launches, it will be the GS and M which will suffer a hit to sales and not the ES.

 

[Mark_888]

It's not irrelevant at all since that's the actual market place speaking.

A large % of Camry and Accord buyers don't consider anything else but a Camry or Accord - not the Altima, Passat, Malibu or Fusion (and besides, where do you think the massive growth in Sonata and Optima sales over the past 4-5 years has come from? Not from the domestics. Combined Sonata/Optima sales is right up there w/ the Accord).

Also, whereby Honda has been able to largely keep sales volume on the Accord and keep up its ATP, Camry sales has increasingly been reliant on heavy discounting/aggressive pricing from Toyota (as well as rental fleet sales).

And the fact that Hyundai sells more higher trim/priced Sonatas than Toyota does the Camry just affirms that Sonata buyers have a higher income/education level than Camry buyers; same goes for Elantra buyers vs. Corolla buyers.

Back during the 1980s - there were many domestic buyers who would not consider the Camry or Accord, despite the 2 being better products.




While RWD vs FWD vs AWD is not always determinant, generally those things and size/passenger room are impt. factors.

For instance, the Genesis' best selling markets are in the sun belt whereas it struggles in the snow belt due to the lack of AWD, being a RWD model.

Lexus execs have stated that there isn't much cross-shopping btwn its models.

Despite being about the same size, GS buyers tend to be diff. than ES buyers.

But it's not just the price - the ES and IS are around the same ballpark, but buyers of a softer riding, near fullsize sedan generally are not going to be interested in a sport-oriented RWD compact sedan and vice versa.

Both the Infiniti M and Lexus GS saw sales drop precipitously when the Genesis had a full year of sales in 2009, and when they brought out a new generation, neither came close to the sales of its predecessor (despite both being much improved).

The current gen M in its 1st year of sale sold 14k (launched in 2010) whereas its predecessor sold over 24k.

The current GS in its 1st year of sale sold 22k (launched in 2012) whereas its predecessor sold over 33k.

Those are huge hits on sales for successor models, made even worse by further declines in sales.

Meanwhile, the new ES is going gangbusters for Lexus, selling about as well as it ever has.

When the 2G Genesis launches, it will be the GS and M which will suffer a hit to sales and not the ES.

Glad you finally admitted that your Camry ATP is skewed lower by fleet sales, and also that an alarming percentage of Camry or Accord buyers don't even consider Sonata, even though Sonata clearly has more features for the money.

I never said that Genesis main competitor is ES. Genesis has no single main competitor (not even a small group of competitors). A lot of Genesis buyers are previous Hyundai owners and didn't really consider any other brand.

I would bet money that next generation sales of Genesis will fall short of the targets you mentioned.

 

[YEH]

Glad you finally admitted that your Camry ATP is skewed lower by fleet sales, and also that an alarming percentage of Camry or Accord buyers don't even consider Sonata, even though Sonata clearly has more features for the money.

I never said that Genesis main competitor is ES. Genesis has no single main competitor (not even a small group of competitors). A lot of Genesis buyers are previous Hyundai owners and didn't really consider any other brand.

I would bet money that next generation sales of Genesis will fall short of the targets you mentioned.

Um, the Sonata and Optima also have fleet sales, so does the Fusion, Malibu and esp. the Chrysler 200, and yet, the Camry has an ATP even lower than the 200.

Toyota is becoming like the old GM, relying on its past history (for reliability) and heavy discounting/aggressive pricing to keep up sales volume.

The vast majority of Hyundai owners would have not been able to afford the Genesis, much less the V8, esp. when the Genesis 1st launched (Hyundai didn't really start attracting higher income/education buyers in any great nos. until the YF Sonata was launched and it was launched after the Genesis).

I'll take that bet.

Hyundai sold 23k Genesis in 2012 - so around 30k should be doable as AWD usually makes up 40-50% of RWD-based luxury sedan sales.

 

[Mark_888]

I'll take that bet.

Hyundai sold 23k Genesis in 2012 - so around 30k should be doable as AWD usually makes up 40-50% of RWD-based luxury sedan sales.

You have constantly claimed that you are not in the auto business and/or have no inside contacts to Hyundai, but you claim to know the breakdown between Genesis Sedan and Genesis Coupe sales, which Hyundai does not release. You also claim to know a lot of other stuff that is not public.

I really don't care about how many 2015 Genesis are sold. I don't even care right now what options it will have, since it is not even available yet. But Hyundai has been candid about disappointing Genesis sales recently, even though it is quite heavily advertised given its low unit volumes.